Having Fun In Subway Dancer

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:22 pm

bet51987 wrote:I will be the last player looking around for someone to play with.

You may have to get out of SD eventually tho

I'll play as long there are servers up w/ decent levels (Damage, Hell Fire, Elysium, BTC, Halcyon to name a few). Feel free to drop by

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:06 pm

{OSS}Paedric wrote:It really is a matter of taste as to whether or not a level is bad. Much like musical tastes (or lack there of). What is considered trash by one demographic is considered poetry by another.

Allow me to clarify. What I meant to say was that the criticism of Minerva is largely based on the opinion that it's overplayed whereas the criticism of Subway Dancer is largely based on the opinion that it's a poor level in the first place.

I didn't mean to imply that they weren't opinions. =)

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:10 pm

bet51987 wrote: Then, if and when, the servers are all gone, I'll find a boyfriend and make him play. He WILL learn and he WILL play.
(And no smart remarks.....my guns are drawn.)
Bettina

Haha! Good luck! In my experience, Descent 3 tears apart relationships. It's very difficult to find anyone who's willing to play this game beyond the point of humoring you. My friend Mike went as far as buying the game, joining my team, and playing in a couple D3TL matches. My ex-girlfriends? I gave them all copies of the game, but I don't even think they installed it. One told me she did, but then after I asked her some followup questions, it was clear she was lying.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:35 pm

Suncho wrote: Allow me to clarify. What I meant to say was that the criticism of Minerva is largely based on the opinion that it's overplayed whereas the criticism of Subway Dancer is largely based on the opinion that it's a poor level in the first place.

I didn't mean to imply that they weren't opinions. =)

There was no need for you to clarify, I understood what you meant.

What *I'm* trying to say is that Dancer (or ABEND or whatever level) isn't what is killing Descent 3. Age is what's killing it. Playing the blame game is not helpful. Age is the only enemy here. It's what, 5 years old at this point? The fan base has moved on and it was small to begin with. We are the last hold outs. 35 people on line last night. 35 people out of how many millions in the world? How are we to move the game forward? The game is no longer in stores. The advertising budget is nil. PXO is history. Word of mouth and Ebay are all we *may* have left unless they, the copyright holder, release D3 to the fan base. Is that likely to happen anytime soon? I got my copy bundled in with my sound card. That was 2 - 3 years ago when I upgraded the OEM card. I couldnâ??t even play D3 when it first was released due to its high system requirements (for the time).

The game has a fairly steep learning curve and you need a strong stomach to play it given the 360Â° of movement the game offers. Blasting away in a ground pounder with a machine gun is less taxing to the senses and kills come easier. My wife can't even watch me play. She gets vertigo because of all the looping around. Iâ??ve heard others say that this was a reason that they canâ??t/donâ??t play. Their nervous system just canâ??t handle it.

Suncho, I applauded your efforts to try and save D3. I don't agree with your methods, reasoning, or rhetoric but you are tying to make a difference and that's what counts. But we all need to stop bashing "this" (used generically) level or that group of players because we or they don't happen to have the same tastes. Remember, one person's trash is another person's poetry. Anything that gets people interested in the game and in the mines is good. Bad mouthing and putdowns are not constructive.

How many new pilots are out there? How many take the the time to learn the ins and outs of D3 when most are toast with in 3 seconds of entering a game. I've seen people leave after less than a minute of play in any given level. How many Level Designers are left? How many will want to put in their free time to create a labor of love just to have it trashed. Why not give constructive criticism. Explain where the flaws lie, why you consider it a flaw, and what might be done to rectify it.

I personally feel that PXO going down may be the final nail and that we are merely an anachronism, waiting for the sands of time to bury us. Fighting amongst ourselves will not help. (Sorry, it's late and I'm tired. Don't mean to be maudlin.)

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:31 pm

I don't believe Subway Dancer is killing D3 either. In fact I don't believe D3 is being killed.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:33 pm

Late and tired or not Paedric I think you are spot on with your comments.

Atan · Post by **Atan** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:48 pm

--- Subway is still a rancid piece of shiz...sorry.
ThunderBunny,

It's one thing to say you can't like it, other is to flame here. This goes too far in my opinion, sorry.
No watchdog here anymore?

