DescentBB

ok ok.. but back to Money's original question. I find this curious as I was having the same question surface over the last week. Why ARE the Jews hated so? All through history; from the Romans on. (I don't really want to reference pre-Roman occupation) I find general hatred of a people on this level very conspicuous. I mean they didn't try to kill 2.something million native germans (if there is such a thing) or anyone else for that matter. Ever see Fiddler on the Roof? That was a pretty accurate representation of what happened in Russia during that time.

Money, most of the details that people have posted about Jesus' crucifixion and death are taken from the four Gospel accounts. As Weyrman mentioned, there are other historical sources of the day that mention Jesus, but the Gospels provide most of the details that we have about him. I don't know if they'll hold any weight for you at all as valid sources, but keep in mind that their authors/subjects were Jewish, so saying that they contain anti-Semitic elements wouldn't make much sense. With this in mind, I do want to say that The Passion of the Christ didn't implicate the Jewish people as a whole for any aspect of Jesus' death; it was, for the most part, completely faithful to the Gospel accounts. I'm not saying that you should automatically go out and see it, but I don't think you should dismiss it as anti-Semitic just because a few people have accused it of being so.

Let me get back to the Gospel accounts and why the Jewish leaders would want Jesus dead. (Note that I'm basing all of what I've written here on the Gospels.) At the time, Jesus was pretty much hated by the Jewish leadership; he had garnered a substantial following, and they were afraid that he would usurp their authority. Perhaps his worst offense in their eyes came from a theological standpoint; he claimed to be the Son of God, the Messiah, which to them was one of the worst blasphemies anyone could utter. There are many instances throughout the Gospels when the scribes and Pharisees attempted to trap Jesus; one notable example is when they asked him if it was right to pay taxes to the Romans. If Jesus had blatantly answered "no," it would have been considered treasonous. At any rate, the Jewish leadership sought for a way to have Jesus arrested; this was provided by Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus and turned him into the hands of the Jewish authorities. A trial was staged, and false witnesses were brought against him; it really wasn't much more than a show. During this time, Jesus responded to a question by proclaiming himself as being seated at God's right hand; this was the last straw as far as the chief priests and rabbis were concerned. On the day of the crucifixion, they brought Jesus before Pilate, since they didn't have the legal authority to execute him. Pilate interrogated Jesus and didn't find any evidence of cause for crucifixion. However, the Jewish leaders pressured him, saying that Jesus had declared himself a king and was therefore an enemy of Caesar. They also stirred up the crowds outside, getting them to call for the release of Barabbas, a revolutionary and murderer, in place of Jesus. When seeing the public opinion against him, Pilate literally washed his hands of the matter and ordered Jesus to be executed.

You mentioned that the Jews would have considered Jesus to be a prophet, and there's no doubt that many did (in fact, at least one of the Gospels says that many people considered Jesus to be one of the great prophets of the past), but I have the distinct feeling that that was the last thing on the chief priests' minds. Even if he was really a prophet, I don't think they would have been too pleased about it. I think the idea of Jesus as a prophet from the Jewish perspective is a relatively more modern development; he certainly wasn't treated as someone like Elijah in his own day, at least not by the Jewish leaders.

About Jesus as the Messiah: I think that what a few other people in this thread are trying to say is that they don't see how anyone familiar with the Hebrew Scriptures could look at Jesus' life and not see him as the Messiah. To be honest, I don't think that's a good approach; I'm certainly not going to stand here and tell you that you're lacking intelligence for not believing that Jesus is the Messiah, no matter what my own beliefs are. However, what I can say is that, throughout his teachings as presented in the Gospels, Jesus draws a great deal from the Hebrew Scriptures. One of the most notable examples I can remember comes after the crucifixion, when Jesus walks with two of his disciples on the road to Emmaus. They have no idea who he is, thinking of him as just a passing stranger, yet after they tell him the reason for their sadness, he begins to quote the Scriptures, stating why the Messiah had to suffer and die. I'm no great scholar of the Old Testament myself; besides from what I learned in grade/high school and the readings I hear every Sunday at church, my knowledge isn't all that in-depth. However, I do know that many of the Hebrew prophets, in particular Isaiah, often reference the Messiah, the type of person he would be, and what would happen to him. Isaiah's description of the Suffering Servant is one specific example that is very important. Christians believe that all of these examples refer to Jesus, and based on the Gospel accounts, the correlation is very strong. Obviously, since you're coming from a different viewpoint than I am, you see things very differently.

