DescentBB

callmeslick wrote:

woodchip wrote:Small business do not typically move elsewhere and small business is what employs 80% of the work force

but small business doesn't generally provide very good income except for the ownership, and is notorious for not paying medical or other benefits.
.

In 2010 small business was adding an average of 68,500 new jobs per month. In the same year large corporations were eliminating 3400 jobs per month.

This year, as of April, small business added 188,000 new jobs per month. at the same time large corporations only added 11,300 per month.
source

I think your perception of the importance of small businesses is really skewed. In terms of economic recovery small business is vital and anything the administration does to hurt that sector is going to trickle up and hurt everyone, it will even reach you and your early retirement.

Big business and small business are in a mutual need relationship in this country, don’t believe for a minute anybody that tries to tell you differently.

And I remember a study a few years back that said, small business could replace big business, much more easly than the other way around. Except in a few examples, such as the oil industry, where economy of scale is very important.

Remember small & craft business came first, I think that speaks volumes…

callmeslick wrote:

but small business doesn't generally provide very good income except for the ownership, and is notorious for not paying medical or other benefits.
.

And your plan is to put them on welfare?[/quote]

callmeslick wrote: No, I am merely questioning that old chestnut about the essential value of 'Small Business'. Virtually NO small businesses in this nation would survive to the point of providing squat for employment were it not for the larger corporations. Most small businesses either service larger corporations, or the higher paid employees of same, or for the relative handful of innovative start-ups, get coopted by large corporate types as soon as sizeable capital is needed. Why is it that we always hear that mantra that 'Small Business is the key to a successful US economy'? That statement is a load of crap and always has been. Small business success merely reflects a robust major industry/large corporation modern economy.

With the new unemployment figures in we have now jumped up to 9.2%. So I ask you again, is welfare the alternative? Is the 9.2% unemployment the "New Normal" as some of the wags on the left are trying to get us accustomed to? You still have not answered my question. What would you replace small business's with? While you seem to label SB's as being irrelevant, is your choice one where big business hires everyone? Or do you envision big govt. as replacing SB ? Do you think big business is going to pay their helpers any more than small business?

That's the problem with the rich. Half of them say"piss on them, their peasants." The other half are sympathizers and want to treat us like pets, you know, at least "feed and clothe them." NONE of them will give up their station now, they just argue as to how the common folk should be looked after in this new and exciting world they engineered. It is and always has been the rich who defraud the masses.

Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you, cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.

See, this has been known about for a long time.

"and I feel fine"

flip wrote:That's the problem with the rich. Half of them say"piss on them, their peasants." The other half are sympathizers and want to treat us like pets, you know, at least "feed and clothe them." NONE of them will give up their station now, they just argue as to how the common folk should be looked after in this new and exciting world they engineered. It is and always has been the rich who defraud the masses.

Ya know Flip that is an EXCELLENT analogy. fortunately for Me, I'm neither a Peasant nor a Pet.

Small businesses are more important than large businesses if only because small businesses more often than not actually pay their taxes and don't casually break the law because they can afford it with their economy of scale. In other words: small businesses are more economically useful simply because they have to obey the rules.

Large businesses avoid paying taxes by listing only their liabilities on the tax roll while keeping all their revenue and profit in a P.O. Box in Iceland, and they flagrantly violate anti-trust laws because it is more profitable to write off the fines than to actually compete honestly.

Small businesses work to meet the needs of the public, while more often than not the public is worked to meet the needs of large businesses.

And small businesses are more likely to hire from and support their local community, unlike big, multinational corporations, who bow only to their bottom line and have no national pride or allegiance.

We are heirs

[ Post made via Android ]

Will Robinson wrote:[I think your perception of the importance of small businesses is really skewed. In terms of economic recovery small business is vital and anything the administration does to hurt that sector is going to trickle up and hurt everyone, it will even reach you and your early retirement.

well, nothing there comes close to addressing my point. Small business depends, critically, or robust BIG businesses. Plus, there is very little government can do to stimulate small business short term. Frankly, there is very little government can do short term to affect the economy at all. All government controls is hiring of government employees. What government can, and to my mind, should do, is make for long term conditions that are favorable to the national economy.

