DescentBB

He should be taken out of the education system and find a new career. He's not fit to teach anyone anything.

Well, I can't exactly provide hard evidence, since I am not an investigator and I was not there.

What I CAN provide is my reasoning. I believe the story is a hoax for three reasons.

One; A teacher, no matter what his opinions are, cannot bring a student out from a desk and sit him down on the floor of a class. People can see inside the class because of the number of windows.

Two; the story is so thin it leaves oppourtunities for speculation that are so large you could drive a Peterbilt though them.

Three; even though I've known real jackasses that were teachers, none of them would even contemplate ridiculing a student based on the team he admired. Also, most teachers seem to turn a blind eye to ridicule, not take an active part in it.

Ferno wrote:One; A teacher, no matter what his opinions are, cannot bring a student out from a desk and sit him down on the floor of a class. People can see inside the class because of the number of windows.

I've seen it happen a number of times. Not in situations exactly like this, but I've seen teachers have students do some strange stuff in class.

My 12th grade history teacher had a policy that if you were late to class you had to do pushups. This was a first-period class so there were usually 2 or 3 people doing pushups any given class period. Another teacher had a policy that if you were late you had to "sit" against the wall in an imaginary chair, and the class would laugh at you straining until you finally went down.

Two; the story is so thin it leaves oppourtunities for speculation that are so large you could drive a Peterbilt though them.

The story has been reported in several news outlets, and not just rewrites of the same AP story. There haven't been any retractions or statements that the events didn't happen, but there have been plenty of comments from students at the same school...

Three; even though I've known real jackasses that were teachers, none of them would even contemplate ridiculing a student based on the team he admired.

Ahhh... but this isn't a normal class. It's a class on ethnic / race relations, and it appears the teacher regularly picks students to be "targets" in order to demonstrate various points about racism etc. Here's something out of the above news article:

"I think it was blown out of proportion," sophomore Philip McCargo said. "I had papers thrown at me all the time when I was in that class."

Junior Ruth Andrews agreed. She and the other students cited various examples of students who were singled out to teach everyone a lesson.

Andrews said it might not seem fair, but "discrimination isn't fair."

She said the class is valuable to the students, and the controversy is "making the school and the class look bad."

The students also pointed out that if Vannoy was concerned about his test score, he would have the opportunity to retake the test. Andrews said Kelly has always had a policy that if a student is not happy with his grade, he can take the test again.

They reported this story on ESPN as well during SportsCenter (A respectable, well-accredited news source, I know)

Anyway, I think that had this been done on a day where the teacher was lecturing or proving a point or whatever, it wouldn't be that big a deal. But he did it on a test day. That's just distracting. I mean, I can work well even with noise and distractions, but people yelling at me and throwing stuff at me would distract anybody.

I'm all for being thick-skinned and not getting offended easily but this is kind of major. It's degrading and obviously the kid didn't take it as a joke.

heh. now i'm seeing small differences in the story.

the original one reported the kid 'sat down'. Now i'm seeing that he was told to 'lay on the floor'?

o_0

Beo, remember when new york times was known as credible but a fake story surfaced there?

I still have my doubts.

The teacher, John Kelly, forced Joshua Vannoy to sit on the floor and take the test Friday

in my original post Ferno. did you miss this?

That's what i meant by 'sat down'.

not the forced part?

Ferno wrote:Beo, remember when new york times was known as credible but a fake story surfaced there?

Yep. I also remember when Dan Rather was thought to be credible. This was before he aired the forged memos and then stood by them. (His producer, Mary Mapes, wrote a book claiming the memos were legit. What a dope.)

But... what we have here is a case of multiple papers producing original stories on the same subject. They're not just repeating one story; there's clearly new material in some of the stories I quoted above. There are different perspectives, small inconsistancies that you expect from multiple people describing the same events. (If there were no inconsistancies, it would be a sign that everyone was copying one story; inconsistancies show that multiple perspectives have been given. Too many inconsistancies would raise deeper questions.) I seriously doubt this is fake, since multiple papers appear to have interviewed people from the school or the district and nobody -- no papers, no blogs, no school district websites -- has made a statement that it didn't happen.

If we ever needed proof that ccb is a moron....

Seriously, the kid gets rediculed, and its HIS fault? wtf are you on pal? Thats like saying child abuse is the fault of the child just because it can't \"suck it up\". You're the one that needs help. I don't care how old the kid is, he shouldn't have to put up with tools like that. Seeing as I actually had a teacher like that, I completely sympathize with the kid.

