DescentBB

PAGE 2 OWNED MOTHERBITCHES WHAT!

mob-messenger wrote:MD seriously dude.... you must have never EVER actually OWNED a cat in your life. Put a cat on a leash and it would litteraly strangle itself before it allowed itself to be tied to something. Every cat I have owned, you put something constraining on it and it will bring out the claws and teeth on you or it will nearly kill itself getting away.

Did you even READ my post?! Seriously, get your eyes checked. Even though you are obviously not capable of reading posts entirely, believe it or not I actually did mention alternatives to leashes. You keep bringing up leashes like a broken record, and completely ignoring everything else I've said.

As for buying a cat to hunt, uuuuh yes it is actually very well known to have cats around to HUNT here. That is why farmers collect them by the dozens in order to keep mice problems down on their farmland. In town we also use them to keep the mice down.

Fine, I'll conceed that some people do buy cats to keep mice down. However, thats to be done on their own property. If you paid attention to the article linked to in this very thread, the aforementioned cats are being pests. They are in violation of the leash law, therefore they are fair game as far as the law is concerned.

It was funny that you mentioned that hawks can kill mice. Well, we have gazzillions of hawks around here. THEY DO NOT COME INTO TOWN!!

Which is not the case everywhere. Take a trip to Goleta, CA sometime. Theres atleast half a dozen hawks and peregrin falcons that I have personally seen just from the local park and my grandmother's back yard. I've seen them bedding down in groups (which I've come to understand is quite rare behavior) in the eucalyptus trees at the park.

We have had 3 cats in the house before, supurb hunters and we still get overwhelmed by mice.

I hear the Pied Piper is available....

Not a single person restrains a cat around here because they want cats to hunt.

See, here's what you're not understanding. In your area, its necessary for obvious reasons and is accepted by the neighborhood. However, in the neighborhood mentioned in the article, the offending felines are being pests and the owners are apparently not taking responsibility for their animals. Quite frankly, I could care less about their natural instincts. Hell, labradors are bird dogs, and as such they have a natural instinct to chase birds. By your logic, I should allow any lab I own to have free run of the neighborhood chasing every bird in sight no matter if they're welcome or not. Obviously, that would be illegal, but its the exact same thing with the cats. You already conceeded to this arguement, so why are you still defending it?!

Besides, if you don't use a leash, what are you going to do if a cat decides to go into the neighbors yard? Chase it?

Gee, I dunno....maybe call it by name?!

It is not within the laws of nature of a cat to be constrained. Unless you NEVER allow it to leave the house or see daylight, which will result in a very bored animal.

That is irrelevant, and you damn well know it. I suggest you get a copy of the Leash Law.

As for giving a cat away... easier said than done when everyone else in town has 2-3 cats of their own or a dog or two. :\

Its called advertising outside of your town.

wow Stryker, that blowgun stuff is seriously interesting .
and i never knew paintballs were so cheap.

if i were to take one of these into a paintball game, i'd also want facepaint and a loincloth

(edit: google seems to be giving me all indications that blowguns are illegal here in OZ. bleh)

MD-2389 wrote:Did you even READ my post?! Seriously, get your eyes checked. Even though you are obviously not capable of reading posts entirely, believe it or not I actually did mention alternatives to leashes. You keep bringing up leashes like a broken record, and completely ignoring everything else I've said.

Word for word. I said this because I was stating that there is no way to keep a cat restrained.

Fine, I'll conceed that some people do buy cats to keep mice down. However, thats to be done on their own property. If you paid attention to the article linked to in this very thread, the aforementioned cats are being pests. They are in violation of the leash law, therefore they are fair game as far as the law is concerned.

That is true to an extent, however the birdfeeder is actually the hazard. You are encouraging birds to occupy territory where predators are present. If you are out in the sticks. Fine. If they are in a rural area, birds should not be flocking into someones lawn. Birds are intended to search around for food and evade predators. Cats are intended by nature to hunt and search around for their source of food. If you stick a bird feeder in your yard, birds flock to it and it makes the birds a massive target for a cat or a dog.

Which is not the case everywhere. Take a trip to Goleta, CA sometime. Theres atleast half a dozen hawks and peregrin falcons that I have personally seen just from the local park and my grandmother's back yard. I've seen them bedding down in groups (which I've come to understand is quite rare behavior) in the eucalyptus trees at the park.

Yes, they do nestle in areas such as that but they are also an unnatural environment. Keep in mind that Hawks also hunt birds.

See, here's what you're not understanding. In your area, its necessary for obvious reasons and is accepted by the neighborhood. However, in the neighborhood mentioned in the article, the offending felines are being pests and the owners are apparently not taking responsibility for their animals. Quite frankly, I could care less about their natural instincts. Hell, labradors are bird dogs, and as such they have a natural instinct to chase birds. By your logic, I should allow any lab I own to have free run of the neighborhood chasing every bird in sight no matter if they're welcome or not. Obviously, that would be illegal, but its the exact same thing with the cats. You already conceeded to this arguement, so why are you still defending it?!

Dogs will attack humans over territory and they defecate/pee on your lawns/property killing your plants. Dogs also are known to attack children and adults. You conceeded to the issue of territory. Cats will not attack children walking around the neighborhood. You argue that they are an ecological hazard yet you state that you could care less about the laws of nature? I percieve a rather large hint of contradiction here.

Yes, I CONCEDED that in our argument over icq. But, I wanted to make it also clear on this board being that, this board is where the debate originated. My argument is mostly against people trying to state that cats are a hazard. You and I come from different worlds. My point is simply that cats have their place and their use.

What I will say is that owners DO NEED to spay or nueter their cats. This causes them to have less of a need to wander (to look for females or to hunt to provide food for their kittens). They will also breed less, causing less strays running around and less cats to hunt birds. This also solves the problem of owners cats coming home with infected wounds and being around small children with those infected wounds. Also if you get rid of bird feeders, cats will not be able to perform mass killings on birds and birds will be more aware of predators.

Exactly how do bird feeders help the environment? Particularly in rural areas? It's fine if you live out in the middle of nowhere and you do not keep cats or dogs around but you shouldn't be trying to encourage birds to congregate near their natural predators. They should naturally be aware of humans. We are the worst natural predator of all. Many little kids at one time or another will shoot a bird or throw rocks at birds as a kid for sport even if it is illegal.

I have heard someone argue that it will get them through colder parts of the year. Well, that is why birds instinctivly fly south during the winter to warmer regions. This would simply cause birds to loose that instinct. Wild birds should not be taught to depend on humans.

Gee, I dunno....maybe call it by name?!

What if the cat is not within range? Some cats will even ignore you. Especially if you attempt to restrain it and it is unhappy with that restraint.

That is irrelevant, and you damn well know it. I suggest you get a copy of the Leash Law.

The fact that you should not/ can not restrain a cat is irrelevant to the argument?

It is you that brought up the fact that you should leash or constrain a cat by whatever means necessary.