About sin in the world: that's a topic that no Christian can ever really give a good answer for. The example you gave of telling your sins to a priest actually only applies to Catholicism; Reconciliation is one of the seven sacraments that Catholics practice. This could easily lead into some Reformation-like topics, so before I go off on some crazy tangent, I'll stop myself. Suffice it to say that many Christians do not believe that the confession of sins is necessary for salvation. As for your underlying point about there still being evil in the world despite Jesus' coming, as I said, I'm no Old Testament scholar, so I can't really get as deep as I would like. However, I can tell you that Christians believe that Jesus died to bring salvation to all of humanity, not necessarily to instantly rid the world of all sin. I don't know if there's any specific passage in the Hebrew Scriptures that would suggest that specific viewpoint. As Christians, we believe that Christ's sacrifice enabled humanity to gain eternal salvation in heaven; it made up for the inherent state of sinfulness that is part of the human condition and is represented by the story of Adam and Eve. There is more to this, though; Christians also believe that, at the end of time, Christ will come again, and sin and evil will be completely wiped away. As I believe it is described at some point in the Hebrew Scriptures, the "old heaven and old earth" will be replaced by something new and beyond what we can comprehend, something perfect. That philosophy sounds a lot like what you're talking about. As I mentioned before, I think a careful study of the Hebrew Scriptures would really help to address this point.

I hope my answer has helped to at least provide a different perspective on the subjects you brought up. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Jesus Christ that's alot of text.

I think I remember why I dont't come here very often.
Hopefully, my attempted explanation of the holocaust was useful to somebody.

Duper wrote:I mean they didn't try to kill 2.something million native germans (if there is such a thing) or anyone else for that matter.

(highlight by me)

Although it's not often touched on in popular accounts, the Nazis rounded up many minority groups, not just Jews.
here's a list from wiki

growing up as a Jehovah's Witness i was quite familure with the "purple triangle".

Genghis wrote:Behemoth and De Rigueur, do you truly find Palzon's joke post more insulting than ccb056's serious post? Or ccb056's joke post? You guys amaze me.

I didnt read ccb056's joke post

Palzon wrote:however, i'm not sure where you think i'm coming from because your original response to my joke was cryptic and could be taken a number of ways, particularly in quoting me from another thread.

Didn't mean to be cryptic. I gathered from your remarks that I quoted that you consider religious disputes on the DBB to be of lesser importance than the topic you brought up. (Feel free to correct me.)

You make a joke about Jesus, IMO the God of Christianity, who, so to speak, got His a** kicked. Your joke was so similar to what you said in the other thread that I couldn't resist making a connection. I don't think you meant your joke to offend (as Behemoth seemed to) -- I took it to be an expression of your attitude towards religious disputes on the DBB.

Jon the Great wrote:Hopefully, my attempted explanation of the holocaust was useful to somebody.

Don't be offended but you have a very simplistic view of the events that leaded to the holocaust. In essence you are correct but it goes a lot deeper and darker than that.

Talking of simplistic views. The reason why Jews are hated is because they killed the son of god, that's it. No frills.

The interesting questions are related to the reasons why today in the "naughties" Mr Goldberg is sill a tosser. Me i reckon it's just 'cause we're human.

De Rigueur wrote:

Palzon wrote:however, i'm not sure where you think i'm coming from because your original response to my joke was cryptic and could be taken a number of ways, particularly in quoting me from another thread.

Didn't mean to be cryptic. I gathered from your remarks that I quoted that you consider religious disputes on the DBB to be of lesser importance than the topic you brought up. (Feel free to correct me.)

You make a joke about Jesus, IMO the God of Christianity, who, so to speak, got His a** kicked. Your joke was so similar to what you said in the other thread that I couldn't resist making a connection. I don't think you meant your joke to offend (as Behemoth seemed to) -- I took it to be an expression of your attitude towards religious disputes on the DBB.

As indicated my joke here was meant to add levity to a topic that can make people uncomfortable. certainly, i meant no offense.

the quote from the other thread was spoofing on the frequent dogmatism of the DBB poster. It was meant fascetiously. It was entirely a joke, except for the part about me getting laid more, which is true

Iceman wrote:Christ was then tortured (scourged) by the Romans for the purpose of gratifying the bloodthirsty Jews.

