DescentBB

Bet51987 wrote:Dissent, you asked me a question and I answered it. Without getting into my personal reasons again which are all over this dbb, I have read more bibles and talked to more priests than I can remember. I don't mind going to hell for my beliefs, if it turns out that there really is a heaven and hell, but unlike the pedo priest, murderers, and child killers going to heaven because they believe Jesus was the son of god, I will go to hell knowing I never hurt my fellow human. ...

Well, there are both sins of commission and sins of omission.

Either way, I only answered the question.
Bettina

Must be slow, I missed it. Seems to me you just repeated the same ridiculous statement you had made before about the pedophile priests. If you want to be serious about it, then I invite you to challenge your current perceptions about what you believe your church is and what it is telling you. It sounds to me like you are mistaken about many things. That's not a bad thing in itself; we all have room to learn and grow. But don't expect me to take you seriously if you are not willing to try to develop an adult level of spirituality.

dissent wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:Dissent, you asked me a question and I answered it. Without getting into my personal reasons again which are all over this dbb, I have read more bibles and talked to more priests than I can remember. I don't mind going to hell for my beliefs, if it turns out that there really is a heaven and hell, but unlike the pedo priest, murderers, and child killers going to heaven because they believe Jesus was the son of god, I will go to hell knowing I never hurt my fellow human. ...

Well, there are both sins of commission and sins of omission.

Either way, I only answered the question.
Bettina

Must be slow, I missed it. Seems to me you just repeated the same ridiculous statement you had made before about the pedophile priests. If you want to be serious about it, then I invite you to challenge your current perceptions about what you believe your church is and what it is telling you. It sounds to me like you are mistaken about many things. That's not a bad thing in itself; we all have room to learn and grow. But don't expect me to take you seriously if you are not willing to try to develop an adult level of spirituality.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, but I am an adult and already made my decision in life. I initially made a general comment in this thread not thinking someone was going to ask me a question. When you asked, I honored you with an answer.

(John 11:25-26 I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. )

The pedo priest who truly believes in god, and knows him to be true, yet has sinned for 40 years, can still do gods work while continuing to ask god for help with his sickness. In his final hours, he can still confess his sins and ask for repentence and have a good chance for redemption as long as he believes Jesus is the son of god.

I, according to the bible, will fare far worse than the pedo, because I do not believe that Jesus was the son of god and I will not go to heaven if there is one. I believe Jesus was similar to Billy Graham, a good guy that wanted to build a church but instead was crucified and buried. IMO Someone stole his body for reasons unknown and that was the end of that. No resurection...no god. The god of the bible is a cruel evil thing that I want no part of and I reject him completely.

So, even though I am atheist, I still intend to live a moral life, help those in church, and not hurt anyone, which is more than I can say for some Christians. I do not understand an "adult level of spirituality"

Please remember that we all have our POV's. I do not knock anyone for believing in god as long as they don't kill people for disagreeing with them.

Bettina

Bet51987 wrote:I didn't mean to offend anyone, but I am an adult and already made my decision in life.

Bettina, I also "made decisions" when I was 18. I am now pushing 50. The best advice I can give you is to put your helmet on. Life is coming.

I do not understand an "adult level of spirituality"

Yes, I can see that you do not. The question is whether you intend to do anything about it or not.

dissent wrote:Bettina, I also "made decisions" when I was 18. I am now pushing 50. The best advice I can give you is to put your helmet on. Life is coming.

x2

Bet51987 wrote:(John 11:25-26 I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. )

The pedo priest who truly believes in god, and knows him to be true, yet has sinned for 40 years, can still do gods work while continuing to ask god for help with his sickness. In his final hours, he can still confess his sins and ask for repentence and have a good chance for redemption as long as he believes Jesus is the son of god.

You have obviously missed the point of Lothar's post and my post.

Your understanding is off the mark here. God is not stupid. You shouldn't be either, but your comments demonstrate a gross lack of understanding. "Believing" in Christ is more than just head knowledge, it implies action based on right motivation. Hypocrites, like pedo priests, will be cast out, regardles of their spiritual understanding. As Lothar said, not everyone calling Jesus "LORD" will enter into the kingdom of heaven - only those "doing" the will of the father will recieve that reward.

Bettina wrote:I didn't mean to offend anyone

Heh. Don't worry about offending anyone. Just also don't be offended when we "true believers" try to respond.

Bettina wrote:The pedo priest who truly believes in god, and knows him to be true, yet has sinned for 40 years, can still do gods work while continuing to ask god for help with his sickness. In his final hours, he can still confess his sins and ask for repentance and have a good chance for redemption as long as he believes Jesus is the son of god.

Yes, I DO believe that even someone as EVIL and reprehensible as a priest who has sexually abused children can turn back to God and repent and be forgiven. But this means a WHOLE lot more than just mouthing the words "I believe in Christ", even if you REALLY believe it.

