DescentBB

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:36 am**

MD-1118, your reactions to the Bible seem based more on knee-jerk reaction than any actual study or knowledge on the subject.

It was translated multiple times to and from several different languages - I find it hard to believe that nothing of great import was lost throughout the years.

There are thousands of manuscripts from the second and third centuries, and even some from the first, if I remember right. What few textual changes there have been are easily traced through the manuscript record, and nothing of theological importance is in question. We can have a much better idea of what the New Testament says than pretty much any other ancient document.

There's no \"hard evidence\" for the vast majority of events in history; they aren't observable, and we're reliant on historical records. Fortunately, the New Testament's evolution is well-documented and the best source of information on the life of Christ and other elements of Christianity, and many historical facts can effectively be established without accepting the theological conclusion (for example, Jesus' crucifixion, Paul's conversion, etc.)

If you're honest, you'll admit that and say that you believe because it's all you can do (and all you want to do).

No. In fact, I find Christianity a challenging and difficult religion to follow. It would be much easier for me to just become an agnostic and \"eat, drink, and be merry.\" The existence of an afterlife doesn't make me lean either way - if there isn't one, I'm not going to exist anymore to cognizant and miserable over non-existence, so who cares? I am convicted in the truth of my beliefs and follow them *despite* the difficulty (and even the possibility of future persecution) they may present.

What Drakona is proposing is not God creating an opponent \"for himself,\" but for *us*, so that we can overcome evil. However, since Independent Baptists can be pretty darn crazy sometimes, I don't find it very surprising that you would be driven away from Christianity.

Jeff, I think that your objection over the nature of good in heaven is a valid one. If I had to take a shot at this, I'd say that this world is a \"proving grounds\" for us, so to speak, and that one of the chief reasons we are placed here rather than directly in heaven is so that we can exercise free will. Christians have made a conscious, free decision to accept God's gift of salvation, so in heaven they are \"locked\" into perfect behavior because in their time on earth, they freely chose salvation.

If God had just placed all of us in an evil-less dream world we'd be little more than automatons programmed to serve God; apparently not what he wanted, at least in the Judeo-Christian view. God does *eventually* allow us to be free from the influence of sin in heaven, but allows us, in our time on earth, to decide whether or not we will follow him. It seems like a perfectly reasonable approach to me.

God can't do anything wrong; righteousness is whatever he defines it to be. That's my answer to the so-called Euthyphro dilemma. It's especially obvious when you look at the Ten Commandments, for example - God can't covet his neighbor's possessions or have any gods above himself, among others!

Sure, God could have been a brutal madman who created a world full of suffering and torment that makes the worst human atrocities seem paltry in comparison, but the Christian God's actions are defined by His nature. Nobody argues that the physical constants governing the universe don't exist because if they were different, we couldn't exist! In the same way, it seems pretty pointless to complain \"what if God was evil (by our definition)??\" when it's strictly the real world (and real conception of God) we should be dealing with, not theoretical \"other-gods.\"

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:21 pm**

Firewheel wrote:If I had to take a shot at this...

My objection concerning the nature of good in heaven is really for Drakona's proposed solution to the problem of evil. If you don't think that an existence without evil precludes most virtues (and that an existence with these virtues is really important), then you won't be vulnerable to it. Although I reserve the right to come up with a variation in the future that you may be vulnerable to...

Firewheel wrote:If God had just placed all of us in an evil-less dream world we'd be little more than automatons programmed to serve God; apparently not what he wanted, at least in the Judeo-Christian view. God does *eventually* allow us to be free from the influence of sin in heaven, but allows us, in our time on earth, to decide whether or not we will follow him. It seems like a perfectly reasonable approach to me.

Here is my response to your proposed solution: putting us in a better world would *not* entail us being automatons programmed to serve God. We could remove disease and natural disaster from the world without affecting anyone's autonomy. So I reject that God putting us in a better world would entail that we would all be automatons programmed to serve God. It's simply not true. So you still need another argument.

As an aside, this world seems poorly designed to give humans a choice as to whether or not they will follow God. A large portion (perhaps most) humans that have breathed air on this planet have not even been given information about this choice to follow God, i.e. they have never heard of God. And of the ones that have been given information about the choice but choose not to follow God, most choose to not follow God because they don't think God exists, not because they would otherwise have qualms about following him. However, it seems to me that God would be more interested in whether people would serve him when given all the information. But as it turns out, most choose not to follow God due to what would be a factual disagreement, i.e. "God does not exist," not an ethical disagreement, i.e. "God should not be followed." Ironically, it is only after receiving all of the information (i.e. when in hell) that one is no longer allowed to make the decision! But if one of God's purposes for this world is to see who would choose to follow him, it would seem to me to be fairly low on the list of priorities.