Actually the "scourging" was not for the purpose of gratifying the bloddthirsty Jews. Scourging was the first step in the process leading to crucifixion. The condemned was beaten to weaken him physically. Crucifixion kills by putting strain on the diaphram, which eventually weakens to the point of collapse - and the person stops breathing - suffocates. A beaten, exhausted man will tire faster than a man who has not been beaten. Although the process is torturous, the purpose of crucifixion is not torture, the purpose is execution. When condemned men lingered too long their legs were broken so they could not support their body with their legs, which put more strain on the diaphram, quickening their death.

ON RACISM:
All forms of racism are based on negative stereotyping. All seteotyping is, to some degree, based on real observed behavior. While the behavior may not encomapss an entire ethnicity, it can become the predominant view if publicized by enough people, for a long enough period of time.

Iceman wrote:Christ was then tortured (scourged) by the Romans for the purpose of gratifying the bloodthirsty Jews.

wow

documentation of the day states Jesus was unrecognizable. He was completely cut up. Scorging by the romans was horrible. The wounds were deep and organs can be exposed within several lashes.

btw, Saying the "Jews" killed Jesus isn't entirely correct. It was the Sanhedrin that "killed" Jesus. Pilate half-heartedly tried to let Jesus go. Thus the offering with Barabus. The priests after Jesus's "trial" stired up the crowd against Jesus to the point of nearly a riot.
Remember that the first Christians and his 12 and the other 200 some desciples were mostly Jews.

That's one of the things that i find a little silly. Wasn't the whole point of the story the resurrection. If the guy didn't die then he couldn't come back and prove that he was the son of a god.

If Christians believe the Jews were the ones that killed him, surely they as a people should be revered 'cause they ultimately were the ones that proved it.

...here we go round the mulbrerry bush the mulberry bush the mulberry bush.........

It doesn't really matter who killed Jesus. Technically we all did. (as stated earlier) His death would have been carried out one way or the other. the sacrifice had to be made.

Merlin. We are "saved" not from owies and bad feelings from others or lack of wealth; we are "saved" from the burden of sin and the concequences there of. So in the "practical" sense visually, you would see not much. Only in those who's life was abrasive or off the beaten path morally.

In short. We are given a legal pardoned from that which we are doomed from birth... if only you take the walk down to the parol officer's office.

Duper wrote:....the sacrifice had to be made.

If it had to be made then why has it been a reason for hating jews. (the subject of the thread btw)

that's gonna get all into pre-knowledge, causality and issues of "can we really be held personally accountable for something we are pre-destined for? if we were pre-destined for it then isn't it the universe's responsability?"

it's like when someone is asleep and you put shaving cream in their palm then tickle their face. swatting away "dream flies" they end up smearing shaving cream all over their own face - even if they have pre-knowledge of the joke they still can't stop their automatic responses while they sleep.
damn funny too

If it had to be made then why has it been a reason for hating jews. (the subject of the thread btw)

but honestly... it's coz some ppl just have to hate. something... ANYTHING!!
I guess everyone does to some extent - define ourselves by what (or who) we hate.

roid wrote:but honestly... it's coz some ppl just have to hate. something... ANYTHING!!
I guess everyone does to some extent - define ourselves by what (or who) we hate.

I agree. I think there is a lot of dark pleasure to be had from hating and harboring feelings of contempt and presumed superiority over others. No one is immune from the temptation.

De Rigueur wrote:No one is immune from the temptation.

And this would include the Apostle Paul. For in his letter to Titus he says: "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might correct the things that were defective. . . . as these very men keep subverting entire households by teaching things they ought not for the sake of dishonest gain. A certain one of them, their own prophet, said: 'Cretans are always liars, injurious wild beasts, unemployed gluttons.' This witness is true. For this very cause keep on reproving them with severity, that they may be healthy in the faith." -Titus 1:5, 10 -13

Interesting statement by Paul, especially since he was speaking about Christian Cretans, as evident from his last statement about faith.

Flabby Chick wrote:

Duper wrote:....the sacrifice had to be made.

If it had to be made then why has it been a reason for hating jews. (the subject of the thread btw)

not true.

