DescentBB

Well, as for your latest submissions, Lightwolf:

Overall impressions - uneven quality across levels, very intricate rooms strung together with rudimentary tunnels, lazy copypasta design in places, still too much emphasis on symmetry, texturing at times very beautiful and tasteful and at times horrendous, bad use of lights, mandatory puzzles too difficult (seriously, you should NEVER make puzzles that hard mandatory to progression), ubiquitous flat doors on walls. All the levels have their strong points, but all of them also have their share of problems, such as the ones mentioned above, which in my opinion disqualifies the submissions. The only level I would be even remotely inclined to fix these problems in is De'Gaffa - even then the entire boss room either needs an overhaul or the boss needs to be replaced by a reactor. Seriously, what were you thinking making such a small and plain boss room for the Tycho Brahe boss? Other than that, this level would still need plenty of love poured into it to make it work, and I just might be assed to do it someday.

The first portion of the secret level was fairly interesting, I also liked the texture use quite a lot, but it went downhill from there with the lazy copy/paste design later on.

You should focus less on confusing trigger mazes and more on laying out a level according to a plan, or at least knowing what kind of area you want to make.

Alter-Fox wrote: BTW, when I get home tonight I'll 100% commit L'aeeve Installation, Litter Jungle and Ceres Military Perimeter (or whichever that one is) to the mission so we can stop all this horsing around with L'aeeve. Ceres may need a few texture adjustments to fit the theme but I'll let you take a look and see what you think should be done first Xfing.

Appreciate it! As for Ceres, I had the idea of it being almost entirely green - one artist's impression of Ceres I saw made me think it would be such. It's actually the image I hijacked and uploaded to dropbox to be used for the briefing screen of Ceres. So yeah, D1 greens and whites - kinda like a D1-only Puuma Sphere. That could look really cool.

As for L'aeev - as it is right now, I think it fits better in a Vertigo slot than a Baloris one to be perfectly honest - due to the center hub being texutred in a very D1 fashion, even containing that blue floor and all. It could of course remain a Baloris level, but we'd have to retexture it a bit, at least that part of it, while leaving or adding in some D1 touches as per the design policy. Everything else makes it fit nicely with Baloris so why not.

And as for Litter Jungle - a gimmick level filled with melee enemies only would not only be a nice throwback to level 15 of Descent, it would also be way, and I mean WAY too easy to be placed in the Vertigo portion. So yeah, I think we keep the gimmick and just retexture the level to make it fit somewhere in the Solar System portion.

Alrighty Lightwolf -- I took a look at your newest maps, here's some feedback:
Doors on flat walls is a chronic problem for you, there's a reason Parallax rarely ever did that. Think about it, don't just build blindly and then wonder why half of your submissions are being ignored. Even your best maps are absolutely plagued with this; it's going to need to be fixed but it's going to be very hard for you to do that now that it's already there -- and if it doesn't get fixed those maps will be rejected and replaced by somebody else.

The good news is, of the five new maps De'gaffa Station is the only bad one. All the others are workable although they do need some work!

Quartzon Aqua Distillata Factory is pretty good, it's a good length for a Quartzon map and I really like some of your ideas. There are waaay too many flat walled doors though (including the exit! it's almost impossible to see it lying flat on a brown ceiling like that!) and too many areas that are just featureless square hallways. Deal with those two things, though, and you've got a winner.
I'm not sure the underwater section is a good idea in a mission that's specifically Parallax-inspired, and the red key puzzle could stand to be a little bit shorter.

Katatonia: I didn't have time to play much of this one since I have to leave soon but what I saw was very very good. I love the room designs and the puzzle getting to the top of the ring section although I think that gimmick could get really frustrating if you used it too much.

And as for your Ktsch'k W'eng III: I don't like the start room much, I think that needs a complete redesign and there are too many doors on flat walls especially in room with the yellow key -- like I say a lot, they look like they're made out of paper. Those wall lights don't make very good grates either, they need to be changed just like in your Puuma level. On that topic the whole level would work better if it was somewhat darker; it's got a creepy vibe and you could work with that instead of against it like you seem to be trying to. And the secret exit shouldn't be visible when you're just wandering around.
The rest of the design is really good though; deal with those things and I think this one could get into the mission -- I may even concede a bit of my territory after you make those improvements. I don't think it can go into La'eeve though, Xfing's told me that map can't have hostages and your forcefield hostage cell is too cool to take out.