I'm astounded how many folks thought that recovery from this downturn would bring job levels back to the old status quo. That will NEVER, EVER happen unless and until the nation creates large scale new technologies or opens large new markets for existing production. If we rebound, even to pre-slump levels of domestic demand and all, we simply have seen businesses become more efficient and thus not need the people to do the needed work that they did even 5 years ago. Couple that with a workforce that keeps getting young people joining, while many older workers have to stay employed and you get what you have seen: an anemic employment situation for a LOT of people. Neither party, no one, is going to change that fact quickly. We couldn't afford the scale of government stimulus to tide you over, and too few are willing to gamble on the scale of research and infrastructure investment to lay the groundwork down the road.

Thus, are we fecked.

hopefully, the above address where I see the reality, Woodchip.

As to the rest of you, such adorable, sentimental thoughts around small business. Welcome to the 21st
century. Most of you sound as unrealistic in your view of a functional economy as the average Progressive
liberal does when talking about the evils of the Corporate Takeover. A lot of common ground there, you should check it out. Mind you, it avoids the reality of post-industrial development in a Global Economy, but
you all will figure it out someday. Hope not too late.......

Slick, that's bull★■◆● and self-serving. Lemme tell you a secret too. The reason nobody figured it out before it was too late, is because it was concealed. Your idea of America is where we all work for Walmart, and that was exactly what Woodrow Wilson proclaimed at the end of his term. The reason things are like they are, is because people like the Rockefeller's, Ford's and Carnegies ...etc got in on the deal when the deal was made, and then gently turned everything to their persuasion. This is not normal evolution or growth, it's exactly what Woodrow Wilson called it.

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

callmeslick wrote:well, nothing there comes close to addressing my point. Small business depends, critically, or robust BIG businesses. Plus, there is very little government can do to stimulate small business short term. Frankly, there is very little government can do short term to affect the economy at all. All government controls is hiring of government employees. What government can, and to my mind, should do, is make for long term conditions that are favorable to the national economy.

I'm astounded how many folks thought that recovery from this downturn would bring job levels back to the old status quo. That will NEVER, EVER happen unless and until the nation creates large scale new technologies or opens large new markets for existing production. If we rebound, even to pre-slump levels of domestic demand and all, we simply have seen businesses become more efficient and thus not need the people to do the needed work that they did even 5 years ago. Couple that with a workforce that keeps getting young people joining, while many older workers have to stay employed and you get what you have seen: an anemic employment situation for a LOT of people. Neither party, no one, is going to change that fact quickly. We couldn't afford the scale of government stimulus to tide you over, and too few are willing to gamble on the scale of research and infrastructure investment to lay the groundwork down the road.

Thus, are we fecked.

You're right about small business needing big business. That's the fallacy behind all these politicians saying we need to cut taxes to stimulate small business. Yeah, like that's going to solve our problems. And giving more tax breaks to big corporations, who are the most profitable ever in world history and don't seem to want to pay any taxes, are just playing countries against one another for resources and cheap labor and bleed us dry.

The real problem is that we are now competing in a global economy, and as such, we will either have to lower our standard of living to match that other poorer nations with a lower pay scale, or raise theirs so that their wages are competitive with ours. Not going to happen. There's not enough resources to raise everyone in this world to our standard of living. These corporations are playing a shell game with cheap labor in other countries just to avoid paying high wages or high taxes. So what they get in return is massive profits, all at the expense of wealthy first-world countries like the U.S. and Europe. Like you said, we are fecked! Seriously!

I'd rather all my radical ass rantings be ridiculed over being ignored. Seems every question you ask or statement I respond to of yours just gets dismissed. At least laugh and point and call me bad names

Oh flip, I do agree with you. The Woodrow Wilson quote is quite accurate. We are now slaves to the oligarchs and the debt we owe to them. The effing bailout only helped the bankers and money brokers grease their skids. The rest of us working slobs were and are still getting shafted and all that BS was pushed through by fearful threats of gloom and doom. We've been suckered. Heaven forbid that those privileged few, that make soooooo much money that they can't even figure out a way to spend it all, have to pay a bigger share of taxes to keep our nation strong and vital. They're traitors.

tunnelcat wrote:share of taxes to keep our nation strong and vital.

PERSONALLY....