If it causes injury to the owner or death to the affected animal, then it is completely relevant to your argument.

BTW, I was referring to laws of nature in that argument. Not laws made by humans. Thus the leash law is a less relevant argument.

Its called advertising outside of your town.

Not when every single other town within your state has about 2-3 cats of their own. Also, it is much easier to have a CAT when it is unrestrained. The cat is happier and the owner is happier. It usually balances itself out rather well. This allows the cat to hunt for rodents and allows it to gain exercise and be something other than a lawn ornament. This also allows the cat the defecate somewhere that it will not cause a problem for its owners. A cat also covers its excrements up so that it is less likely to cause a problem.


Anyway, at this point we both look like idiots. It is apparent that you simply HATE cats when you probably have either never owned one and you apparently know nothing about owning one as a pet. :
Anyway, lets get on with our lives allready.

Fixed your quote tag for you. - MD

Just call up the SPCA or soemthing! Let THEM worry about the stupid cat! Then you don't have to do the legal limbo with the owner, and the cat can be put down if necessary!

roid wrote:wow Stryker, that blowgun stuff is seriously interesting .
and i never knew paintballs were so cheap.

if i were to take one of these into a paintball game, i'd also want facepaint and a loincloth

(edit: google seems to be giving me all indications that blowguns are illegal here in OZ. bleh)

Seriously? IIRC, the Aborigine tribes in Australia used blowguns for over a hundred years to hunt small game. Kind of a shame to ban them... the only way they can do serious damage to humans is if the darts are poisoned or they hit you in the eyes or face, though those lead-weighted darts might be able to break small bones (I.E. fingers). Still, I've shot myself in the leg with the things plenty of times and come away with no more than a sore shin for a half-hour.

mob-messenger wrote:Word for word. I said this because I was stating that there is no way to keep a cat restrained.

I disagree with you on that. I have personally seen cats act just fine with leashes, though it was obvious that it took quite a bit of work. I've also seen people actually carry them in napsacks while they walked. It was all I could do to keep from laughing at the expression on that cat's face as its owner jogged down the street. It is quite possible to restrain your feline as long as they feel comfortable with the method you choose. Its the same way with dogs. It takes a fair bit of work to train them to walk with a leash on. The only dog that didn't resist in the slightest is my mother's tiny toy poodle. That little ★■◆● LOVES to go for walks. He'll twist himself up in it and pull on it with his teeth wanting you to hurry up.

That is true to an extent, however the birdfeeder is actually the hazard. You are encouraging birds to occupy territory where predators are present. If you are out in the sticks. Fine. If they are in a rural area, birds should not be flocking into someones lawn. Birds are intended to search around for food and evade predators. Cats are intended by nature to hunt and search around for their source of food. If you stick a bird feeder in your yard, birds flock to it and it makes the birds a massive target for a cat or a dog.

And that is also true to an extent. However, if they are not welcome on that property, that is where it presents a problem. The offending felines are heading onto someone else's property to "hunt". The birdfeeder was placed there because the owner obviously enjoys watching the birds, and the birds get free food. If the owner doesn't want the cats there then he either has the option of putting up a fence, or complaining to the owners. Since fences aren't cheap (even when you build it yourself, which cuts the price in half), which option would you choose in his place? I doubt the fence would work anyways seeing as cats are natural climbers, and would have no trouble getting over it. Whether or not the bird feeder makes his back yard an all you can eat buffet isn't the issue here, its the cats running free on his property where they aren't welcome. As a pet owner, it is their responsibility (re: the owners of the cats) to keep up with them.

Yes, they do nestle in areas such as that but they are also an unnatural environment. Keep in mind that Hawks also hunt birds.

Oh, I'm well aware they hunt birds too. I've seen it happen before. However the hawks, unlike cats, must do this to survive. The cats already have a food source of their own, provided by their owner.

Dogs will attack humans over territory and they defecate/pee on your lawns/property killing your plants. Dogs also are known to attack children and adults. You conceeded to the issue of territory. Cats will not attack children walking around the neighborhood. You argue that they are an ecological hazard yet you state that you could care less about the laws of nature? I percieve a rather large hint of contradiction here.

Umm...since when did this become about canines and felines attacking humans? This isn't about territory, this is about a bunch of domesticated felines hunting where they aren't welcome. However, if you really want to get into the nitty gritty, have you ever seen a wound inflicted by a cat bite? My uncle was bitten by a cat, and his hand swelled overnight. The bite wound became infected and he would have lost that hand if it had not been treated that day.

Yes, I CONCEDED that in our argument over icq. But, I wanted to make it also clear on this board being that, this board is where the debate originated.

Fair enough.

My argument is mostly against people trying to state that cats are a hazard. You and I come from different worlds. My point is simply that cats have their place and their use.

And I agree that they have their place and use. However, they should be forced to respect other people's property and stay away from where they aren't welcome. Let me ask you this, if I let my dogs run wild (not that I would ever do such a thing, mind you), and they happened to start killing cats, would you see a problem with this? After all, that is a natural behavior for them to do so, and you yourself professed that cats should be allowed to hunt because its a natural instinct. Why shouldn't it be the same for my dogs?

What I will say is that owners DO NEED to spay or nueter their cats. This causes them to have less of a need to wander (to look for females or to hunt to provide food for their kittens). They will also breed less, causing less strays running around and less cats to hunt birds.

If they don't intend to breed their feline, then I agree.

Exactly how do bird feeders help the environment?

They don't. However, it does provide the birds with another food source that is readily available.

I have heard someone argue that it will get them through colder parts of the year. Well, that is why birds instinctivly fly south during the winter to warmer regions. This would simply cause birds to loose that instinct. Wild birds should not be taught to depend on humans.

That arguement is partially true since they have a replinishable food source at their disposal. However, it doesn't take into account thermal conditions.

As for loosing their instinct, I seriously doubt that. It might make them stick around a little longer, but as soon as the cold weather starts to arrive they won't be sticking around very long.

What if the cat is not within range? Some cats will even ignore you. Especially if you attempt to restrain it and it is unhappy with that restraint.

Then I'd say its time that the owner take responsibility and go out looking for it. I've had to do the same thing the one time my dogs got loose, and I expect the same of every pet owner.

TThe fact that you should not/ can not restrain a cat is irrelevant to the argument?

So in other words cats should be allowed to roam unrestricted on other people's property whether or not they are welcome? Am I the only one that has a problem with that?

It is you that brought up the fact that you should leash or constrain a cat by whatever means necessary.

Yes, you should comply with the leash law when you're not on your own property. Thats the entire point of the law.

If it causes injury to the owner or death to the affected animal, then it is completely relevant to your argument.

How the hell is a leash going to kill a cat?! Last I checked, they don't make choking collars for cats. If its causing that big a problem for the cat, then pick the damn thing up!

Thus the leash law is a less relevant argument.