To reiterate what others have been saying:
Jas 2:19-20 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

It's not a surface thing, it has to be true repentance. And a true acceptance of Christ into their life in a way that will change, reform and renew that life. Nothing short of that will do.

I think you are trying to view heaven as a "reward", I know it's often been preached that way, but its an incomplete picture. It leads to confusion, such as you are stating above. Here you have lived a fairly decent life, and yet this lousy pedophile whom most of humanity (including myself) would have no problem burning alive, HE gets the prize? But its not the kind of prize you can earn. Heaven is wherever Christ is.

You could, after a fashion, say that getting to spend time with your own father is a reward for having been good. But that would be a VERY incomplete picture. The only reason it IS a reward at all is because you have a relationship with your father and you LIKE to spend time with him. If you didn't, it would be a punishment.

God isn't some evil miser up in heaven with a big score board putting down marks and hoping he can keep people out of heaven. God is begging ANYONE who will, to come to Him, and get to know Him, so that BEING with Him for an eternity would actually be a reward. You can't earn your way into heaven, no amount of good work, by itself, will make heaven a reward. The Pharasies followed all the "rules", but the certainly didn't want to spend time with Christ. And God will not FORCE anyone to spend eternity with Him who does not want to.

As C. S. Lewis said: "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done' and those to whom God says, 'Thy will be done.'" At the final Judgment, there are those who rush to Christ with open arms, because they WANT to be with him, and it wouldn't matter if Christ were in a pit of eternal fire and brimstone, as long as He were there, it would be heaven. But on the other hand, there are those who couldn't stand to be with Christ. It wouldn't matter to them if he lived in a perfect, green, beautiful place, as long as they had to be with Him, it would be Hell. And God won't force them to be in his presence if they don't want to be. They want NOTHING to do with God. And in the end, God complies and says "Thy will be done" to these people. He withdraws his presence from them entirely, and since His power maintained their very existence, that withdrawal result in their annihilation.

So you see, it's not about rewarding the good people and punishing the bad. It's about everyone getting what they want, and some people do NOT want to be with Christ.

Bettina wrote:I believe Jesus was similar to Billy Graham, a good guy that wanted to build a church but instead was crucified and buried.

Someone crucified Billy Graham! Oh My!

Sorry, couldn't resist injecting one small note of humor into this very serious discussion!

Bet51987 wrote:I, according to the bible, will fare far worse than the pedo

You only think this because you misunderstand the Bible. I don't know whether to blame your priests, your study habits, the translation you're using, or some combination... but you clearly misunderstand.

Time and time again, the Bible makes the point that "belief" or "faith" in the sense of "agreeing with an idea in your mind" is worthless. The only sort of "belief" or "faith" that's worth anything is the sort that you act upon -- the sort that's so strong and so real that it transforms the way you act. It's not just belief "about" Jesus, but belief "in" Jesus. Merely believing the idea that "Jesus is God's son" is worthless; Jesus says that some who call Him "Lord" will still go to hell because their ACTIONS don't follow what they claim to believe. The only thing of value is believing in Jesus to the point that your behavior begins to mirror His, your priorities mirror His, your life mirrors God's will. (The term for this is "regenerate".)

The pedo priest doesn't have that. If he's abusing children, his priorities are not God's priorities and his behavior doesn't mirror Jesus' behavior. (The term for this is "unregenerate".)

Here's something that might offend some other Christians here: I think it's possible for people who don't even know the name "Jesus" to be regenerate. I think it's possible for people to have a very real relationship with God, to align their priorities with His, to live their lives according to His desires, without mentally agreeing to the text of the Bible. And I think you display far more signs of being regenerate than many who call themselves "Christian".

Lothar wrote:I think it's possible for people who don't even know the name "Jesus" to be regenerate.

Completely biblical:
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

There is only ONE path to Salvation, Jesus Christ. But you don't have to know the name of the road you are on, just as long as you are on the right road.

A good illustration is the story of Emeth in "The Last Battle".

Thanks for the links, and I read them even though its old news to me.

I've erased my comments five times already because I didn't like what I had to say. I don't like to argue with people I play with but nothing will change my mind about god.

So, with that, cya in the mines and thanks.

Bettina

Bet51987 wrote:nothing will change my mind about god.

That is a sad comment. Time and time again many of us have tried to show you how your understanding of the bible is not accurate from a biblical point of view. Your view of God is in error - a distorted view you seem to relish. And I suppose that will always be, based on your posts - and that's the sad part; you are an intelligent young woman, and yet you insistantly reject any attempt to add insight to your understanding.

The bible does say that faith is not the possession of all people. Too bad. Very sad.