This was ordained by God from the beginning of time. I don't think the Nazi's hated the Jews for kiling Jesus. Likewise the Muslems. (The radical sect)


True Roid. Sadly, very true.

Duper wrote:not true.

This was ordained by God from the beginning of time. I don't think the Nazi's hated the Jews for kiling Jesus. Likewise the Muslems. (The radical sect)
True Roid. Sadly, very true.

So why do you think they hated them? You're completely missing the point. Jews had been persecuted long before Adolph and his cronies came along. Get your head out of the bible for a second and read a little history.

You say it was ordained by God. Fine. Dandy. The omniponent one ordained it. And a people did it. Spit on them and roast them (in the eyes of middle age christianity) Those people were the Jews; JC's peers. From then on the jews have been blamed for topping him off. If it was ordained, what does it matter who did it. Do you get what i mean?

EDIT: I know i'm not explaining meself too well; it's big BBQ night at Flabby's house and i'm inbetween bubbley pork steaks.

Flabby Chick wrote:From then on the jews have been blamed for topping him off. If it was ordained, what does it matter who did it. Do you get what i mean?

I believe I follow you. If it was ordained, it doesn't make sense to blame the Jewish people. I agree. I don't think antisemitism makes sense. It's disgraceful that some Christians adopt that attitude -- even Jesus said, "Father, forgive them. They know not what they do."

Flabby Chick wrote:EDIT: I know i'm not explaining meself too well; it's big BBQ night at Flabby's house and i'm inbetween bubbley pork steaks.

Pork? That's not quite kosher, is it? You're making me hungry.

Top Gun wrote:Money, most of the details that people have posted about Jesus' crucifixion and death are taken from the four Gospel accounts. As Weyrman mentioned, there are other historical sources of the day that mention Jesus, but the Gospels provide most of the details that we have about him. I don't know if they'll hold any weight for you at all as valid sources, but keep in mind that their authors/subjects were Jewish, so saying that they contain anti-Semitic elements wouldn't make much sense. With this in mind, I do want to say that The Passion of the Christ didn't implicate the Jewish people as a whole for any aspect of Jesus' death; it was, for the most part, completely faithful to the Gospel accounts. I'm not saying that you should automatically go out and see it, but I don't think you should dismiss it as anti-Semitic just because a few people have accused it of being so.

Let me get back to the Gospel accounts and why the Jewish leaders would want Jesus dead. (Note that I'm basing all of what I've written here on the Gospels.) At the time, Jesus was pretty much hated by the Jewish leadership; he had garnered a substantial following, and they were afraid that he would usurp their authority. Perhaps his worst offense in their eyes came from a theological standpoint; he claimed to be the Son of God, the Messiah, which to them was one of the worst blasphemies anyone could utter. There are many instances throughout the Gospels when the scribes and Pharisees attempted to trap Jesus; one notable example is when they asked him if it was right to pay taxes to the Romans. If Jesus had blatantly answered "no," it would have been considered treasonous. At any rate, the Jewish leadership sought for a way to have Jesus arrested; this was provided by Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus and turned him into the hands of the Jewish authorities. A trial was staged, and false witnesses were brought against him; it really wasn't much more than a show. During this time, Jesus responded to a question by proclaiming himself as being seated at God's right hand; this was the last straw as far as the chief priests and rabbis were concerned. On the day of the crucifixion, they brought Jesus before Pilate, since they didn't have the legal authority to execute him. Pilate interrogated Jesus and didn't find any evidence of cause for crucifixion. However, the Jewish leaders pressured him, saying that Jesus had declared himself a king and was therefore an enemy of Caesar. They also stirred up the crowds outside, getting them to call for the release of Barabbas, a revolutionary and murderer, in place of Jesus. When seeing the public opinion against him, Pilate literally washed his hands of the matter and ordered Jesus to be executed.

You mentioned that the Jews would have considered Jesus to be a prophet, and there's no doubt that many did (in fact, at least one of the Gospels says that many people considered Jesus to be one of the great prophets of the past), but I have the distinct feeling that that was the last thing on the chief priests' minds. Even if he was really a prophet, I don't think they would have been too pleased about it. I think the idea of Jesus as a prophet from the Jewish perspective is a relatively more modern development; he certainly wasn't treated as someone like Elijah in his own day, at least not by the Jewish leaders.