Finally Beta Ceti Military Base isn't bad. It has still got your door problem in places that are gonna need to be dealt with, there are some good room designs although some places like the energy center look horrible. I don't think it's good enough for a penultimate map but if you put a bunch more effort into it it might fit in someplace unobtrusive.
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To be honest, I'm very tired of having to sift through a mound of half-arsed maps from you to find the ones that are just passable -- the ones where you actually put some effort in. If you want to map like this for your own recreation that's fine, but I would suggest that you start a new thread to get feedback on them from us to see if they've even got a chance before you post them in this one. This thread is getting flooded with maps from you that are mostly not going to make it and it's going to make things needlessly confusing once this project gets further down the line.

By the way, I've got a layout ready for Puuma Sphere 3.

Alter-Fox wrote:By the way, I've got a layout ready for Puuma Sphere 3.

Bring it on

Alrighty...
I seem to be incapable of remembering the names I'm supposed to give these maps, but at least that's an easy change. It is populated, only to make it more palatable when I was testing. But you could use that as a starting point for where stuff can go, I guess. I did happen to fill this one with drones, medium lifters and pests so that fits with the name anyway. It's got an aesthetic closer to Descent Maximum than Descent 2 Counterstrike but it's a lot bigger. The only problem I've had with the map is sometimes guidebot thinks he's outside his cell when he's still in it, that's why right now there's a cell but no guidebot.
I've been thinking that since the mission is so long it could end up being confusing in the long run to name the rl2 files with just their level number. Maybe a better system would be file names like sol2, brim3 , puma1, beta7, and etc.

Puuma 3 is now up there, and the others have followed.

Alter-Fox wrote:Alrighty...
I seem to be incapable of remembering the names I'm supposed to give these maps, but at least that's an easy change. It is populated, only to make it more palatable when I was testing. But you could use that as a starting point for where stuff can go, I guess. I did happen to fill this one with drones, medium lifters and pests so that fits with the name anyway. It's got an aesthetic closer to Descent Maximum than Descent 2 Counterstrike but it's a lot bigger. The only problem I've had with the map is sometimes guidebot thinks he's outside his cell when he's still in it, that's why right now there's a cell but no guidebot.

No worries. We'll weed out any eventual bugs when we get to the optimization phase. I've been thinking how to approach it recently, and I've concluded that it would be best to have take a look at the levels one at a time starting from level 1, once they are all done, and decide by commitee what could be improved/fixed and then just do it. That way we'll make sure there's adequate quality control.

I've been thinking that since the mission is so long it could end up being confusing in the long run to name the rl2 files with just their level number. Maybe a better system would be file names like sol2, brim3 , puma1, beta7, and etc.

Yeah, I get ya. But for the time being, that's what we have the folders for. They help us ensure we don't get tangled up. But of course, we'll do something like you said once the files are to be moved into a single HOG archive, maybe even earlier.

Puuma 3 is now up there, and the others have followed.

Ok, downloading. I'll make according updates to the OP in a while

Ok, impression time.

R'eeie: A beautiful Puuma level, it's obviously in. Very nice and creative use of forcefields in the main hub, great architecture and enough puzzles to keep one interested. I don't understand some instances of texture use though - particularly the blues. Parallax would never use blue in a Puuma level (not counting forcefields and earthshakers, haha). In Counterstrike levels we can put in some experimentation, especially with neutral textures, but we should keep to the theme coloristically. The blues gotta go.

Ceres: Superb level when it comes to the architecture, but what happened to the "D1-only resources for the Solar System portion" bit? This level looks totally like a Zeta Aquilae level, it extensively uses staple D2 textures, doors and switches. I actually thought you had intended this to be a Zeta Aquilae map if not for the fact that it's got the red fatty in it, which is the Ceres boss. I think this should go to a Zeta Aquilae slot, but those don't really have a boss level, so I don't know what to do. A Vertigo slot would also work actually, but again, not really for the bosses we have left. If this is to be the Ceres level, we'd have to retexture it and remove all switches and D2-style triggers from it.

As for Litter and L'aeev - I know those levels already obviously. They are of course of adequate quality and will be included in the mission, but they both need to be retextured slightly to match their designated places in the campaign.

I'll go to work on all the levels immediately, making appropriate changes, then I'll add them all to the listing. Thanks and great job

As far as Ceres goes, I built it for something that was never intended for a real release at all -- I had a few Descent levels in a mission for co-op with a couple friends but there was no boss. I wanted to let you see it before I went and changed all the textures to see if you'd have any other suggestions since it does use a whole lot of switches and D2-type secrets.
Cuz I didn't want to change every texture and robot and then have to go back and change them again.