Firewheel wrote:God can't do anything wrong; righteousness is whatever he defines it to be. That's my answer to the so-called Euthyphro dilemma. It's especially obvious when you look at the Ten Commandments, for example - God can't covet his neighbor's possessions or have any gods above himself, among others!

Sure, God could have been a brutal madman who created a world full of suffering and torment that makes the worst human atrocities seem paltry in comparison, but the Christian God's actions are defined by His nature. Nobody argues that the physical constants governing the universe don't exist because if they were different, we couldn't exist! In the same way, it seems pretty pointless to complain "what if God was evil (by our definition)??" when it's strictly the real world (and real conception of God) we should be dealing with, not theoretical "other-gods."

Is this supposed to be an independent solution to the problem of evil to the above or somehow a complement to it? In any case, when people do that, they are not complaining--they are making a reductio ad absurdum argument. If we accept the principle that whatever God does is the definition of good, then if God murders, then murder is good. The hope here is that you would find this absurd and then be forced to reject the principle that we initially assumed that led to this absurdity--that whatever God does is the definition of good.

My response to your argument in general is the same one I explained in my last post. You have restored God's status as good by describing goodness as something so powerless and impotent that of course God would have it. You've turned an otherwise meaningful praise like, "God is good," into a meaningless tautology: "God does what he does." A solution to the problem of evil must not only justify a statement like "God is all-good" but also retain its meaningfulness and importance.

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:58 pm**

God is not “all-good” God does not lead by example, God says do as I say, not as I do. (God of Abraham) And this world is just fine, it’s the people that are screwing it up…if you want a better world to live in, create it, and stop whining.

You have a choice…good or evil, that’s the only way this world is ever going to change. You have the power to give one or the other strength, or take it away.

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:20 pm**

Jeff, your post is nothing short of brilliant. I saved the entire thread because I think this is the most interesting one I've ever seen on this board. Those are great arguments and they are well delivered.

Spidey wrote:God is not “all-good” God does not lead by example, God says do as I say, not as I do. (God of Abraham) And this world is just fine, it’s the people that are screwing it up…if you want a better world to live in, create it, and stop whining.

You have a choice…good or evil, that’s the only way this world is ever going to change. You have the power to give one or the other strength, or take it away.

Spidey... you're talking about Lothar's God. The God that isn't a "care bear".

So, using your example of good or evil, what happens to those of us who choose to be good in every way but simply do not believe that a God exists?

Bee

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:35 pm**

I can’t say what will happen to you, but I can say, that for the most part you will make the world a better place.

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:09 am**

Bet wrote:Jeff, your post is nothing short of brilliant. I saved the entire thread because I think this is the most interesting one I've ever seen on this board. Those are great arguments and they are well delivered.

Thanks, but do not underestimate Drakona, Firewheel, or anyone else who might jump in. I know from experience that they can deliver all too effective counterarguments. But they do have a disadvantage here in that they are wrong.

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:03 am**

Because without evil there is no choice

unity in duality

someone just wrote a fictional book claiming it as the word of god

so Choice is Evil

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:36 pm**

Spidey wrote:I can’t say what will happen to you, but I can say, that for the most part you will make the world a better place.

Thank you.

Jeff250 wrote:
Bet wrote:Jeff, your post is nothing short of brilliant. I saved the entire thread because I think this is the most interesting one I've ever seen on this board. Those are great arguments and they are well delivered.
Thanks, but do not underestimate Drakona, Firewheel, or anyone else who might jump in. I know from experience that they can deliver all too effective counterarguments. But they do have a disadvantage here in that they are wrong.

Usually they make an appearance, quote scripture until the tough questions get asked, then leave. At least that's what's happened in the last few posts...

Bee

Posted: **Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:27 pm**

Heh, nice pic Bubbalou. I've got it floating around somewhere myself. Just thought I'd say something quickly here:

Duality is unity, because without duality there can be no unity. Conversely, without unity there can be no duality. Simply put, everything is nothing, nothing is everything and the line between reality and surreality is nonexistent. It's all the same. If nothing is impossible, then everything is possible, and in a universe of infinite possibility, everything exists at some point or another. In other words, everything has happened, is happening or will happen. It doesn't matter if it makes sense, because sense is irrelevant. Everything is irrelevant, because it's all equally important.