I really can't see why just a few are thinking to own /*the knowledge*/ what good or bad
just by talking loud in the forums. Most of the other ppl are diving down then, a thing I saw during all the years watching the forum here.
Seeing some resistance last days let me hope, but nevertheless I think it's enough for me now.

See, that's an idea why D3 went down too, to much to loud selfnamed experts which are hunting down things they can't like, not skilled enough to play all kind of levels, or just following other meanings because the don't own one themselves.

So it's time for me to say Goodbye to my D3-friends, and to my dear 'enemys' too

I spent years in building stuff for D1, D2 and D3 and mostly it was a good time. I got a lot of feedback to all I did,
mostly nice ones, but sure I got some with really bad meanings too. Thanks for both.

Ok u guys like Suncho and ThunderBunny, it's your time now to do things better as I could,
as I did in more then one dekade...

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:09 pm

When people think of Subway Dancer, they think of the modded weapon version because that is what is played.

Subway Dancer the level = good.
Subway Dancer the mod = horribly unbalanced, bad.

If the modded version wasn't so unbalanced (I'd play it if it wasn't), there'd be a greater positive opinion on it.

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:38 pm

So it's time for me to say Goodbye to my D3-friends

Why are you quitting?....You still have disks, a computer, and a way of connecting to the D3 tracker. You still have missions loaded, and most of all....friends and enemys to kill.

I don't understand the logic to your statement.
Anyway, don't make me sad

Bettina

pipsqueak10 · Post by **pipsqueak10** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:29 pm

Atan, If you're tired and you've had enough go ahead and quit. Just don't leave because of someone's negative comments. While I'm not really a fan of SD,(I happen to love Blown Starship) I can certainly appreciate the work that obviously went into making the level. One thing you can say that many many others cannot is that you've created a level thats constantly being played. Many times people say something isn't good because THEY don't like it not because its actually good or bad. Regular SD is good and modded SD is bad. Who's to really say that. Its a personal opinion regardless of what the person that says it thinks. So if your leaving because of some negative comments I think you're making a mistake. If, however, you've had enough, by all means cya and good luck!

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:19 pm

bet51987 wrote:
Atan wrote:So it's time for me to say Goodbye to my D3-friends
Why are you quitting?....
I don't understand the logic to your statement.
Anyway, don't make me sad
Bettina

In case anyone doesn't know or hasn't figured it out yet, Atan in the creator of Subway Dancer. And I do not believe that he is solely reacting to the trashing of his level but the general attitude of a few very vocal members of the Descent BB. Itâ??s an attitude that I have also noticed and it's very negative towards that which is not considered worthy. It is part of what I was talking about earlier.

Honestly, if you are able to create a better constructed and more popular level than Dancer, then please do so. Otherwise keep the comments constructive or don't say anything at all. Saying that this level (or any level for that matter) is "a rancid piece of shiz", or it sucks, or even just bad is not constructive. Can this community really afford to lose an active level designer?

How many of you who have trashed this level have really looked at it? Did you notice the billboards? That's a bit of gaming history for you there. How about the little touches like trash and soda cans on the floor near the garbage cans and soda machines and people sitting on the benches waiting for their ride home? A couple of good sized dog fighting rooms, tunnels galore, what's not to love? At this point, I realize that I'm preaching to the choir but have you really tried to get past its flaws to see the whole picture?

Atan, I for one want to thank you for taking the time to create Dancer. It has a couple of flaws but is very nicely done. You have given me many hours of gaming goodness. I would hope that you will stay and create the successor to Dancer. But if you have truly had enough, then via con Dios Amigo. Thank you for your time and effort. Many of us really do appreciate it.

Thank you.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:29 pm

Atan wrote:See, that's an idea why D3 went down too, to much to loud selfnamed experts which are hunting down things they can't like, not skilled enough to play all kind of levels, or just following other meanings because the don't own one themselves.

I play subway dancer a lot. In fact, I've never lost in there. What I said was that I didn't like it.

Atan wrote:Ok u guys like Suncho and ThunderBunny, it's your time now to do things better as I could, as I did in more then one dekade...

What do you mean by "do things better as I could." I am not like Thunderbunny.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:45 pm

Suncho wrote:
Atan wrote:Ok u guys like Suncho and ThunderBunny, it's your time now to do things better as I could, as I did in more then one dekade...
What do you mean by "do things better as I could." I am not like Thunderbunny.