Well it's clearly a very good level. I would love to see it in the mission, but I'm not sure Ceres is the right spot. I think it would work very well as a Vertigo level, then we wouldn't really have to make any changes to it. Except that then it would have to be a reactor level.

Ok, uploaded a version of R'eeie to Dropbox after greening up the blues. See if my texture choices it fit your fancy.

I've redone Litter Jungle to fit the D1 portion.
- switched to descent.pig
- used the template POG
- replaced textures with D1 equivalents while trying to maintain closest possible colors
- used one kind of door, the one from D1 levels 6, 7, 13
- removed some segments, all switches, openable walls and forcefields
- changed the flow of the level, replacing th switch unlocking the reactor door with an actual red key

Overall you might not recognize your level, AlterFox. While redoing it, I had to appreciate some of the textures D2 introduced. Especially lamented will be the lack of the universal grate (extraordinarily useful texture). But it and some other cool solutions had to be discarded to make the level conform. It's still fun to play and perfectly completable of course, but perhaps you could take a look at it and try and put in some more D1-style secrets? I had to remove quite a bit of secret content from the level as most were D2-type secrets (yet another thing D2 did so well it's hard to imagine having to do without it).

Due to the color scheme I decided to assign this level to slot 8, so it'll be a Uranian mine: Umbriel Tholin Mine. I removed the previous version from dropbox and put the current one into a newly made Level 8 folder.

EDIT: Actually scratch that - Neptune is a better choice, since Uranian levels are more leaning towards green.

Alright, I'll take a look in the next little while and see what I can whip up.
Very curious what you've done with it...

Problem -- my DLE crashes whenever it tries to open anything that uses your PIG.

Alter-Fox wrote:Alright, I'll take a look in the next little while and see what I can whip up.
Very curious what you've done with it...

Problem -- my DLE crashes whenever it tries to open anything that uses your PIG.

Download it and put it in your game's folder then, don't forget descent.256. That should stop it from crashing. Also make sure to get the latest version of DLE and it should all be fine. I think

Done all that the first time it didn't work. Didn't help for whatever reason.
Even if I just go into a map and try to change the PIG to that one it crashes.

I'd be much obliged if you could change the PIG back to GroupA until I'm done with it.

Alter-Fox wrote:Done all that the first time it didn't work. Didn't help for whatever reason.
Even if I just go into a map and try to change the PIG to that one it crashes.

I'd be much obliged if you could change the PIG back to GroupA until I'm done with it.

Well actually I don't think it would work very well, as the POG file would get irreversibly corrupted. Unless I took it out and reinserted it later. But then I'm not sure it wouldn't get into a conflict with the new stuff you add. Why this new PIG file doesn't work with your DLE version is beyond me. Did you try starting a new level and setting up the PIG as the default one, and opening your level only then?

Huh, that actually works.
Whaddaya know?

Alter-Fox wrote:Huh, that actually works.
Whaddaya know?

At your service

The DCA2 folder has got two more tracks (although I removed Pea Soup) but these are probably the last I'll be putting up there for a while. Since I got a much better guitar modeller these two are more like the Descent 1 and 2 redbook songs.
One of them uses a *real* water glass as an instrument too.

BTW, on Ktsch'k try shooting the monitor that's right there when you start the map. Also for that map I'm wondering if the roman numeral should really be the same as it was on Baloris Prime 1 in the original game. Could make it a reference to some other sci-fi franchise instead (MMI? ).
And I'm thinking of adding a trigger when you enter the actual reactor room on R'eeie that will reactivate all the forcefields in the big room so that you can't get around having to use the "elevator buttons" on your exit run. What do you think?
I updated Baloris 3 with some browner textures in the ring around the main room although I kept the actual center room grey.

Hey guys!

Sorry to have fallen off the face of the earth a bit. I kinda fell out of making maps again, but I think I've also neglected to finish the changes I was told to make for my levels. Since I'm also really really lazy, and there's a lot of content in this thread, what are the things I needed to change for Virus Research Lab and Sheltem? I feel like I fixed Sheltem's issues, but I don't think I ever did the ones for the Virus lab.

Thanks guys. Hope all is going well!

Incidentally, X, I've come up with a simple Descent mirror-universe plot that's got a couple of small twists without trying to do much more than the original games.
Suffice it to say that in this universe PTMC is even worse than in the main one.

Alter-Fox wrote: BTW, on Ktsch'k try shooting the monitor that's right there when you start the map. Also for that map I'm wondering if the roman numeral should really be the same as it was on Baloris Prime 1 in the original game. Could make it a reference to some other sci-fi franchise instead (MMI? ).