In summation, if anything were any different, this world wouldn't be the same. Everything happens for a reason, and that reason is because it can. We don't have to explain it because it doesn't have to have an explanation we like or understand. I'm positive that at some point, there was/is/will be a God, but that's irrelevant. It all is.

Posted: **Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:44 pm**

On the day of judgment, God will surely scold us in these terms: \"Since you saw that on earth all is vicious and criminal, why did lose yourself in virtue ? The perpetual disasters which I, God, have imposed upon the universe, how could they fail to convince you that I love only disorder ? Every day I supplied you with examples of destruction, so why did you not destroy ? Imbeciles ! Why did you not imitate me ?\"

Posted: **Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:36 pm**

glad someone understands duality

we just need for people to drop the moniker \"religion\" as a name and replace it with the correct term \"philosophy\",, the world would be a much better place

Posted: **Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:34 pm**

I'm not sure that God exists... I accepted the fact I'm smart animal and just another toy in hands of evolution. Life has no sense or purpose. We are going to die sooner or later, so why think about evil, God and similar things?

Posted: **Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:31 pm**

Dravis wrote:I'm not sure that God exists... I accepted the fact I'm smart animal and just another toy in hands of evolution. Life has no sense or purpose. We are going to die sooner or later, so why think about evil, God and similar things?

Your right that in the grand scheme of things your life is absolutely pointless but in your present time your life has sense and purpose for those you touch on a personal level.

Bee

Posted: **Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:34 pm**

This whole topic presupposes the existence of God. That he exists and must be an $@$ to allow us to be selfish and dishonorable. God allows evil because we allow it and he put us in charge. Not to be unruly children without a clue, but to rule over creation. The mere fact that he hasn't wiped us all out yet and started over shows that besides being Holy (which just means separate

he is also merciful. God allows evil because he has a plan. One that will be brought to pass. I don't think he is fretting at all. The main reason there is so much evil in the world, is because our own conscience prevent us from making a stand. I stand guilty and charged. Anybody know a good lawyer

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:51 pm**

I like how the hard core just roll over everything but their own....

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:36 pm**

flip wrote:This whole topic presupposes the existence of God.

Okay, let's say that God exists. And what then? There is no change for me. I'll die no matter that God exists or not. Death will be reality even in the perfect world without evil, wars, poverty etc. I don't know anything for a fact... The only sure thing is I have 27 years left until the end of my life, and that was the best case scenario. In my opinion, this is pointless discussion...

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:13 pm**

I had thought of this question when I was young, and unsure if a god, of any kind, existed. Going from observation of the world, I thought this was a pretty easy question. Supposing such a thing exists, there are one of two answers, based off the answer to \" Is god unwilling or unable?\" (He won't say, obviously)

Unable; God is not paying attention to the world, or does not interfere in the events of the world. Perhaps can not interfere. Or doesn't care, the suffering on the planet is inconsequential to getting in heaven anyway. The latter is kinda improbable, though, when little Jimmy takes 5 years to die screaming in pain from cancer before the age of 10. I can't imagine anyone with supposedly such great compassion turning a blind eye to that.

or

Unwilling; God is good and evil. Love thy neighbor, yes, and the Bible also directly attributes over two million dead (women, children, infants, the unborn) to him. I don't know if that includes the flood fable or not. Maybe he gets off on little Jimmy taking 5 years to die screaming in pain from cancer before the age of 10. He certainly doesn't do anything about it.

My original answer was that he is unwilling. From the Bible's perspective, he was more than capable of interfering.

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:16 pm**

Yes you will die as all others since Adam will die. The promise though, is that you will be raised again. Incorruptible and to live eternally. Is this true? I sure hope so. Sounds good anyways. In my opinion, it's definitely worth investigation. May be that it's all a crock but I know that it's not. I'll give you more. I started out with blind faith. Over time though, I've seen evidence.

Let me tell you just one story. I got up one morning. I was about 16-17 and had been on my own since I was 15. I woke up and was getting ready for work. At the time I was very serious about pleasing God. As I was making breakfast, I remembered I did'nt have any dog food for my pup. As I thought of this, the verse \" Cast all your cares upon him for he careth for you\" came to my mind so i forgot about it and no worries again. Well at the end of that day, when I came home from work, there was 16 cans of dog food and a bag of dog food on my porch!