So pets should be allowed to roam unrestricted on other people's property no matter what, because its a natural instinct?

Not when every single other town within your state has about 2-3 cats of their own. Also, it is much easier to have a CAT when it is unrestrained. The cat is happier and the owner is happier. It usually balances itself out rather well. This allows the cat to hunt for rodents and allows it to gain exercise and be something other than a lawn ornament. This also allows the cat the defecate somewhere that it will not cause a problem for its owners. A cat also covers its excrements up so that it is less likely to cause a problem.

Funny, I've seen people jump at the chance to get a free animal.

Anyway, at this point we both look like idiots. It is apparent that you simply HATE cats when you probably have either never owned one and you apparently know nothing about owning one as a pet. :\

Ok, lets get one thing straight. I don't hate cats. What I hate are irresponsible owners. I don't let my dogs roam free around the neighborhood, and if by chance they do make a mess then I *gasp* take responsibility and clean it up to the best of my ability. If they break something, then I either repair it or pay for the damage. (which is something I wish more pet owners would do...) As for my experience with cats, my neighbor (before they moved) had a calico that had just had a litter of kittens. I was being paid to babysit their white lab, and those cats. Their cat already knew me so that wasn't really a big deal.

I don't mind cats, I just don't want to own one myself. If one comes near me, I won't begrudge it a good scratching or a good ear rub. I just don't want one as a pet, nor would it be possible anyways with me having dogs already.

At any rate, we'll just have to agree to disagree on it.

Stryker wrote:

roid wrote:wow Stryker, that blowgun stuff is seriously interesting .
and i never knew paintballs were so cheap.

if i were to take one of these into a paintball game, i'd also want facepaint and a loincloth

(edit: google seems to be giving me all indications that blowguns are illegal here in OZ. bleh)

Seriously? IIRC, the Aborigine tribes in Australia used blowguns for over a hundred years to hunt small game. Kind of a shame to ban them... the only way they can do serious damage to humans is if the darts are poisoned or they hit you in the eyes or face, though those lead-weighted darts might be able to break small bones (I.E. fingers). Still, I've shot myself in the leg with the things plenty of times and come away with no more than a sore shin for a half-hour.

i've not heard of OZ aboriginals using blowguns, they prefer spearing and clubbing. but even so, aboriginals out on their land would be considered beyond those laws anyway - so it's no worry for them. they can even hunt endangered animals if so inclined.

how do you shoot yourself in the leg? it must have been a very short blowgun yes? (the homemade ones i'm reading about online measure in at 6foot+ )

roid wrote:how do you shoot yourself in the leg? it must have been a very short blowgun yes? (the homemade ones i'm reading about online measure in at 6foot+ )

Maybe he was goofing off with it like Tim Allen's character did in Jungle 2 Jungle.

This thread is:

MD,

The question still remains: why use a frickin' GUN on a cat? Hose + spray nozzle = cat leaves.

One (somewhat nerdy ) clarification on what messenger said earlier: not all species of birds fly south for the winter. Around where I live, there are many kinds of smaller songbirds that stick around; we see cardinals, mourning doves, chickadees, nuthatches, and titmice all the time (not to mention the damn squirrels that can make it into any birdfeeder). As for a birdfeeder being an ecological issue, I highly doubt it; true, it does provide a smorgasbord, but it's nothing that the birds couldn't find on their own. It's good for the birds and good for the people that watch them. Also, I highly doubt that having a birdfeeder is going to override a bird's natural instincts; indeed, with many animals, the ability to find food is ingrained at birth. Think about this: when you forget to refill a birdfeeder for a week or two, do you start seeing dozens of birds starving to death? Of course not; they simply go elsewhere. To the bird, a birdfeeder is just like a big plant, only with little metal perches.

Getting back on topic, I'm in agreement with MD's view of the situation; if the cat is causing harm on your property, and the owner is too lazy/stupid to do anything about it, I don't see anything wrong with driving the cat off, even if that requires using deadly force.

Messenger wrote:Dogs will attack humans over territory and they defecate/pee on your lawns/property killing your plants. Dogs also are known to attack children and adults.

This is an absolute fallacy on your part. Dogs don't just outright attack people unprovoked. The reason they bark is because they're protecting their master's territory. And if they do attack it's because you have given them reason to. If what you say is true, dog bite-injury statistics would be much higher than they actually are.

From www.FatalDog Attacks.com

STUDY FINDINGS:
After reviewing over 431 cases of fatal dog attacks it is apparent there is no single factor that translates in a lethal encounter between a person and a dog(s). A fatal dog attack is always the culmination of past and present events that include: inherited and learned behaviors, genetics, breeding, socialization, function of the dog, physical condition and size of the dog, reproductive status of dog, popularity of breed, individual temperament, environmental stresses, owner responsibility, victim behavior, victim size and physical condition, timing and misfortune.

Also, had you actually read into the difference between male and female dogs you would find that only female dogs have a chemical in their urine that does destroy a patch of lawn.

Show me a dog that attacks a person unprovoked and I'll show you twenty dogs that don't.

Messenger wrote:Cats will not attack children walking around the neighborhood.

Type "pinky the cat" in the Google search page.

Messenger wrote:What I will say is that owners DO NEED to spay or nueter their cats. This causes them to have less of a need to wander (to look for females or to hunt to provide food for their kittens).

By now it's painfully obvious you have never owned a cat, nor even dealt with one. Even spayed or neutered they will STILL hunt. it's their primal instinct.

Messenger wrote:Anyway, at this point we both look like idiots. It is apparent that you simply HATE cats when you probably have either never owned one and you apparently know nothing about owning one as a pet. :\

Sorry pal, it looks like you're the idiot on this one. Again, it's quite apparent that you have never owned a cat, nor dealt with one.

MD, I would also like to clarify one of my views with you.

If your dogs attacked one of my cats, I would learn to live with it. That is how we deal with things around here. A lot of people that should, do not leash their dogs around here and it causes a lot of problems. That is why I just heard a report on the news last night about someone being killed by two dogs.

A cat is fair game for a dog. A dog can not climb a tree and a lot of cats around here kick the snot out of most dogs unless they are kittens in which case it is not fair game. A cat can defend itself against a dog. A cat can not defend itself against a bullet.

Now the most the cat you mentioned was able to do was make your uncles hand swell up and it was treatable. A dog will tear you to peices and make a very bloody mess and will usually leave a very ugly corpse when they are done with you. Guess what happens when a dog bights into your throught? Yes, you die and it will leave a really grotesque mess. My point is that I'm not as worried about a cat getting loose as a dog anyday. Sure, cats kill birds but they do not KILL humans. There is a strong difference between that cat killed a bird by my bird feeder and that dog mulilated and killed my son or daughter.