Might and Magic is a wonderful franchise, I'm a huge fan (well, before Ubisoft bought it, anyway), so yes, feel free

And I'm thinking of adding a trigger when you enter the actual reactor room on R'eeie that will reactivate all the forcefields in the big room so that you can't get around having to use the "elevator buttons" on your exit run. What do you think?

I didn't think you could get around using them anyway... but yeah, I think you're quite right, I don't remember having to when exiting the mine. I think it's a good idea.

I updated Baloris 3 with some browner textures in the ring around the main room although I kept the actual center room grey.

Thanks! I intended to replace the blue floors with something brown myself, good thing you saved me the trouble

Kaizerwolf wrote:Hey guys!

Sorry to have fallen off the face of the earth a bit. I kinda fell out of making maps again, but I think I've also neglected to finish the changes I was told to make for my levels. Since I'm also really really lazy, and there's a lot of content in this thread, what are the things I needed to change for Virus Research Lab and Sheltem? I feel like I fixed Sheltem's issues, but I don't think I ever did the ones for the Virus lab.

Thanks guys. Hope all is going well!

Don't worry about that now. Of course you can try out some ideas, but we'll get to the alpha testing phase with each mine once all of them are done, then we'll compile ideas and try to make all of them better. For now it's no biggie - one or two more levels from you wouldn't hurt at all

I was thinking MMI as in the roman numeral 2001 (as in, 2001 A Space Odyssey). But hey, if it means different things to different people that's all the better.
And yah, as it stands right now it is possible to "press" the elevator buttons before you go into the reactor room so that you don't need to do it on your exit run.

EDIT: R'eeie's updated with the new triggers and a slight change to one of the ambushes. I also changed the green texture you used to replace the blue ones to one that's a little more "puuma-ish" instead of quartzon-ish.
Worth mentioning that the puuma sphere mines in D2 did have some straight-out blue textures, especially the second one (in the huge Lou Guard room where the red door was).

Alter-Fox wrote:I was thinking MMI as in the roman numeral 2001 (as in, 2001 A Space Odyssey). But hey, if it means different things to different people that's all the better.
And yah, as it stands right now it is possible to "press" the elevator buttons before you go into the reactor room so that you don't need to do it on your exit run.

Oh. How come I didn't get that reference, hahaha

EDIT: R'eeie's updated with the new triggers and a slight change to one of the ambushes. I also changed the green texture you used to replace the blue ones to one that's a little more "puuma-ish" instead of quartzon-ish.
Worth mentioning that the puuma sphere mines in D2 did have some straight-out blue textures, especially the second one (in the huge Lou Guard room where the red door was).

I'll play through the level again out of curiosity
As for the "quartzon greens", I thought using them was alright since you said the level had a Maximum atmosphere, and that level pack did use those textures sometimes. I'm talking about the dark green - the regular D1 greens weren't used there, that's for sure.

EDIT: I played through level 22 of Counterstrike and couldn't see a blue texture of any kind anywhere in the room you described.

I did some little tweaks to Baloris 3 right now - removed all the remaining instances of the blue floor texture (the editor says it's still used somewhere but I can't see where. Could someone remind me how to skip to texture instances again?) and the dark green porous texture, replaced these with the modern-looking grayish-green texture present in most systems. I also replaced the multiplayer goal texture marking the blue key location with a more standard blue wall taken from the D1 texture roster and did some alignment work here and there.

Huh... it's, like, the only texture in that room.
/me checks editor

Looks like the Alien2 palette adds a lot of green into it even though it was used on Quartzon for blue. There's still the blue floors in my map though. Personally I like it when the exit tunnel's textures look a little bit different from the rest of the mine.
I changed that green texture 'cause I'd already thought of going with it in those places, but I decided the more earthy-looking green would clash with the alien-looking green I'd already decided on for everywhere else. The whole place is meant to look cold and creepy and hostile. No room for warm greens.

On Baloris 3, the editor's still showing that blue as a used texture but I think it's making a mistake because I specifically remember not using it anywhere else.

Xfing wrote:one or two more levels from you wouldn't hurt at all

I'll see what I can do! School kinda took over, so I stopped building, but I've got some ideas.

I haven't been able to catch DravisBlack or PygmyRhino. Could someone check on them?

Hi xfing! I'm still here! and still working on your levels. Pop into the Descent Rangers mumble sometime. Im almost always online!

PigmyRhino wrote:Hi xfing! I'm still here! and still working on your levels. Pop into the Descent Rangers mumble sometime. Im almost always online!