I had told no one. In fact, I didnt really even care. It wasnt like I couldn't buy some dog food when I got home. LOL at the time I was excited. But later, as I grew older, i wondered about that. I questioned God. I asked: \"Why\". There are people dieing of cancer, aids all kinds of dis ease

. Why do that? This is what I heard:

If you keep the things of mine on your mind, I will keep the things of yours on mine. Even that stupid little dog. So many of those kind of experiences and I'm convinced. Give me a break =/ Do you really think it's all just an accident? How hopeless that must feel.

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:23 pm**

And many, many other dogs, who are just as deserving, die of starvation every day. Your story is in the far minority. Shouldn't the ratio be reversed?

Obviously, some nice person cared, and helped. That's why it was on your porch. If it was a god, the food would be in your house, on your table eh? With the bowl full of food. God can't get past locked doors?

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:29 pm**

I never said I deserved anything. I think the difference is faith. The bible says \"without faith it is impossible to please God\". Maybe the reason you_they don't get is because you_they don't ask.

Also, how did they know? I'm not going to argue with you. More than likely someone did put that on my porch. How did they know to do it?

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:36 pm**

flip wrote:Yes you will die as all others since Adam will die. The promise though, is that you will be raised again. Incorruptible and to live eternally.

What if I commit suicide? Will I be raised then? There's nothing regarding this question in the entire Bible...

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:38 pm**

Don't know, wasn't there. People have helped me before without a word from me. They observed, or caught clues, and were nice, helpful people. Personally, I've done the same thing as someone did for you. I don't like taking credit for doing things for others, and I would not want to embarrass the person, so I did not reveal I did it either.

People are surprising, both good and bad.

Simply having faith is not a good answer. There are dumploads of people with more faith than you, and their dog dies. I don't have any faith, yet I'm better off than almost all the Christians I know. Weird, eh?

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:53 pm**

Testiculese wrote:And the neighbor's dog, who was just as deserving, died of starvation.

That statement says a lot.

NONE of us are "deserving", not you, not me, not the neighbor's dog, and that's the TRUTH. Blaming God, or trying to explain away His non-existance based on what He SHOULD do because of those that are deserving misses the mark completely.

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:54 pm**

Dravis. Committing suicide would seem to me to be the exact opposite of faith. Since the only way we can please God is through faith, I would expect anyone that commits suicide to receive nothing.

Testi: If that was the only time that had happened, I may agree with you. I have many more stories just like that one. Heres another.

I had about 12 warts on my hand as a child. They had been there for years. it's supposedly a viral infection you are born with. One day, again not really caring, I had had them for years, I nonchalantly said \" I wish you would do something about these\" and forgot it. Honestly I can't tell you when they disappeared. They had been there forever and I paid them little attention. Within 2 weeks I had none and have never had another since. 3 of my kids on the other hand, all have them. Like I said before. it has always worked for me so I'm convinced.

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:14 pm**

If you are going to be reborn again incorruptible in god, than what’s the point of this miserable life.

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:22 pm**

Thats a question only you can answer Spidey.

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:37 pm**

Dravis wrote:What if I commit suicide? Will I be raised then? There's nothing regarding this question in the entire Bible...

Even breaking that commandment will still get you into heaven...IF... you believed beforehand that Jesus Christ was the son of God and is your saviour.

Testiculese wrote:I don't have any faith, yet I'm better off than almost all the Christians I know. Weird, eh?

Not at all...

Bee

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:37 pm**

What does it mean to believe in Jesus Christ? Whoever you get that from has over-simplified it to the point where it's lost all its meaning. Yours is a flawed scenario. If you're unchanged to the point that you will do something as cowardly and harmful as commit suicide, then how have you really believed in Jesus Christ? The Bible says "even the demons believe, and tremble." The entire New Testament shows clearly that there is a great deal more to believing in Jesus Christ than a mental credence. This is not magic.

Galatians 6:7 wrote:Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

I don't know a particular man's heart when he goes to commit suicide, but as far as I'm concerned he's lost. He was deceived by the Devil into giving up the struggle in a final cowardly act. "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: ..." (Heb 9:27) "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, ... shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev 21:8)

That's not something to take lightly, Bettina. Maybe you don't believe that. Maybe you're just repeating what you learned about it in your church, but your church's teaching are in disagreement with the scriptures themselves. Did you realize that?

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:41 pm**

flip wrote:Thats a question only you can answer Spidey.

No, that’s a question only someone who believes can answer.

I don’t believe in that kind of eternal life, so I’m not qualified to answer that question in that form.

You missed the point anyway.

In other words, if we are going to live an eternal life with god, than just skip the misery part.

EDIT: btw, I have considered suicide, and let me tell you, if I had done it, it would have taken a lot of guts, because that’s the only thing that stopped me. That cowardly BS is a lot of nonsense.