As for how people managed to leash their cats, I don't have a clue how they did it and as you stated the cats hate their owner for trying to constrain them. What is the point of owning a pet that hates your guts? Cats are an INDEPENDENT animal unlike dogs which are a DEPENDENT animal. Dogs aim to please their masters where cats are far less interested in going against their own nature. I never ever sensed that my cats hated me. One cat I owned, I was playing with at one point and tied a string around its leg to see what it would do. It was a smart cat so I figured it would figure out how to get the string off. I was pretty small at the time and didn't know what I was doing. The cat threw a massive fit, ran as fast as it could, the string snagged on a peice of wood, it jumped over the porch and hung upside down by one leg and the string almost tore its leg off. The cat also began clawing and bighting me repeatedly when I attempted to free it. Imagine what would have happened I put a leash on it? Any time I put a string or anything to try and constrain a cat, it would immediatly spaz out and attack me or nearly strangle itself trying to get it off or run away from it. That is what I was referring too.

If they don't intend to breed their feline, then I agree.

In most cases no one needs to breed their felines. If cats hunting birds are a big issue there, why not reduce the number of cats hunting them by not allowing them to breed freely so that they produce even more cats. A female cat produces about 4-5 kittens. Also take note that male cats are not as interested in hunting as a female. The female is the provider, where toms are more interested in pretty much laying around and playing. They tend to stray far less as long as they are nuetered.

Funny, I've seen people jump at the chance to get a free animal.

Not in Idaho. We will give a please... no HELL NO! NO MORE ANIMALS PLEASE!! You hit your number of pets and you don't need/want anymore. Some people still do occasionally but it is a rare find if you are looking for a good owner who will actually suite your pet. I'm sure you wouldn't just give one of your dogs away to just anyone who wanted it.

Oh, I'm well aware they hunt birds too. I've seen it happen before. However the hawks, unlike cats, must do this to survive. The cats already have a food source of their own, provided by their owner.

Depends on how the owner feeds/trains his/her cat.

So far, the only good reason for a bird feeder is that it is good for people to watch? As for bird not loosing their instincts... I'm saying that they will loose their fear of humans and other animals. Go to Yellowstone, you will get a nasty fine for feeding animals. Why? Because animals loose their instincts to avoid humans. Another problem is that they tend to gorge themselves which can cause other problems. They had a HUGE problem with bears because of people feeding them in the park. They had almost no fear of humans and began attacking them in order to get to food. You go against nature and alter an environment and you will cause problems for a species. As for keeping a cat within a fence:

1. that is impossible because as you even stated, they are excellent climbers/escape artists.
2. You could say the same about those who feed birds. They are introducing birds into the natural territory of predators. Keep in mind, humans are also a major predator to birds. Even though it is illegal to shoot most wild birds, it is still common, particularly with little kids. If you want to create your own little ecosystem, fence your own place against predators/the outside world because there is more than one type of predator.

As for using a gun or a saucer of anti-freeze. I would rather that my cat was shot however. I had a cat die pretty much in my arms after she ate some anti-freeze. Best and smartest, most loving cat I ever had. It is a terrible thing to go through when you and your family spend the entire day/night trying to revive your favorite cat and slowly watching the light fade from her eyes as time ticks away. And then the next week watching its brother throwing up anything it eats and starving itself to death until it eventually kills itself from depression.

Anyway, I guess we will have to agree to dissagree.

BTW MD, some dogs and cats actually do get along quite well. I have seen many cases of this. Actually some can become pretty good pals and will even play together. If I remember right, I think I also told you about one case of this.

Ferno wrote:

Messenger wrote:Dogs will attack humans over territory and they defecate/pee on your lawns/property killing your plants. Dogs also are known to attack children and adults.

This is an absolute fallacy on your part. Dogs don't just outright attack people unprovoked. The reason they bark is because they're protecting their master's territory. And if they do attack it's because you have given them reason to. If what you say is true, dog bite-injury statistics would be much higher than they actually are.

From www.FatalDog Attacks.com

STUDY FINDINGS:
After reviewing over 431 cases of fatal dog attacks it is apparent there is no single factor that translates in a lethal encounter between a person and a dog(s). A fatal dog attack is always the culmination of past and present events that include: inherited and learned behaviors, genetics, breeding, socialization, function of the dog, physical condition and size of the dog, reproductive status of dog, popularity of breed, individual temperament, environmental stresses, owner responsibility, victim behavior, victim size and physical condition, timing and misfortune.

Also, had you actually read into the difference between male and female dogs you would find that only female dogs have a chemical in their urine that does destroy a patch of lawn.

Show me a dog that attacks a person unprovoked and I'll show you twenty dogs that don't.

Messenger wrote:Cats will not attack children walking around the neighborhood.

Type "pinky the cat" in the Google search page.

Messenger wrote:What I will say is that owners DO NEED to spay or nueter their cats. This causes them to have less of a need to wander (to look for females or to hunt to provide food for their kittens).

By now it's painfully obvious you have never owned a cat, nor even dealt with one. Even spayed or neutered they will STILL hunt. it's their primal instinct.

Messenger wrote:Anyway, at this point we both look like idiots. It is apparent that you simply HATE cats when you probably have either never owned one and you apparently know nothing about owning one as a pet. :\

Sorry pal, it looks like you're the idiot on this one. Again, it's quite apparent that you have never owned a cat, nor dealt with one.

Lewie, Jenny, Bear, Archie, Cali, Be-Bop, Tigger, Bullet should I go on? Would you like me to scan photos?

As for dogs attacking humans:

http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200412/ ... _102.jhtml

http://www.kpvi.com/index.cfm?page=nbch ... m&ID=24231

And while I was searching for those articles:

http://www.unchainyourdog.org/news/050205Elderly.htm

which is part of:

http://www.unchainyourdog.org/NewsAttacks.htm

Othere examples:

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News ... 57,00.html

http://www.dogexpert.com/FatalDogAttack ... azil05.htm

http://www.leerburg.com/rot-kill.htm

http://www.dogexpert.com/FatalDogAttack ... Texas3.htm

http://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/983

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/08 ... 1lo992.htm

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.d ... 1/archives

Need I keep going? Took me maybe 1-15 minutes on a 56k modem.

http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/ ... ls-ny.html

BTW, I am familiar with Pinky The Cat. I saw that video a long time ago.

1. The cat did not KILL anyone.
2. The cat was simply struggling trying to get away. It did not just run up to the guy and start taking hunks out of him like a dog would.


Dogs and cats are territorial. However, a cat will always run from something that it sees as a threat. A dog will not run from a threat. Now they will percieve a threat as being on their territory. This is where unprovoked attacks come from. You do not attack the dog but it sees you in its territory and decides to attack.

The point is, a cat will not run up and jump on someone intending to kill them. I till fight to get away however. I NEVER denined that they would fight to get away from something that provokes them. When someone forces a cat to be held when it does not want to be held by that person, what do you think it would do? Probably try to get away in any way it could. If someone grabbed you or picked you up off of your feet that you didn't know Ferno, I'll bet you would fight your way out.