I think I've tried several times already but could never catch you, you were playing a match probably. Tough luck for me!

Just fixed some weirdly stretched textures on Puuma 3.

Alter-Fox wrote:Just fixed some weirdly stretched textures on Puuma 3.

And I saw you replace Litter Jungle just now too! Sweet, gonna check.

EDIT: Ok, I've checked the new version of the level and the new secret areas are simple but elegant, the geometry is quite intricate too. Good job. As for these two secret doors on the sides on the way to the blue key - I did think of putting them there actually, but it would tempt me to use a texture matching the doors instead of the white one to make the doors more hidden, while I was rather adamant that the walls be white. Anyway, you did put those doors in after all, but it's fine. Descent 1 was notorious for a rather curious choice of secret doors.

Ah ok, Well the layouts are almost done, Will post when I have something that flows!

PigmyRhino wrote:Ah ok, Well the layouts are almost done, Will post when I have something that flows!

Thanks a lot! Keep up the good work and take your time.

Hello.
I'm working on a level (possibly for vertigo - not sure if I'm gonna upload it tho).
I mainly wanted you to know that I'm still alive.

Well, I'm just sitting back right now, waiting for some other submissions. I'll definitely do a level or two more at the very least, might be forced to do more in the future but I'm counting on the community.

Sirius, have you taken a shot at Glacierspire already?

Alter-Fox wrote:The only problem I've had with the map is sometimes guidebot thinks he's outside his cell...

Make sure the cell is only one cube, and the grate holding him in is the only wall on the cell. (Learned from experience)

Xfing wrote:Sirius, have you taken a shot at Glacierspire already?

I've... got a room underway...
I had some concept sketches as well, actually. I probably need to dedicate a second weeknight to this stuff to turn it into anything... have a rework of a multiplayer level still on the "to-do" list, as well as figuring out why Rebirth crashes on a second one.

It being the last day of 2015, I got a sudden urge to get into Descent stuff a bit more and so I worked a little bit on two levels of mine.

I made a correction to level 47 - removed that boring corridor as per suggestion and replaced it with something better. That area looks a bit sloppy though, so I'll probably take another shot at it tomorrow to make it geometrically perfect instead of... the way it is now.

Also fixed a grate door opening in an illogical direction in level 33, which I noticed while running through the level today.

Happy New Year everyone!

EDIT: And I did what I said I would with that area in level 47 - now it's geometrically much better and I also threw in a rather interesting secret room to boot, bringing the total number of cubes to 899. Haha. If we're ever gonna try and put in more secrets into the boss room, I suppose we'll have to lower the cube amount a bit - I admit, the usage isn't very economical in some places. But oh well, check out the level now and tell me what you think.

I would like to take a few levels! At least to just make myself start working on level editing again.

I don't want to take too many in a row though, and my style of levels really fits the Vertigo "anything goes" theme. But I'd love to take Level 48, Beta Ceti 12, and I'll come up with a name sometime.

I'd also love to do Level 29, Limefrost Spiral 2: Salt Distillation Facility. I assume this is an ice theme but with some metal stuff thrown in?

Thanks!
-Kw

Kaizerwolf wrote:I would like to take a few levels! At least to just make myself start working on level editing again.

I don't want to take too many in a row though, and my style of levels really fits the Vertigo "anything goes" theme. But I'd love to take Level 48, Beta Ceti 12, and I'll come up with a name sometime.

Ok, marking you there When deciding a texture theme, think what this mission lacks thus far in terms of theme or color. We want it to be diverse. Let me know your mail address if I haven't yet hooked you up to he Dropbox directory where we keep the files so you can download and play the levels we've got thus far.

I'd also love to do Level 29, Limefrost Spiral 2: Salt Distillation Facility. I assume this is an ice theme but with some metal stuff thrown in?

Thanks!
-Kw

Well, to be honest the levels from the Counterstrike systems should be quite conservative in terms of theme, that is they shouldn't really stray out of the primary theme of the system. The ice levels are entirely ice. I know that's kinda boring and of course you can mix stuff up with "neutral" textures like the ubiquitous gray etc. Thing is, with this mission pack the concept is to use a bit more Descent 1 textures than Parallax did for Counterstrike. They probably wanted to make Descent 2 as different from D1 as possible to warrant people buying both games and therefore wanted to showcase primarily the new textures - we don't have such limitations, so we can use whatever we like, and I feel we should as it makes things more interesting. In fact, I think you could use quite a bit of the white "lab" textures in this level, they really help with the "processing facility" factor. Plus, Parallax used them a bit in level 16 of Counterstrike and they fit quite well.