The telling argument from me is that the \"teacher\", when confronted with the information, said that he was surprised that the student \"couldn't take a joke\". Supposedly in this class, some students were ridiculed for one reason or another to \"teach\" them about racism. If the teacher had planned this as a part of the class lesson, then he should have said so, not claimed it was a joke.

dissent wrote:The telling argument from me is that the "teacher", when confronted with the information, said that he was surprised that the student "couldn't take a joke". Supposedly in this class, some students were ridiculed for one reason or another to "teach" them about racism. If the teacher had planned this as a part of the class lesson, then he should have said so, not claimed it was a joke.

That's what got me, too.

If the teacher stood by the statement that "this is a lesson about racism, and everyone gets put in that position over the course of the year so that they all get to experience unfair discrimination" I'd be pretty sympathetic. If, as other articles have stated, it's a serious lesson about discrimination and the kid in the middle of it had the opportunity to re-take the test, then I'm sympathetic. But if it was a joke, a prank pulled on the kid because the teacher really *was* biased against him, I'm not so sympathetic.

so with that, we're back to the title of this thread.

ccb056 wrote:The kid is an idiot, everyone has been singled out for one reason or another, this kid needs to grow up and not blame his inadequacy on someone else.

He's a 17 year old kid throwing a tantrum like a 5 year old.

ccb,

your comment is tremendously idiotic. I hope it's just a temporal blackout of yours.

For a guy at that age, it is very humiliating to be treated like that by the entire class at the command of a person of authority he cannot really do anything against. If this had happened in Germany, that "teacher had already lost his job. But then, we have only qualified teachers here.

I just wonder why he didn't refuse to sit on the floor, or just walked out. That's what I would have done.

True story or not, it is "interesting" what it reveals about some people's thinking here.

ccb056 wrote:Roid, you seem to know alot about psychology, how did you get your knowledge?

sorry i havn't answered this as yet, i'm not sure exactly what you're asking for.
i read online, listen to people, silently "people watch", pay attention when hearing or reading psychological theorys, listen to doctors, analyse myself & other people, contemplate stuff. "Know Thyself".
Is that kinda what you wanted to know? were you looking for some books or websites or ... what

I usually don't get in a disucssion like this, mostly because I think setting around finger-pointing is the most usless thing a person can do, but this my help....

ethnicity
n : an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or
cultural ties; \"ethnicity has a strong influence on
community status relations\"

Quote from classmate that was there

Im glad everyone got there comments in but now its my turn since i am in that exact class and was present during this \"Incident\". First of all the class is called Ethnic Relations. it is the study of Religions, culture, and most of all actions between people of different ethnic backgrounds. if Josh felt humiliated then good for him because that is what the class is about. Near the end of the year we have a project that we do for a long period of time. we have to wear the star of david with a big E in the middle of it and no matter what we are told we have to do it. for example, if we are told to sit in the middle of the class then you better do it or you lose points. This is to represent the jews during the holocaust. everyone in the class is aware of this project and probably 50 percent of them took the class wanting to do the project. so before anyone makes any more comments think about what the class is about not what happened and the opinion of 1 student.

Elwood City Ledger
A link for a local newspaper

Beaver Falls resident Kevin Drake, a 2005 graduate who had Kelly's class, said the teacher often proves a point by making students get on the floor, particularly during the Jewish Holocaust section of the class, or when he's teaching about the black experience during the 1940s and '50s.

\"Nobody really knows the true story. Everybody is making it look like the student just walked into the classroom not knowing what to expect. Mr. Kelly is trying to show what it was like back then. To me, he was making the kid an example to show students this is what happened to people,\" said Drake, 19, of Beaver Falls.

I think the national attention and lawyers will do him more harm then this teacher ever could. Experience is still the best teacher and this is a lesson that Joshua is not going to soon forget.

topix.net for more information

I bring you the update: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06027/645419.stm

change the complexion of things?

Lets me know Elway is a class act... but I knew that already.

Yeah, that really impresses me that he did that.

Nowhere in the story does it say the kid told anyone to stop doing whatever it was they were doing during the test. Therefore, the kid showed no resistance to what was going on. There are a few possible reasons for this: The kid was going to fail the test anyway and did not care, This happened all the time and was therefore part of the normal class experience and the kid did not care, or the kid just did not care.

By not asking anyone to stop, the only person he can blame is himself. The student cannot blame anyone else except himself because his intentions were not verbalized.

The kid showed no resistance during the event that supports he was demoralized or wrongfully attacked.

In fact, if the sole reason the kid did poorly on the test was because of the classroom interefernce, then everyone did poorly on the test. If everyone was 'attacking' the kid during the test, then no one would be able to take the test peacefully.

The only reason this went to the media is because the kid got a poor grade on a test, went to mommy and daddy with a distorted tale of the facts, and mommy and daddy went bonkers. I can assure you that if this kid had not done poorly on the test, we would not be arguing at all.