Looking closer at the video, he is pissing the cat off by petting it too hard. It's not a dog. Then the cat struggled and tried to get away. The cat fights even harder to get away and the guy hangs onto it with everything he has, this scaring it more. Then he tries to grab it again. Not to mention, he has the cat on a leash, choking it, thus making it even more angry. It feels extremely constrained by this strange , huge animal it sees as a potential predator. The cat fights against the the leash trying to free itself and the guy yanks the leash (let go of the leash moron), the cat sees no other way out so they decide to put a box over it (hmmm its allready ticked off about feeling controled and constrained so their going to make it feel even more so. After the cat refuses the box, the idiot keeps pulling on the leash while the cat circles around they guy's leg and eventually entangles istelf up between the leash and his leg, sees no other way out and decides to bite.

You must be blind as a bat to not see the cats intentions. It was affraid and was trying to get away like any normal animal or person would. It didn't know what to do so after trying to simply crawl away and then finding itself being more and more constrained and being choked by the leash, it began to attack the leash. Note how the only time it attacks him is when he pulls the cat in a direction that it is forced to attack him and there is no other alternative. He practically forced it to bite him.

How to solve it? Let the cat go, let it calm down, put your hand down and coax it, the cat will sniff your hand in order to gain trust, you pet it on the head and it will eventually come back to you easily. Works like a charm.

Most cats are far more patient than that particular one. However, it was not in a nice family oriented environment. It was being forcably constrained and irritated.

A dog will however fight a human for territory if it feels the need. A cat, will not.

Anyway, I'm tired of this argument. I can see MD's point a bit. We have apposing views but at least his argument was reasonable and realistic. He didn't deny that dogs do not attack/kill humans at least.

Watch the news Fern and not shows on Fox. Don't they have that dumb UFO show on that channel? I about laughed my head off when I watched that one night.

BTW, I thought I would also mention a few things about cats sociological patterns as aposed to dogs.

Now, keep in mind that I have been around many dogs but I have never owned them so I am not totally familiar with all of their instincts. However, through being around many, (my neighbor has 3, my sister has two, a girl I knew had one, three of my friends had dogs which I became familiar with. Three of them, I suspect, caused the death of my cat, Jenny. Although she was mostly a lawn ornament and we think she had something mentally wrong with her. She died due to our neighbors dogs chasing her up onto their roof and apparenlty one of the dogs tore off one of her hind legs which bacame infected. We had to finish her off eventually.

Back to behaviours,

Some people seem to hate cats mainly because they can not read their feelings. Keep in mind that a cat is a more subtle animal. Usually socially quiet and less interested in pleasing its owner. Thus it is an independent animal. Now, when a dog is feeling happy, it will wag its tail, its ears will be in the upright position and it will usually pant. A cat, however, will pur. The first thing you need to do is gain trust with the cat by letting it sniff the tips of your fingers, hold your palm up, if you have your hand in a claw, it gestures to the cat that you are being aggressive, then it may even lightly bite into your hand at first when it lets you pet it, it is testing you to see if you are interested in attacking it or petting it. Usually it will not bite hard enough to even hurt. After a few seconds they will let go and they will let you pet them freely. However, do not pet them in a fast or rough manor, just very gently and subtle. Now, how a cat shows that is happy IS NOT when it's tail is wagging. Cat's do not wag their tails. If their tail moves up and down, you are annoying the animal. It feels irritated and nervouse. It is a sign that it is uncomfortable. If it begins to pull away, that is a sign of, please let me go. Either slow down the strokes when you pet it or let it go until it feels safe. If the cat enjoys you petting it, it will usually stretch out, relax. The next step is that it will dig its claws into you slowly. Just pull away from it if it does this. The reason a cat will do this is because it is a habbit that they have learned from their mother. Generally when a kitten nurses from its mother it will tend to make the same motion so this comforting to them and they are thinking of their mother and perhaps even as you being its mother. When a dog is ticked off however, its tail goes down, its ears go back and it twists its jaws into a snarl to expose its teeth. This is when they become aggressive. A cats ears will go back and give a low, irritated growl though. When a dog is nervouse, probably one of the first signes is that it try to roll in the first thing it figures as being smelly if it isn't interested in a fight. As for territory, cats will only challenge animals that are their own size, it will not try to take on something that is larger than its own size unless it has too. A dog, however, will if it sees something it doesn't like in its territory and it is mean natured or is in a bad mood. I will agree that a most dogs will not attack a person even when in a bad mood. Those are good dogs. Bad dogs, however, will. The way to make a dog love you is also to make it think of you as part of the pack. You play with it, wrestle with it, whatever and they are a tad bit rougher. Though, I have seen a case where a cat wanted to be a dog. My sister would throw a ball to the dog, the dog would chase the ball and the cat would chase the dog. The cat actually wanted to be a dog but couldn't quite figure out how. It was a lot of fun to watch the antics it went through in the process. It's like comparing men to women. The signes and body language are read completely differently. A women wants to feel safety and protection and to run the house j/k . A man wants sex, football and beer.

Anyway, enough jabbering. I guess I find animals and their behaviours pretty interesting in a way.

BTW, I am not a dog hater. Personally I would love to own one at some point in my life. But I have been around many dogs.

Thus the apposing views between MD and myself. We come from two totally different situations. He is a dog lover who is familiar with cats, I am a cat lover who is familiar with dogs.

MD is from Wisconsin in the middle of the sticks. I'm in Idaho in the middle of a rocky desert.

I think the main beef I have is that I don't think that people should be able to shoot, just any cat. Then you would have cat haters shooting any cat that crosses onto their property. But, maybe a law that his its own set limits. You could say that any cat without a colar can be shot and up the nuetering/spaying of their feline friends. Trust me, that should be enforced more here too.

The problem with non-lethal force is that a cat is a creature of habbit. If it decides to do something, it will come back no matter what. I have had stray cats that would get in fights with my own cats. I would shoot them with water guns, chase them, spray them with a hose and they would return. They would be back a few minutes later when I walked in the house. :\ You can shoot them with a BB gun and they will return a day later.

I do think that some defence needs to be established but I think certain boundaries should be set and those boundaries should not limit where a domesticated cat can or can not go.

Also, keep in mind that I'm not saying that all cats are good good. There are good cats and bad cats. There are good dogs and bad dogs. But a cat is less capable and less likely to attack something larger than itself. I owned one bad cat. She would beg you to pet her and then swat at your hand for no reason. This was only one cat however, Jenny. She also hated me since the day I was born being that she was jelouse of me when I was born. She also had something mentaly wrong with her. She clawed me, hissed at me and growled but never all out attacked me. She saw me as a threat encroaching on her territory. She mostly just avoided me. All the other cats were best buds with me though. One of our other other cats, Lewie was actually present during the same time that we had Jenny and he was my best bud and used to enjoy annoying the snot out of Jenny by following her and mimicking her every move, staying just out of her range.