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:05 pm**

All I can say for sure is this: It works for me. I ask I receive. Never once have I been denied. You wanna know the secret? You have to believe first.

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:17 pm**

I \"was\" a believer, once...

I’m glad it works for you, doesn’t for everyone tho.

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:37 pm**

Believe me when I say this : Nothing special about me. I just trust HIM, even when it looks bad.

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:44 pm**

I'm young, and I suppose I could be wrong, but what's cowardly if not throwing in the towel altogether? I've always thought of it as such. I've heard it referred to as both a cowardly, and a selfish act. I know that the finality of it is scary. I've been there. You're scared because you know better. You know that that's it. It's facing your problems that takes guts. Facing the things in life that hurt and are difficult or unfair. Killing yourself takes a certain degree of disregard for your own life. Anyone can be deluded into that. That's not guts. It takes guts to do something you know you should do, but are afraid to do it. That's guts. Anything else is just delusion.

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:59 pm**

I’m not talking about thinking about killing yourself, because you had a bad day at work, or someone cut you off on your way home or your girlfriend left you, I talking about being so close to the act, that you ★■◆● your pants! (literally)

Also, there are many reasons for contemplating suicide, you may want to hurt the people in your life, you may be calling out for help, or you may be trying to end suffering, pain & misery. And it may be true that some people kill themselves as a cowards way out of life, but I’m betting there aren’t many, and to assume that’s a persons reason is very judgmental, and prolly wrong.

So if you havent been to the brink, you should prolly not make comments like “it’s cowardly”

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:25 pm**

OK yeah Killing yourself would take balls. Whatever. It's still a hopeless act. Please just make it stop act.

Rather I say this. Bring it on. i can survive anything for the next 30 years. So, yes in that sense, it is weak. How does that help anyone ?

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:34 am**

Bet51987 wrote:Even breaking that commandment will still get you into heaven...IF... you believed beforehand that Jesus Christ was the son of God and is your saviour.

flip wrote:Dravis. Committing suicide would seem to me to be the exact opposite of faith. Since the only way we can please God is through faith, I would expect anyone that commits suicide to receive nothing.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:I don't know a particular man's heart when he goes to commit suicide, but as far as I'm concerned he's lost. He was deceived by the Devil into giving up the struggle in a final cowardly act.

Hmm, I see a lot of contradicting answers... What about samurai tradition? They comitted suicide in peace and meditation. In most cases they weren't motivated by fear or despair... It's better to die with honor rather than fall into the hands of enemies. And I will rather take my own life than getting old, ugly & sick... God is really cruel if I must die slowly and painfully in order to get eternal life. No, I won't let it happen. I'll die really fast. This life sucks anyway.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:16 am**

Dravis wrote:God is really cruel if I must die slowly and painfully in order to get eternal life.

Spoken like a fool.

Many Christians throughout history have been persecuted and killed to obtain salvation. The Bible doesn't paint a rosy picture. Jesus warned that if we follow him we will be treated as he was treated. Hated, persecuted, even killed, as Christians are to this day. But you sit there, insisting that God is cruel because of the suffering we must endure to escape eternal suffering--our sentence since the fall of man. The Bible says that the penalty for sin (lawlessness/disobedience) is death. Adam and Eve had a free will. The Bible says that sin entered the world through them, and death through sin. It's our doing.

I've never really taken a position on suicide, other than to believe that it's wrong. I do believe I could build an argument from the Bible, though, even though it is not directly addressed, to my knowledge. Even aside from that, what if Jesus had committed suicide? Jesus took his suffering patiently, trusting in God as the ultimate authority, and we are called to follow his example.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:16 pm**

Sergeant Thorne wrote:But you sit there, insisting that God is cruel because of the suffering we must endure to escape eternal suffering--our sentence since the fall of man.

Eternal suffering? Is that hell? Please explain...

I have the following understanding: When I commit suicide, I'll obivously die. And as we all know, death is "salary" (I don't know proper phrase) for sins. When I die, I'll pay for all my sins.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:59 pm**

No disrespect meant, but did you stop reading half-way? Or if your notion that the penalty for sin is death does not come from the Bible, where does it come from?

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:11 pm**

Sergeant Thorne wrote:No disrespect meant, but did you stop reading half-way?

No, but I still can't get your point... Please use simple language.

Or if your notion that the penalty for sin is death does not come from the Bible, where does it come from?

Romans 6,23: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life..."

When I die, my all sins will be "erased".

DescentBB

Why does God allow Evil?

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