Bettina wrote:I've erased my comments five times already because I didn't like what I had to say. I don't like to argue with people I play with but nothing will change my mind about god.

Don't let us get you down. We go on about this for two reasons. First because we LIKE talking about God and Salvation. It's important to us. Discussing and learning about something so central to our lives is natural. Second, we care. From our perspective, to reject God is a terrible mistake. If we didn't respond, it would mean we didn't care.

Kilarin wrote:If we didn't respond, it would mean we didn't care.

yup!

Bet51987 wrote:nothing will change my mind about...

It's sad to see anyone say that, regardless of what the rest of the sentence is. Closed-mindedness is NOT a virtue.

There's nothing wrong with being fairly certain in a particular viewpoint, especially if you arrived at it due to strong evidence. There's nothing wrong with saying "the evidence you've presented is unconvincing". But being unwilling to even consider alternatives, NO MATTER WHAT, is a sign of intellectual cowardice. That's regardless of what viewpoint you actually hold.

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One thing that utterly fascinates me is the number of people on this board who've said something like "I grew up in Catholic school" or "I went to church until I was in my 20s" or whatever... and then they proceed to say things about the Bible or Christian doctrine that are just mind-bogglingly wrong. I remember once Drakona mentioned one of the themes of the Bible is that nobody can be good enough to earn God's favor, and Birdseye's response made me think he'd never heard the idea before. That's like playing Descent for 10 years and not ever seeing a fusion cannon.

Do Christian schools, Sunday schools, priests, etc. really teach that badly? Bettina, do your priests really teach you that unrepentant pedophiles who use the name "Jesus" will go to heaven?

If so, it's no wonder some people reject Christianity so passionately.

Lothar wrote:Do Christian schools, Sunday schools, priests, etc. really teach that badly?

It does seem to me that many Christian schools, churches, priests, etc. do NOT encourage the lay person to actually do any Bible study on their own. The average Christian knows more about what happened on American Idol this week than they do about Salvation.

Please note, I am NOT talking about atheists or agnostics, I'm talking about conservative Christians whos only knowledge of the Bible is what the preacher mentioned in the pulpit recently. And if they are REALLY conservative, you can add whatever Dobson told them in his last show. They don't actually ever crack open the source material and study at all.

I find it confusing. And very disturbing when I turn my aim back upon myself and realize that I frequently spend more time playing descent (or any of a dozen other trivial pursuits) then studying my Bible. If we Christians are SERIOUS about believing that God is the center of EVERYTHING, especially our own lives, we should give Him more time.

[edit]Bettina says she HAS read the Bible from cover to cover. In my opinion that puts her way ahead of much of the "angry at God" crowd. I disagree with her conclusions, but I think she reached them because she has been hurt. It's often difficult to see through the pain, even when you try to. I give her high points for having at least tried.[/edit]

Yeah, I agree that Bettina gets points for trying. But I also agree with Lothar that, as an adult, just saying you've tried in the past (and, therefore, you are done trying) does not get you enough points to pass this test.

Maybe it's my science training; there what you accept is up for grabs every day. We learn to live with this. It keeps life interesting, if one is paying attention. I don't think it is any different for me as a religious believer.

When I stop asking questions, you'll know that I'm dead.

Kilarin wrote:If we didn't respond, it would mean we didn't care.

Thirded.

I hope and pray that you will be able to open your mind to God at some point in your life. I'm sure many of us will be.

Also, although mildness was mentioned as a virtue, and fits of anger as ungodly, but what of rage towards injustice? I know this may seem a bit unchristian, but recall that Christ Himself once used it against merchants at the temple, for defaming His Father's house.

As a side note: With all the temples, synagogues, and churches in the world, I'd hate to have to work out God's property taxes.

Shadowfury333 wrote:but what of rage towards injustice? I know this may seem a bit unchristian, but recall that Christ Himself once used it against merchants at the temple, for defaming His Father's house.

Not unChristian at all. And I think it is a very NATURAL response to be furious at the injustice and evil we see in this world. Even to be mad at God about it. In my opinion, this is one of the primary theme's of the book of Job (as I discussed here)

God couldn't explain to Job WHY all the bad things were happening, Job had to learn to trust Him (based on good evidence) and get explanations later.

Kilarin wrote:Not unChristian at all. And I think it is a very NATURAL response to be furious at the injustice and evil we see in this world. Even to be mad at God about it. In my opinion, this is one of the primary theme's of the book of Job (as I discussed here)

God couldn't explain to Job WHY all the bad things were happening, Job had to learn to trust Him (based on good evidence) and get explanations later.

Bett could use this.

Personally, I've never been mad at God about it. I have become quite cynical towards other people, however. I'm currently trying to work out a balance.

Anyway, I think this thread has run its course. Good discussion everyone. Thankfully there didn't seem to be too many hard feelings.