Anyway, so in general, there are good cats and bad cats, there are good dogs and bad dogs. Also, dog's and cat's socioligical patterns tend to diverge from each other. So there is a thin red line when a situation like this arises so rules must be set. And knowing how our laws are usually filled with all sorts of fun loopholes they do need to be careful about how they go about enacting something like this

Dude....you have WAY too much time on your hands.

Mess: you haven't disproved anything I've said in regards to dog behaviour. Also, are you an animal behaviour specialist?

I've lived with dogs all my life.

Some breeds of dogs can (and will) attack a human being for no good reason. I've got a scar (you can barely see it, but it's there) from a coon hound puppy bite (puppies tend to have much sharper teeth than adult dogs). However, most dogs, if raised and treated right, won't even try to harm you unless you give them reason to. My black lab's had bad experiences with meter readers (pepper spray right to the face. Idiot) and boy scouts (the twirps kept teasing him as they walked past our camp site. He almost took down a park ranger thinking he was a scout leader!). Otherwise, he's a big, black teddy bear. He'll run up and say hi, but he won't do anything worse than sniff your pants or maybe lick your hand.

IMO, if you're gonna shoot a dog, check the mouth first. if there's foam, kill it. You'll have saved some neighborhood kids the rabies shots. If no foam, approach *SLOWLY*. If it looks like it's going to attack you, shoot him. Dogs can run way faster than humans, and if they intend to kill you, odds are they will. If the owner compains...bully for them. They shoulda kept the mutt in its yard.

(If you're in a residential neighborhood and you see a stray dog, odds are it's illegal to shoot it. Just stay inside. If it becomes too big a problem, call animal control (or the police, if you have to).

Ferno wrote:Mess: you haven't disproved anything I've said in regards to dog behaviour. Also, are you an animal behaviour specialist?

In that case, you haven't dissproved a single thing I said either.

I never discussed if a dog was provoked in a lethal attack or not. I simply stated that dogs WILL kill or bring harm to a human.


You also are trying to act like cats will attack kids/humans with the pinky the cat story. That cat was simply trying get away, it was not attacking anyone. Dogs, will aggressivly attack/kill a person if they feel provoked via tresspassing. Or if the mood simply catches them right, especially if they are mistreated by their owner.

You also stated that I have never owned a cat in my life. I just gave you a discription of a number of cats I owned and told you that if you would like to see a picture of Archie and Bear (two of my favorite cats), that I will glady scan it and post it. I need to get my scanner functioning correctly though.

You also are trying to claim that dogs will not attack humans. I just gave you a butt load of links that prove it. MDX also stated that dogs will attack humans for no good reason. Took me only a few minutes to do so. You might try reading sometime. Really helps.

Anyway, enough of this.

BTW, I am not an animal behavioural specialist but I have owned cats nearly every second of my life and I have studied their behavioural habbits. I am a 3D artist, I don't go to school to study animals.

However, you do not need to be a child specialist in order to know how to take care of your kids. I know people who have never HAD a kid in their life try to tell my parents how they should raise me when they know jack ★■◆● about raising a child.

BTW, I do not appreciate being called an idiot.

Exactly how many cats have you owned in your lifetime Ferno?

roid wrote:

Stryker wrote:

roid wrote:wow Stryker, that blowgun stuff is seriously interesting .
and i never knew paintballs were so cheap.

if i were to take one of these into a paintball game, i'd also want facepaint and a loincloth

(edit: google seems to be giving me all indications that blowguns are illegal here in OZ. bleh)

Seriously? IIRC, the Aborigine tribes in Australia used blowguns for over a hundred years to hunt small game. Kind of a shame to ban them... the only way they can do serious damage to humans is if the darts are poisoned or they hit you in the eyes or face, though those lead-weighted darts might be able to break small bones (I.E. fingers). Still, I've shot myself in the leg with the things plenty of times and come away with no more than a sore shin for a half-hour.

i've not heard of OZ aboriginals using blowguns, they prefer spearing and clubbing. but even so, aboriginals out on their land would be considered beyond those laws anyway - so it's no worry for them. they can even hunt endangered animals if so inclined.

how do you shoot yourself in the leg? it must have been a very short blowgun yes? (the homemade ones i'm reading about online measure in at 6foot+ )

The blowgun I have weighs in at a measly 3.5 feet. When you consider that I stand 5'10", with leg taking up most of that distance, it's easily possible.

I'd thought I'd heard about aboriginals using blowguns--but maybe that was just my imagination. I know that the Chinese, Africans, and Native Americans used them for centuries. The US military still uses the things, for cryin' out loud! Evidently with a 12-foot-long blowgun and tripod, it has almost the same power and similar accuracy to a sniper rifle--and it can fire darts heavy enough to kill humans. Perfect for silencing a sentry or someone that you can't get close to and want gone silently.

Stryker wrote:

roid wrote:

Stryker wrote:

roid wrote:wow Stryker, that blowgun stuff is seriously interesting .
and i never knew paintballs were so cheap.

if i were to take one of these into a paintball game, i'd also want facepaint and a loincloth

(edit: google seems to be giving me all indications that blowguns are illegal here in OZ. bleh)

Seriously? IIRC, the Aborigine tribes in Australia used blowguns for over a hundred years to hunt small game. Kind of a shame to ban them... the only way they can do serious damage to humans is if the darts are poisoned or they hit you in the eyes or face, though those lead-weighted darts might be able to break small bones (I.E. fingers). Still, I've shot myself in the leg with the things plenty of times and come away with no more than a sore shin for a half-hour.

i've not heard of OZ aboriginals using blowguns, they prefer spearing and clubbing. but even so, aboriginals out on their land would be considered beyond those laws anyway - so it's no worry for them. they can even hunt endangered animals if so inclined.

how do you shoot yourself in the leg? it must have been a very short blowgun yes? (the homemade ones i'm reading about online measure in at 6foot+ )

The blowgun I have weighs in at a measly 3.5 feet. When you consider that I stand 5'10", with leg taking up most of that distance, it's easily possible.

I'd thought I'd heard about aboriginals using blowguns--but maybe that was just my imagination. I know that the Chinese, Africans, and Native Americans used them for centuries. The US military still uses the things, for cryin' out loud! Evidently with a 12-foot-long blowgun and tripod, it has almost the same power and similar accuracy to a sniper rifle--and it can fire darts heavy enough to kill humans. Perfect for silencing a sentry or someone that you can't get close to and want gone silently.

Now I'm interested. Where did you find out that they are as accurate and powerful as a sniper rifle?

Tyranny wrote:Dude....you have WAY too much time on your hands.

Only when people call me an idiot.

That was in an informational booklet that came with the blowgun. Evidently it takes a little more time and effort to set up a shot, due to the tremendous length of the thing and the fact that it's hard to move a 12' long tube around while in camo, but its effects are just as precise and deadly--without the noise.