The reason the kid did poorly is because he is a dumbass.

Try telling that to new army recruits during their \"initiation\" phase and see if they are allowed to speak up. Stop being a dumbass unsympathetic (_O_) CCB. Man, I'd hate to be related to you in any fashion.

ccb056 wrote:Nowhere in the story does it say the kid told anyone to stop doing whatever it was they were doing during the test.

Does that mean it didn't happen, or just that it wasn't reported?

I tend to agree with you -- from what I've heard, I'm inclined to think the kid is using this for cover for his inability to grasp the course material. He could've taken a retest but didn't, other kids reported having the same thing happen to them as a regular part of class, and none of his classmates have stepped up to take his side. But "the newspaper didn't say he asked people to stop" isn't a very good argument in that direction.

If he did ask people to stop, that would have been a VERY SIGNIFICANT fact and WOULD HAVE BEEN REPORTED in at least one of the many stories. The fact that it wasnt reported means it did not happen.

ccb056 wrote: The fact that it wasnt reported means it did not happen.

you cannot be serious. that has to be the most assanine thing i've ever heard

Not when you actually think about it,

The newspaper obviously wants the reads to feel sympathetic towards the kid, any competent writer knows that a great way to do this is show that the kid was in distress, the most primary exhibition of this is a call for help. So, any knowledgeable and competent writer would have included that in their report, since NONE of the writers did this, it never happened.

so using your logic, during WW2 they never reported about the hallocaust so it never happened. it actually occured after the fall of Germany. or better yet CBS's falsified documents on President Bush makes it true because they reported it. your logic is so flawed its laughable

Neither the media nor the availability of information is the same now as it was in WW2. Not to mention the camps were located in Europe and not the US.

Rather's documents has nothing to do with this, that was an admission of fiction done by a liberal media outlet to discredit the president; this is the lack of proof to support the kid.

Rather's document admission coincides with his motive to get rid of Bush.

The not reporting of the kid asking people to stop is contrary to the media's objective of making the student appear as a victim.

Obiviously ccb has never had a proper understanding of the concept of intimidation. I've actually been in a similar situation before when I was a freshman in high school. I find it amusing that you can sit in your chair and talk about something you have never gone through yourself. How can you have the gaul to make assumptions like that? How do YOU know he didn't offer any resistance? Were you there? Did you get any eyewitness accounts? The fact that it wasn't part of any reporter's accounts doesn't mean it didn't take place. By your logic, if I sit down for an interview and accidentally crack off a stinker of a fart...yet the reporter makes no mention of it, it never happened. Nice logic train there ccb.

By not asking anyone to stop, the only person he can blame is himself. The student cannot blame anyone else except himself because his intentions were not verbalized.

Did it ever occur to you that he may have been too scared to speak up?

By your logic, if I sit down for an interview and accidentally crack off a stinker of a fart...yet the reporter makes no mention of it, it never happened. Nice logic train there ccb

Dude, you didn't even read his reasoning.

No, he didn't, and even if he did, I don't think he has the mental capacity to digest it.

ccb, I understand the possibility (and in fact the likelihood) that the reporter was trying to generate sympathy for the kid, and I totally agree with you that the kid is probably using this as a cheap excuse to cover for his inability to grasp the class material.

But I don't think the reporter was in the classroom watching and recording things in the most sympathetic light possible. More likely, the reporter interviewed the kid, asked around the school, and then put together the comments that best fit the story he wanted to get out. He passed the story through an editor, who then published it. There are a lot of steps there where \"the kid asked them to stop\" could get left out. The mere absence of that particular comment from the reports doesn't really establish much of anything.

EDIT: the biggest flaw in your reasoning, IMO, is that you're assuming the existance of competent and informed reporters

What establishes this kid is probably using the paper-throwing as a cheap excuse for failing is the cumulative weight of the argument:
- a description of this and similar activities as happening regularly to various students *because* the class is talking about discrimination
- statements by other classmates that the kid could've retaken the test, as is the teacher's policy
- not a single reporter or website has quoted any classmate as saying \"he asked us to stop\" or \"it was really messed up the way we treated him\" or \"yeah, Mr. McTeacherGuy crossed the line\" or anything even remotely supportive of the student... instead, the quotes are all \"this was normal\" and \"he could've retaken the test\" and \"that's what the class is about\"...

I really don't care whether or not the kid is using this to get out of a bad grade. What disturbs me is how this type of behavior is considered \"normal\" for that class, and even more so that all of the people who've gone through that class seem to support it. Trying to teach students about racial/ethnic discrimination is one thing, but chucking paper at them and verbally abusing them? That's just messed up.