About Jesus as the Messiah: I think that what a few other people in this thread are trying to say is that they don't see how anyone familiar with the Hebrew Scriptures could look at Jesus' life and not see him as the Messiah. To be honest, I don't think that's a good approach; I'm certainly not going to stand here and tell you that you're lacking intelligence for not believing that Jesus is the Messiah, no matter what my own beliefs are. However, what I can say is that, throughout his teachings as presented in the Gospels, Jesus draws a great deal from the Hebrew Scriptures. One of the most notable examples I can remember comes after the crucifixion, when Jesus walks with two of his disciples on the road to Emmaus. They have no idea who he is, thinking of him as just a passing stranger, yet after they tell him the reason for their sadness, he begins to quote the Scriptures, stating why the Messiah had to suffer and die. I'm no great scholar of the Old Testament myself; besides from what I learned in grade/high school and the readings I hear every Sunday at church, my knowledge isn't all that in-depth. However, I do know that many of the Hebrew prophets, in particular Isaiah, often reference the Messiah, the type of person he would be, and what would happen to him. Isaiah's description of the Suffering Servant is one specific example that is very important. Christians believe that all of these examples refer to Jesus, and based on the Gospel accounts, the correlation is very strong. Obviously, since you're coming from a different viewpoint than I am, you see things very differently.

About sin in the world: that's a topic that no Christian can ever really give a good answer for. The example you gave of telling your sins to a priest actually only applies to Catholicism; Reconciliation is one of the seven sacraments that Catholics practice. This could easily lead into some Reformation-like topics, so before I go off on some crazy tangent, I'll stop myself. Suffice it to say that many Christians do not believe that the confession of sins is necessary for salvation. As for your underlying point about there still being evil in the world despite Jesus' coming, as I said, I'm no Old Testament scholar, so I can't really get as deep as I would like. However, I can tell you that Christians believe that Jesus died to bring salvation to all of humanity, not necessarily to instantly rid the world of all sin. I don't know if there's any specific passage in the Hebrew Scriptures that would suggest that specific viewpoint. As Christians, we believe that Christ's sacrifice enabled humanity to gain eternal salvation in heaven; it made up for the inherent state of sinfulness that is part of the human condition and is represented by the story of Adam and Eve. There is more to this, though; Christians also believe that, at the end of time, Christ will come again, and sin and evil will be completely wiped away. As I believe it is described at some point in the Hebrew Scriptures, the "old heaven and old earth" will be replaced by something new and beyond what we can comprehend, something perfect. That philosophy sounds a lot like what you're talking about. As I mentioned before, I think a careful study of the Hebrew Scriptures would really help to address this point.

I hope my answer has helped to at least provide a different perspective on the subjects you brought up. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Top Gun, I gained LOTS of respect for you after this post. It is well written, fair, and tells the facts without a twist on them. Everything you said about where I might have been biased or where I might have gone wrong with the facts was told straight and kindly. I did a little research on the topic myself and realized where I had been mistaken.

You explained how the Jews disliked Jesus, and why, and it correlated perfectly with my own research I had been doing on the subject. It makes perfect sense. Jesus undercut the Sanhedrin's power and challenged many "unquestionable" Jewish rules/regulations... of course they aren't going to like him. My post wondering why they didn't want him around was absolutley ignorant, but instead of saying that, you just told me the facts. Greatly appreciated.

You also explain about "The Passion of the Christ." I mentioned the movie as not being a credible source, when I had not even seen it. That is the stupidest thing someone can say; you can't pass judgement on something you haven't experienced. You could have called me out alot harder than you did on that one, but you didn't, you explained what I just said in a roundabout way. You say it is based on the Gospels... and you are nice enough to include "I don't know if they'll hold any weight for you at all as valid sources" which is charitable because I'm sure its one of very few sources of information for that time. Greatly appreciated on all counts again. I'm still not going to go see it though

Later, you point out my own ignorance yet again with "The example you gave of telling your sins to a priest actually only applies to Catholicism; Reconciliation is one of the seven sacraments that Catholics practice." There is an immense difference between these two groups, and I apoligize for forgetting. I can't believe I said that.

All in all you pretty much smacked the hell out of me, but properly. If I'm arguing, and someone disects my points without adding in useless adjectives (denounciations), I have extensive respect for them, because usually this is rare. That is what you just did. You have made me realize that I am more biased than I had thought, which is good to know. Thank you for pointing out my faults in the nicest possible way.