Other uses:

This Website wrote: Marines from Okinawa also made it to Taiwan. Some 500 Leathernecks protected the perimeter around the airfield at Ping Tung. Richard I. Feeney was a corporal with the 3rd Marine Regiment, 3rd Marine Division, at the time. According to Feeney, some Marine jets were damaged by Red infiltrators who used blowguns to blow metal objects into the afterburners of the aircraft.

Blowguns are pretty specialized in their work, but they are extremely effective in some situations. The military's had a lot of time using these things--google for US Military Blowguns to get some serious info on their history with blowguns.

You also stated that I have never owned a cat in my life. I just gave you a discription of a number of cats I owned and told you that if you would like to see a picture of Archie and Bear (two of my favorite cats), that I will glady scan it and post it. I need to get my scanner functioning correctly though.

You also are trying to claim that dogs will not attack humans. I just gave you a butt load of links that prove it. MDX also stated that dogs will attack humans for no good reason. Took me only a few minutes to do so. You might try reading sometime. Really helps.

You're lying now. had you actually read the one link that I posted it would tell you why dogs do bite. But it looks like to me that you're too lazy to even click it. So your argument is now suspect. I'm not even going to deal with a person who blatenly lies such as yourself. I'll quote you directly: You might try reading sometime. Really helps.

BTW, I am not an animal behavioural specialist but I have owned cats nearly every second of my life and I have studied their behavioural habbits

However, you do not need to be a child specialist in order to know how to take care of your kids. I know people who have never HAD a kid in their life try to tell my parents how they should raise me when they know jack **** about raising a child.

Do you realize what you just did with this? two things. you have completely negated your own argument and you contradicted yourself. This is exactly like me saying "I'm no doctor but I have studied aliments like yours enough to give you a diagnosis". Also, When did this involve kids? Comparing animals to kids is comparing apples to oranges.

Exactly how many cats have you owned in your lifetime Ferno?

Seven.

By now it's painfully obvious you have never owned a cat, nor even dealt with one. Even spayed or neutered they will STILL hunt. it's their primal instinct.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:43 am
Messenger wrote:
Dogs will attack humans over territory and they defecate/pee on your lawns/property killing your plants. Dogs also are known to attack children and adults.


This is an absolute fallacy on your part. Dogs don't just outright attack people unprovoked. The reason they bark is because they're protecting their master's territory. And if they do attack it's because you have given them reason to. If what you say is true, dog bite-injury statistics would be much higher than they actually are.

Quote:
You also stated that I have never owned a cat in my life. I just gave you a discription of a number of cats I owned and told you that if you would like to see a picture of Archie and Bear (two of my favorite cats), that I will glady scan it and post it. I need to get my scanner functioning correctly though.

You also are trying to claim that dogs will not attack humans. I just gave you a butt load of links that prove it. MDX also stated that dogs will attack humans for no good reason. Took me only a few minutes to do so. You might try reading sometime. Really helps.

You're lying now. had you actually read the one link that I posted it would tell you why dogs do bite. But it looks like to me that you're too lazy to even click it. So your argument is now suspect. I'm not even going to deal with a person who blatenly lies such as yourself. I'll quote you directly: You might try reading sometime. Really helps.

1. That is not a blatent lie, nor even a lie. Dogs do will attack you over territory without enough reason to attack you. Which is what I have been trying to explain.

2. You stated that I have never owned a cat. I would call THAT a blatent lie. Not only this but you also proclaimed that pinky the cat outright attacked people. From the video I watched, which I had seen before, the cat was trying to get away, he was not trying to attack anyone. He did bite the guy eventually because the idiot wouldn't let go and twisted the cat around with the leash so much that the cat was tied to his leg and the cat didn't know what else to do but bite him until he pulled the cat off and let it go. Thus your argument there could be called a blatent lie. I would refer to it as a missunderstanding and let it go at that.

Quote:
BTW, I am not an animal behavioural specialist but I have owned cats nearly every second of my life and I have studied their behavioural habbits

However, you do not need to be a child specialist in order to know how to take care of your kids. I know people who have never HAD a kid in their life try to tell my parents how they should raise me when they know jack **** about raising a child.

Do you realize what you just did with this? two things. you have completely negated your own argument and you contradicted yourself. This is exactly like me saying "I'm no doctor but I have studied aliments like yours enough to give you a diagnosis". Also, When did this involve kids? Comparing animals to kids is comparing apples to oranges.

I was comparing the dumbass who thinks that they are a specialist because they may have the title but have never ACTUALLY raised a kid to a person who has raised 4-5 kids of their own. Thus my argument is perfectly relevent to the subject at hand.

BTW, I'm still not sure how I negated my argument? I never claimed myself as a specialist. However, I did say that behavioural differences between cats and dogs facinate me. These are two completely different things. I never proclaimed myself as a specialist.

I'm just stating that because I have had over 8 cats, (some of them were for short periods of time so I can't remember all of their names), all of my friends own at least 3-4 cats of their own who when I hang out there, usually end up with 3 cats fighting over my lap, I have been raised around cats since the day I was brought home from the hospital, I know a thing or two about how a cat behaves. However, I will not proclaim that I know as much about dogs as I do cats. Though, I am aware of dogs through various ones around the neighborhood and that my sisters own.

Look Ferno, MD and TW who disagree with me found a way to agree to disagree and we allowed each other to express our viewpoints. If you wish to keep attacking me on this board, perhaps you should do so over IM if you really are that desperate for a long, drawn out argument. At least MD was willing not to attempt to slander me in his argument. I believe you probably still have me on ICQ and I drop in IRC occasionally.

Other than that, please stop attempting to nit-pick at my words in order to find ways to slander me.

Thank you.

This is exactly like me saying "I'm no doctor but I have studied aliments like yours enough to give you a diagnosis

Actually, my Mom has studied medical books for many years (hey it doesn't hurt to learn a bit about protecting yourself against doctors being that some seem to love to mis-diagnose) and she usually can figure out what is wrong with us before the doctor can. (Keep in mind that there are also a large number of good doctors out there but there is the occasional bad doctor.) Anyway, we go to the doctor anyway and it is usually exactly what he claimed it was. Many times the doctor will even screw it up and later will tell us what was wrong, which is what my mother figured it was in the first place! :
Sometimes, specialists aren't as special as they would like to think or claim that they are, which is a really sad thing to know really.

BTW, I will give you credit about the fact that female dogs are the main problem when they pee on your lawn. You probably know more about dogs however, than I do. I know, about cats. Hell, I practically am a cat j/k

BTW, I will take a read through that link now. Perhaps what we have here is a miscommunication. Earlier when I was talking about dogs attacking/harming people I never talked about the reason they attack/harm humans until after you replied. The point is that a cat is not physically able to kill a human where a large dog is, nor will a cat outright attack a person. They will always run or stay clear of anything larger than themselves unless it is a dog or relativly the same size. Dogs will take down something larger than themselves. Hell, some dogs will even do this unprovoked, though it is much more rare that an unprovoked attack will occure.