Loosely translated, "If you guys think that you're so smart, then design a better level than I did."

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:37 pm

A friend of mine said that Atan must be a true artist because a "true" artist never likes his work.
I wonder if that's true.

Anyway, Atan.....I didn't know you were the creator. Wow,

... I was born there. It was my first multiplayer game ever. I play others too, and I'm trying to do it more often, but I always come back to SD.

You should be proud of a level that is being played to capacity every single night. I know I'm proud of you. Hope you change your mind and come back.

Bettina

KaTaNa · Post by **KaTaNa** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:37 pm

Atan: I don't know if you'll see this, but SD IMHO, is a work of art for playability, MODs, and most of all....fun. Don't let the few naysayers get you down. If they don't like it, they don't have to play it.

Paedric: I see the basic form of the OSS logo I designed remains to this day...

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:11 pm

{OSS}Paedric wrote:Loosely translated, "If you guys think that you're so smart, then design a better level than I did."

What levels did you make, Atan?

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:24 pm

Suncho wrote: What levels did you make, Atan?

Descent Level Lords Homepage

Most of his work published here seems to be for Descent 2 single player.

8 more levels for D3 may be found ---> HERE <---

KaTaNa wrote: Paedric: I see the basic form of the OSS logo I designed remains to this day...

Your original had a good design. I updated it a bit is all.

DigiJo · Post by **DigiJo** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:04 am

and who will give us new features and bugfixes for d3edit? the last versions including d3edita3g are from atan

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:18 am

SD was downloaded and played once, and PROMPTLY removed from my HardDrive by the end of the Night.

Level is OK the REST IS SHIZ

Nightshade · Post by **Nightshade** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:18 am

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:31 am

BUBBALOU wrote:SD was downloaded and played once, and PROMPTLY removed from my HardDrive by the end of the Night.

Level is OK the REST IS SHIZ

Not constructive. What are the problems as you see it? What, in your opinion, might be done to improve upon the original? Come on people. Don't trash it, review it. What are its strengths and weaknesses? Where do the faults lie?

I've a good idea that most level desigers would welcome commentary on how they might improve upon their designs. None of them welcome this negative bashing and trashing that appears to be the order of the day.

I'll reiterate, if you can not offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, then do not waste our time by posting this shallow, negative commentary. You aren't being helpful. Indeed, you are part of the problem.

Bess · Post by **Bess** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:09 am

Atan, should you read this, I say *Thank You* for the levels that you have made for us to play, not only in D3, but D1 and D2 as well.
You have progressivly improved your design and artisty in each unfolding level, ending with the "Blown Starship". Your attention to detail is truly a work of art and I can not know how much time and effort you have put into these, as I do not have your imagination.

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:42 am

{OSS}Paedric wrote:I'll reiterate, if you can not offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, then do not waste our time by posting this shallow, negative commentary. You aren't being helpful. Indeed, you are part of the problem.

OK, how about this: The weapons in SD arn't even close to balanced, and encourage players to run around collecting as many missles as possible, only to then spew as many of them as possible as quickly as possible in the general direction of an enemy ship in hopes that something will hit its mark, instead of encouraging people to learn how to aim, lead, and dodge correctly. Furthermore, the heavy focus on overpowered secs leads to alot more hit and run style fighting, which depends on luck and fast reaction time in order to generate kills, rather than aim and movement skills.

I'm not saying that Atan stinks at making levels, or that subway dancer is killing Descent, but I am saying that the weapon balance in SD leaves something to be desired, and it changes the nature of the game, that is what gets old-school descenters. In D1 secondaries alone where virtually harmless if you know how to tri-chord- you had to use secondaries simply as "herders." In D1 multi, the point of secs was to force players into your primary fire. In SD, primaries are either completely unused (have have seen alot of people flying around just shooting secs, without even bothering to fire primaries), or primaries are used to "herd" people into secondaries. What got people hooked on D1 was the emphasis on movement- and SD did alot to shift the focus away from movement, and onto pulling the trigger really fast. That's what frustrates me in SD- There are secs you can't shake, there are secs that travel so fast (and track) that you can't dodge them, (different from the merc missle, because these aim themselves at the target, instead of you having to aim them) and there are missles you can fire at your enemy while running away. All of these encourage one to dump a bunch of missles and duck into a hole- in fact some FORCE you to duck into a hole, (megas, cyclones, and seeker mines) because you can't shake them or can't dodge them. My philosophy is this: if I want to play a game that relys on quick reaction time and hiding behind stuff, I'll play CounterStrike. If I want to play a game that relys on movement and leading skill, I'll play descent. My 2 cents of constructive criticism: if you mod weapons in descent, try to keep with the focus of the game (dog fighting) rather than adopting other games focuses. (quick reaction time)