But, back to the question...

Flabby Chick wrote:

Duper wrote:not true.

This was ordained by God from the beginning of time. I don't think the Nazi's hated the Jews for kiling Jesus. Likewise the Muslems. (The radical sect)
True Roid. Sadly, very true.

So why do you think they hated them? You're completely missing the point. Jews had been persecuted long before Adolph and his cronies came along. Get your head out of the bible for a second and read a little history.

You say it was ordained by God. Fine. Dandy. The omniponent one ordained it. And a people did it. Spit on them and roast them (in the eyes of middle age christianity) Those people were the Jews; JC's peers. From then on the jews have been blamed for topping him off. If it was ordained, what does it matter who did it. Do you get what i mean?

EDIT: I know i'm not explaining meself too well; it's big BBQ night at Flabby's house and i'm inbetween bubbley pork steaks.

I get ya Flabby. um.. give a night to formulate a reasonable answer. It involves paradox and it's going to take a little time for me to put it down so it doesn't come off garbled.

Lothar or Drak can probabaly feild this one fast that I can. I understand the why, just collecting my resources as TO why will take a little work.
Have fun that the BBQ! (goony goo goo)

A more accurate thread title might be:

"Why do so many people dislike people?"

Money! wrote:As for who killed Jesus, if you are using "The Passion of the Christ" as a resource, please don't insult me.

I'm not. I'm using the Bible as a source. The Passion of the Christ also used the Bible as a source, and did a fairly good (though not perfect) job of retelling what's found in the four Gospels. My mention of it was because the same controversy came out when that movie was released -- people wanted to know why the Jews were the bad guys in the movie.

The short answer is that 99% of the characters in the story are Jews. Most of the bad guys are Jews, most of the good guys are Jews, and most of the extras are Jews. (Actually, a lot of Jewish prophets were killed by their fellow Jews. Again, in those stories, everyone is Jewish, so it's not surprising the bad guys are!)

Top Gun already gave a summary of the story, so I won't repeat it. I will mention, though, that you can find the Biblical accounts here -- use the frame on the left to navigate to Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, or John 18 and read until the end of whichever book you choose. Or, you can go rent Passion; it's not perfect, but it's a decent starting place.

As for a reason we don't think he is the messiah, well, we don't think that saying "I love Jesus" (rude generalization, but you get my point) will forgive all our sins. The Messiah was supposed to end sin. Jesus enables people to go to a priest, tell him what you did wrong, and say some prayers, and be done with it... which seems a little far fetched. There is still alot of sin happening in the world, and we don't think that someone being forgiven by God means no more sin.

That's not very close to what Christian scriptures say (though, unfortunately, it's close to what a lot of Christian children are taught. The church, like ancient Israel, does a horrible job of teaching about God.)

Remember that the Jewish scriptures (the Torah, the Tanakh, etc.) require blood to be shed for the forgiveness of sins. Typically this was the blood of a lamb, goat, or other animal, sacrificed in the tabernacle or the temple during certain holidays. The New Testament -- the Christian scriptures -- say that these sacrifices were like "shadows" of the real sacrifice, Jesus. When the Jewish high priest offered a sacrifice, the way was open for him to go in to God in the tabernacle (or the temple later in history) once per year. The New Testament says that Jesus is the true high priest and that His sacrifice opened the way for everyone to go to God permanently.
(See Hebrews 9 and 10 for the long version of this argument, or read the whole book of Hebrews.)

All the stuff about going to a priest and saying a little prayer was added on after the fact. Even the "say a little prayer about how you love Jesus" part was added after the fact. What the Bible says is that Christ died so that every one of us could go directly to God, and that God would make us righteous by transforming us.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Messiah is supposed to end sin, as in, stop all sin on the earth. What Jewish scripture says that? I'm pretty familiar with Jewish scripture, but I've never read that before. What I have read, though, is what Isaiah wrote about the Messiah. It sure sounds to me like what I just wrote above -- the Lord made him a guilt offering so that he would bear the sins of many and that many would be justified. It's passages like that, and Psalm 22, that make me wonder why some Jews don't view Jesus as the Messiah. What the Jewish scripture says the Messiah should be, and what the Christian scripture says Jesus is, seem to match to me.