Anyway, just thought I would tag this little bit on the end.

mod-messenger, reading medical books does not make one as qualified as going to medical school. Does your mom know anything about biochemistry? Can she recite off the top of her head the drugs that will react badly with whatever you're currently taking? Just as a random example, does she know how many mg of Coumadin a person of your size, weight, and age should be taking per day for thinning out your blood? And what you shouldn't eat when you're on Coumadin? She may be able to diagnose a common cold or the flu, but I guarantee that just because she reads medical books out of a paranoid fear that a doctor will intentionally or malevolently misdiagnose her or her children does not reflect on her intelligence, but rather her lack of understanding of the medical profession. Not everything is in a book.

A big part of what you guys are forgetting about is the guy wanted to shoot a cat for eating birds he does not own. They are not his birds they do not belong to him and I certainly don't think they requested asylum from him. And when you think about birds in an urban environment, where are their natural enemies? Cats do serve a purpose here, they help keep bird populations in urban environments in check. If there was really a problem with it, we'd be seeing drastic bird shortages or something.

As for cats getting loose and roaming, have you ever tried to fence in a cat? You do know that it is impossible right? And cats need to get outside once in a while. As long as they have a coller on or some other identifying thing that lets someone know that THIS cat is someones pet, it should be okay. Lethal force shouldn't even be considered. For strays, Call Animal Control, have'm bag the cat and take it to the pound. That is the proper procedure. You don't SHOOT a cat in an urban environment.

Capm wrote:As for cats getting loose and roaming, have you ever tried to fence in a cat? You do know that it is impossible right? And cats need to get outside once in a while. As long as they have a coller on or some other identifying thing that lets someone know that THIS cat is someones pet, it should be okay. Lethal force shouldn't even be considered. For strays, Call Animal Control, have'm bag the cat and take it to the pound. That is the proper procedure. You don't SHOOT a cat in an urban environment.

agreed

Mess: of course you can't see how I negated your argument, because it seems logic doesn't really work with you.

You stated that I have never owned a cat. I would call THAT a blatent lie

you gave me the impression that you never owned a cat. you said you had pics of the cats you owned and I backed off. If you believe that's a lie, then so be it.

DCrazy wrote:Can she recite off the top of her head the drugs that will react badly with whatever you're currently taking? Just as a random example, does she know how many mg of Coumadin a person of your size, weight, and age should be taking per day for thinning out your blood? And what you shouldn't eat when you're on Coumadin?

Actually yeah.

This was a big problem in my family, the doctor gave my Dad Coumadin (aka rat poison) and after a while it started causing problems for him. My mom figured out exactly what the problem was and took him back to the doctor to correct the issue. Doctors around here have a bad habbit of screwing things up. :
I'm not saying that my Mom is a medical expert but she is inclined in the area of medicine and does know a few things about it that DO HELP. No she is not one of these hippy-like moms that run around prescribing natural substances to cure your problems like I have seen from a few people. However, she does read medical books word for word and seems to have a natural ability for learning it. We do not compare HER knowledge to a doctor's medical knowledge, experience, or skill persay but we do know that she can usually figure out what is wrong with us before we go.


I am simply saying, that after owning over 8 cats and every member of my family owning cats several generations before me, I have been taught and know a few things about how cats think. No I'm not a veteranarian but I do know when they are nervouse, anxiouse, curiouse, playfull, ticked off or content.

I also know when they are wounded, infected, have ear mites, ticks, fleas... etc. Doesn't take a genius to figure these things out.

A veteranarian is taught animal medicines for multiple animals. All I know, is about cats. Thus I am not comparing my knowledge to a behavioural specialist. Well, perhaps in the area of a cat I do.

Now I am not a parent but I know that it is an insult when someone who has read books from child specialists come into our house (who have never had a child themselves) and proclaim that they are an expert on raising children.

Nothing beats out first-hand experience.

Ferno wrote: Mess: of course you can't see how I negated your argument, because it seems logic doesn't really work with you.

So, if you become a child specialist, you should be able to tell a 63 year old Dad or a 60 year old mother how to raise their kids? Parents who have HAD and RAISED 5 kids with success?

If you really think that you are rather dumb.

Follow that happy trail of logic sometime.

Capm, now you provided actually a really good argument. This is the exact point I am trying to make. A cat can not be constrained. After all of my argueing, trying to explain every reason why you can not keep a cat leashed or behind a fence. :\ Cats do not work that way.

"So, if you become a child specialist, you should be able to tell a 63 year old Dad or a 60 year old mother how to raise their kids? Parents who have HAD and RAISED 5 kids with success?"

wow. left field reporting in...

Left Field? It ain't even the same ballpark, hell it ain't even the same friggin game.

mob-messenger wrote:Coumadin (aka rat poison)

That's an interesting way to misspell Plavix. And I work with dozens of patients on Coumadin and they don't seem to by suffering from symptoms of poisoning.

Capm wrote:Left Field? It ain't even the same ballpark, hell it ain't even the same friggin game.

lol

DCrazy wrote:

mob-messenger wrote:Coumadin (aka rat poison)

That's an interesting way to misspell Plavix. And I work with dozens of patients on Coumadin and they don't seem to by suffering from symptoms of poisoning.

Well, I'm not the family doctor and I didn't confirm this with my mother. She is not a part of this argument so I will try to keep her out of it. I do know that he was on a medication that was also rat poison. The medication he was on also didn't cause him to become poisoned. Anyway, I was simply using taht as a simple example. I know my mother well enough to know the FACT that she has a pretty wide knowledge in medical problems is true. Anyway, Mom is the family doctor and I'm not going to go running to her with this argument anyway.

Capm, I don't think you read my entire post.

Ferno, I was using it as an example. The point I was making there, was simply that I'm sure I would know my cats behavioural patterns after raising it and it's parents probably better than a behavioural specialist that has never been around any of my cats. I am the owner and I know them better than anyone else does. Just like I know my parents better than you do, even if you know what parents are like, you do not know as much about my parents as I would.



Am I a behavioural specialist?


Answere: Are you?

Anyway, at this point, I'm very tired of this argument. There is nothing WE can do about what happens in Wisconsin anyway. It is a definit waste of time to have an argument like this. I have enough stuff to back up on my end and you probably have some on your end to go on and on into an infinite abyss of slander and pointless irritation. And I WILL go on as long or longer than you will. It would be like watching Gandalf fight the Balrog in slow motion and all in text.

Ok, after talking to you on IRC Ferno I think I figured out what you were trying to point out.


I just figured I would clarify it on this board.


None of us are cat phsycologists.

I understood enough about owning a cat and knowing whta my cats like or dislike to make my statement but I can't go as far as to say that I'm an expert on the subject.

And as I also stated in the previouse post:

We aren't going to change anything in Wisconsin anyway

I read your post, I was making a joke (ala Pulp Fiction)