DE-Hunter · Post by **DE-Hunter** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:50 am

I'm sorry to read that someone else don't have fun anymore to support D3. But I do understand Atan well since similar reasons made me quit playing Descent more than two years ago.
Anyhow, thanks for your level design work as well as for D3Server betatesting. I hope we'll stay in contact even w/o Descent.
(DE)Hunter

PS: And to make this clear: It's the so called community which leads to such reactions!

Nightmare USA · Post by **Nightmare USA** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:12 am

Yes Atan Thanks for all the work you have put in and for sharing your creativity. Some people feel that it is appropriate to act like asses, without regard to the targets of their word. I had people writing complete lies and slamming myh level because happen to be in RIP. That is how unhappy people act, what can I say life is good for me.

Oh yeah and thanks for all your scripting help! I have not decided to finish my level yet, and don't know if I will.

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:51 am

Nightmare USA wrote:Yes Atan Thanks for all the work you have put in and for sharing your creativity. Some people feel that it is appropriate to act like asses, without regard to the targets of their word. I had people writing complete lies and slamming myh level because happen to be in RIP. That is how unhappy people act, what can I say life is good for me.

Oh yeah and thanks for all your scripting help! I have not decided to finish my level yet, and don't know if I will.

Know that people bashing a level doesn't equate to bashing the author of that level. So, some of us don't like SD- it doesn't mean we don't like Atan, or whatever- it means we don't like SD.

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:13 pm

I am getting really annoyed at the SD bashing going on here

.
Someone starts a thread about how much fun he is having in SD, and the rest come on and bash the heck out of the level. Get a life.

SD is a great level. It's fun and many others think so too. That's why it's full every night. It seems the only one's who don't like it are the captains and generals with stars on their collars. Nobody has an advantage in SD. That's why the "superiors" don't like it.

If you guys got together and deleted all the levels you didn't like, there would only be a few left to
play. They would be full of experts, and boring for the little person like me.

Levels should be fun......and SD is....

I know I'm going to get bashed for this, but go easy please.

P.S. DE-Hunter.....I'm surprised at you. Your a great level builder. Sad, you don't play anymore.
Bettina

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:45 pm

{OSS}Paedric wrote:What are the problems as you see it? What, in your opinion, might be done to improve upon the original? Come on people. Don't trash it, review it. What are its strengths and weaknesses? Where do the faults lie?

Oh! I love this part.

1. Remove all the custom weapons.
2. Make each room unique in some way. Just because it's a subway doesn't mean that all the "stations" have to look exactly the same. It's *VERY* easy to get lost until you learn the level and when you spawn it takes a little while to figure out which area of the level you're in.
3. Less corners and sharp edges, and 90 degree angles. They're ugly.
4. I'd like to see smoother, more Descent-ish and probably darker textures... and darker lighting. I don't feel like I'm playing Descent when I'm in this level.
5. The tunnels are too small. There's no room to do anything except run and chase. A couple narrow areas are ok, but the whole tunnels shouldn't be like that.
6. Less clutter. Obstacles are fine, but it's annoying when they're really too small to effectively hide behind and only serve to get in the way.
7. After you've done all this stuff, show it to me again before you release it and I'll give you more feedback.

kufyit · Post by **kufyit** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:51 pm

What Suncho is saying is basically everything about the level sucks. To employ his suggestions would be to create an entirely new level.

Which, in my opinion, is the only hope for Subway Dancer.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:59 pm

I think keeping the overall subway theme is cool, but there aren't railroad ties in subways. Most of the layout is ok, but it needs to be altered to make the various parts of the levels more unique.

In theory, with the current layout, it could have the spaz-type flow to it where you can follow loops indefinitely. But the way it is now, it's all clogged up.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:00 pm

Partly because the whole level looks the same, it's also difficult to figure out where the loops cut each other off. One of the important things should be the ability to see a guy go down one tunnel and then go around the other way and cut him off where he comes out.