---------------------

Flabby Chick wrote:

Duper wrote:This was ordained by God from the beginning of time. I don't think the Nazi's hated the Jews for kiling Jesus. Likewise the Muslems. (The radical sect)

So why do you think they hated them? You're completely missing the point. Jews had been persecuted long before Adolph and his cronies came along. Get your head out of the bible for a second and read a little history.

You say it was ordained by God. Fine. Dandy. The omniponent one ordained it. And a people did it. Spit on them and roast them (in the eyes of middle age christianity) Those people were the Jews; JC's peers. From then on the jews have been blamed for topping him off. If it was ordained, what does it matter who did it. Do you get what i mean?

First of all, Duper's point about the Nazis and Muslims is perfectly valid -- while the KKK might hate Jews "because they killed Jesus", the Nazis and Muslims couldn't care less who killed Jesus. The people who persecuted Jews 3000 years ago didn't care about Jesus either. Really, most Jew-haters couldn't care less about Jesus, it's just something a few of them use as an excuse. Most Jew-hatred comes from other sources.

Duper mentioned one spiritual source: the Jewish scriptures themselves say the Jews will be hated. Way back when Moses first gives the Law to Israel, he tells them that if they follow God they'll be blessed but if they turn away they'll be cursed. Later he retells the Law (Deuter-onomy = second law) to the people before they enter the promised land, and says that if they follow God and the Law they'll be blessed, but if they don't they'll be cursed, and being persecuted is part of that curse. When God appears to Solomon at the building of the temple, He says that if the people turns away from God, Israel will become a byword and an object of ridicule among all peoples. God says this is all intended to make the Jews come back to Him. Let me repeat, this is all in Jewish scripture written 3000 or more years ago -- if/when they turn from God, He will make them a persecuted people.

Now, this doesn't excuse those who persecute the Jews. God sends them to persecute the Jews, but they're still guilty for doing that. One good example of this -- again, from the Jewish scriptures -- is when God sends Assyria to destroy the northern kingdom of Israel for turning away, yet God also punishes the king of Assyria for it. God foretold and ordained it, but the Assyrians are still guilty for it. Those who hate Jews today are still guilty, even though God said they would 3000+ years ago.

-----------------

As for more secular reasons Jews are hated:

1) They're a people "set apart". This means they don't generally integrate well into other societies, and are viewed as outsiders. When people look to place blame somewhere, it generally goes to the outsiders -- Jews, gypsies, gays, whoever happens to be "different". (All of those groups were persecuted in WWII Germany, and long before.)

2) On average, they tend to outperform a lot of other groups. As was mentioned earlier, a lot of European Jews were jewelers and bankers (because they had no other choice) and they were pretty darn good at it. In the present, Israel vastly outperforms every nation around it. Now, think back to the last whiner you heard in a Descent game -- if he was sucking it up, he most likely called the best player in the game a hacker. The reality is, the whiner could very well be just as good if he quit blaming others for his own failures, but it's easier to just blame the expert. Same story here...

3) Jews claim to know the one true God. I know a lot of people who hate Christians for making that claim. It shouldn't be surprising that some people also hate Jews for it.

Lothar, those first two quotes you mentioned are the ones I think I regret most. They are biased and un-researched, and pretty derogatory. Believe it or not, but this post was born when I was slightly "infulenced" so some things I wrote are not something I would write at this momemnt. I am ashamed I put them on here, but I do not believe in the edit factor in changing main points. I tried to make up for them in my response to Top Gun.

You are right of course.

You know, I have never understood the perception that Christians hate Jews for killing Jesus. This is not an attitude I have observed among any Christians I've ever associated with--from whatever denomination or level of theological subtlety. Quite the opposite, most Christians regaurd modern-day Jews as still being God's people. They (and I, on some points) consider the formation of Israel in 1948 to be the fulfillment of ancient prophecy, and expect most of the action prophesied in Revelation to take place in Israel. Whether such views are theologically sound, they are very commonplace in the church.

Now, anybody who's been to Sunday School will tell you that the Pharisees were bad, bad, bad. Every Sunday School kid knows that the Jewish leaders in Jesus' day are the main villians of the gospels. The priests, the scribes, the Pharisees, the Sadducees... these are unmitigatedly evil in the Sunday School child's imagination (although this is an exaggeration--the new testament is harsh on them, but not quite that harsh). But the idea that this generalizes to all Jews is a certainly false one. All the major heroes of the new and old testament--Jesus, Paul, John, Mary, David, Moses, Abraham--names that thunder out of the Bible in the Christian's imagination--are Jews. You can count the number of major Bible characters that are not Jews on one hand (Adam, Eve, Noah, uh... Rahab, Ruth, uh... um... Cornelius? I'm reaching...). I'm pretty sure every Sunday School kid knows this. Despite considering many of the Jewish leaders villians, there is a holy glow around the Jewish people, ancient Israel, the old Jewish prophets, and--often--modern Israel.

That the Jews are the ones who plot to kill Jesus in the gospels is unremarkable. The Gospels are Jewish stories: Jesus is a Jew. The people he speaks to are Jews. The people who follow him are Jews. His disciples are Jews. He speaks and debates in the Jewish synagogues. That those who oppose him are also Jews is not a reflection on Jews in general, but a reflection of the fact that it is a Jewish story. Anyone familiar with the stories at even a Sunday School level knows this.

I know many people killed each other for odd religious reasons in the middle ages, and it would not surprise me to hear that the Christians oppressed the Jews then using this excuse. (My medieval history is pretty weak, though, so I don't know how true or false that story is.) But the idea that modern Christans bear this grudge is quite far from the truth, in my experience. I think it is the sort of thing that people who have no experience with Christians think they think. My experience in the Church has been quite the opposite: most Christians believe that while the Jews (anceint and modern) are wrong not to follow Jesus, God still grants them special favor, in spite of their having rejected Jesus.

You know it's a daft reason to hate Jews as do i, and within our own upbringing (mine was christian also) (lol 4 of my family has jewish homes from intermarriage come to think of it.) we don't see evidence of it, that dosn't make it not so.

I also can't accept deep hate based upon occupation; banker , merchant ect. It's deeper than that.

Later..i'm late for work again.

Flabby Chick wrote: I also can't accept deep hate based upon occupation; banker , merchant ect. It's deeper than that.

Flabby, one example was the propaganda Hitler used. He repeatedly told the German public that the Jews were reason for ruining thier economy. Remember that German was in a financial down spiral at the time. Lothar isn't suggesting the wholesale hated based on this as one major leg, but one reseason that is legitimate as insight.

What he DID say is that this was prophsied 3000 years ago. THIS is the principle reason for the persecution of Isreal.



.. I also know what it's like to hurriedly read through posts and try to get a responce down on your way out the door.

Great Posts Lothar and Drakona (as usual)!!

Come Duper you don't think living in this place i don't know how hitler went about his buisness. The thing is, this genetic hatred of the jews if you will, had to come from somwhere. It must have evolved from a source. I grant Lothar's point that Jews tended to insulate theselves from outsiders, i'll accept most of his points but it still dosn't address the crux of the arguement (imop) edit:('o' as in 'onest lol)

Drak, my brother-in-law hasn't played descent. Dosn't mean it's not out there.

I reckon this genetic racial hatred of jews is the end result of an evolution of hatred that started with religious hatred.

ya' know jelousy causes alotta inexplicable emotions

will_kill wrote:ya' know jelousy causes alotta inexplicable emotions

Haha, maybe that is what it all boils down to...

Jk guys

Drakona wrote:My experience in the Church has been quite the opposite: most Christians believe that while the Jews (anceint and modern) are wrong not to follow Jesus, God still grants them special favor, in spite of their having rejected Jesus.

The Jews were wrong to not follow Jesus, but God does not grant them special favor any longer. That special favor was transfered to Christians. As Paul said, "The Law was a tutor that lead to Christ." Read the book of Hebrews and you should see quite plainly that God transfered his favor to followers of Jesus, those who accept his sacrifice and recognize him as the true messiah. God has rejected the Jewish system, (which is based on the Law of Moses given to the Jews by God) because it was always intended to be temporary until the Messiah came. This was made clear in 70 AD when the temple was completely destroyed by the Romans; the Arronic preisthood is gone, the system of sacrifices is gone, the Holy of Holies, where the Shekina Light resided, is gone.

God will favor the Jews, as he will anyone, if they accept the ransom of Jesus and become his diciples.