DE-Hunter · Post by **DE-Hunter** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:19 pm

@Bettina: I never wrote a level. I'm the author of the D3 server admin tool. But thanks anyway

FYI

Sligar · Post by **Sligar** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:27 pm

Bah, its not such a bad level. I have fun with it, and I'm a descenter from way back. Much as I love dogfighting, I think there's a place for this level and levels like it in the descent world. For one thing, its still largely playable when pings are too sucky for dogfighting. More importantly, skill is not as big a factor with SD, and that's a good thing. Its a great refuge for noobs from getting their butts handed to them in every other level. We want noobs to have fun and stick around to play, not get frustrated and leave after getting beat 40-0 for the hundredth time. So what if people don't get to exercise their finely tuned dogfite skills? That's kind of the point, really.

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:30 pm

Sorry DE Hunter......I thought you did Hyperspace.
But, it was another Hunter. (Pete Hunter)

Anyway.....Don't quit.

Bettina

pipsqueak10 · Post by **pipsqueak10** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:56 pm

Suncho, perhaps you can post a link to some of your levels. You seem to be an expert. I'm currently working on a level and can use some of your expert advice on level flow, custom obs, size of tunnels, etc. Mod, feel free to move this to Descent Development if you feel it is appropriate.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:10 pm

snoopy wrote:... that is what gets old-school descenters. ...

I *AM* an old school Descenter. I've been playing since 1995. Started with the D1 Demo. You can only speak for yourself here. Don't try and speak for all of us, you can't.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:15 pm

kufyit wrote:What Suncho is saying is...

Made perfectly clear in Suncho's own words. Thank you very much.

You know kufyit, it is possible to say that you don't personally like something with out saying it sucks. No one is saying that you *HAVE* to like it, but you should respect those of us who do like enough not to bash it. We're also a part of this community.

Burning Indika 3 isn't one of my personal favorites but I don't go around saying it "sucks" or "its a rancid piece of shiz" or it's a "bad" level. Its just not to my tastes is all. I don't bash the level or accuse the people who play it of being the downfall of civilization as we know it.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:37 pm

Thank you for your response Suncho. At least now I know where you're coming from. It may surprise you to note that I actually agree with a couple of points (more or less).

Suncho wrote:1. Remove all the custom weapons.....

Already available: No Mod Subway Dancer

2. Make each room unique in some way. ...

You do have a good point here. It is easy to lose one's bearings at first. A bit more variety between stations wouldn't hurt.

3. Less corners and sharp edges, and 90 degree angles. They're ugly.

My main experience is with the Boston "T". Nothing pretty there. I think he captured it pretty well.

4. I'd like to see smoother, more Descent-ish and probably darker textures...

Smoother? Maybe. Darker? Possibly in a few of the better lit tunnels down below.

5. The tunnels are too small. There's no room to do anything except run and chase. ...

Subway tunnels are usually only large enough to accept the train, and then only just. There are areas for dogfighting.

6. Less clutter. ...

Some of that "clutter" is actually very nice. It adds atmosphere to the level. Makes it feel more like a subway station.

7. After you've done all this stuff, show it to me again...

Now that sounds a bit presumptuous. And after a couple of very lucid posts too.

STRESSTEST · Post by **STRESSTEST** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:15 pm

Oh man, I saw this guy with green pants and yellow shoes today

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:38 pm

Suncho wrote:I think keeping the overall subway theme is cool, but there aren't railroad ties in subways. Most of the layout is ok, but it needs to be altered to make the various parts of the levels more unique.

In theory, with the current layout, it could have the spaz-type flow to it where you can follow loops indefinitely. But the way it is now, it's all clogged up.

Partly because the whole level looks the same, it's also difficult to figure out where the loops cut each other off. One of the important things should be the ability to see a guy go down one tunnel and then go around the other way and cut him off where he comes out.

I can understand your reasoning here. The level does take a while for one to find their way around due to the sameness of the stations. Once you get it, itâ??s not so bad. As far as the ties go, just because you don't see them, doesn't mean that they aren't there. This might depend on the age or location of the subway line in question.

Would you elucidate on "spaz-type flow"?