Everyone should have to pay taxes. I don't care how little you make. everyone who earns an income can afford SOMETHING. if you live in this country take ownership of it and help with the finances. Lord knows you receive enough in return.

Do away with the current Income Tax structure. set up a national sales Tax. it will do away with most of the loop holes. and if you want to progressive tax the rich then the more the product costs the more a tax % you impose on it.

Ok, let's agree right now then that no matter what jackass gets elected this next term, he or she will do exactly nothing except what these "few and dominant men" ask them to do.

In other less strong and focused terms:

All government controls is hiring of government employees. What government can, and to my mind, should do, is make for long term conditions that are favorable to the national economy.

Lol, all a brother wants is a job, they should let go of some of that money immediately to stimulate growth in small business's. Small business can be up and going and employing between 3-10 in 2-3 days. They are hoarding the grain. That would be an immediate stimulus to start funding viable small business and a huge leap in morale. Some people's much learning makes them fools.

CUDA wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:share of taxes to keep our nation strong and vital.

PERSONALLY....

Everyone should have to pay taxes. I don't care how little you make. everyone who earns an income can afford SOMETHING. if you live in this country take ownership of it and help with the finances. Lord knows you receive enough in return.

Yes, I agree. Trouble is, the uber rich and transnational corporations don't agree.

CUDA wrote:Do away with the current Income Tax structure. set up a national sales Tax. it will do away with most of the loop holes. and if you want to progressive tax the rich then the more the product costs the more a tax % you impose on it.

No, I still don't agree. A sales tax is regressive, no matter how much you sugar coat it. The middle class and poor, who spend most of their income on goods and services, will get hit the hardest with this type of tax. Show me where the majority of wealthy people will spend most of their income on goods and services, then I'll change my mind.

flip wrote:Ok, let's agree right now then that no matter what jackass gets elected this next term, he or she will do exactly nothing except what these "few and dominant men" ask them to do.

Yep, there's no good choices, from any party. We've lost the people's power to the Oligarchs. And the Conservatives and Tea Partiers worry about Socialism. We're so far from that idea it's ridiculous.

Lol, hell I said make fun of me

flip wrote:Lol, hell I said make fun of me

Why?

Honestly, there wasn't always a time statements like these were met with consensus. No, all I heard was THIS IS AMERICA BOY, never happen. Who's watch was that?

You know, the more I listen to these politicians, the more I can hear them saying the same things we are. They don't actually speak very clearly, but it's there if your listening for it. It seems like actual opposition. I think the trick is going to be to listen to which ones voice the strongest opposition to complete corporate rule.

What gripes me, is that with the Obama talks he is proposing 4 trillion in Cuts over the next ten years. Which if you left it as they tell it sounds like allot.
BUT then when you look at the fact they they are also proposing 14 trillion in new deficit spending over the same time frame. it makes me say WTF don't you Morons get it?!?!?!?!?!?!

I believe that part of it is so out of control, nobody knows exactly what to do. So, the battle is to make yourself as much padding as you can during uncertain years. If you go back to the early industrialization years, you will see the advent of oil and steel. Why would Woodrow Wilson sign the Federal Reserve and then immediately give a woe is me speech. He was strong-armed. You don't build ★■◆● in an industrialization without oil or steel. Honestly, It couldn't have been intentional, just perfect timing. Anybody who thinks this has anything to do with Illuminati, magical-12....any other farce is a gullible dipshit. The only thing that the Government can do now is look out after us by opposing the "special interest."

Who's idea was it to penalize American Corporations by taxing money made abroad? That's a big one. That forces most big business, regardless of their personal beliefs, to have to leave their money in the World Market and not bring it back. Why bring back 1.5 million when the instant it gets here, it's 1.2?

EDIT: Replaced big business with "special interest"

'Shut up and eat your peas you babies'!

Heh, yeah I was more interested in his "out years" statement. To say that implied we were in the process of going in.

CUDA wrote:What gripes me, is that with the Obama talks he is proposing 4 trillion in Cuts over the next ten years. Which if you left it as they tell it sounds like allot.
BUT then when you look at the fact they they are also proposing 14 trillion in new deficit spending over the same time frame. it makes me say WTF don't you Morons get it?!?!?!?!?!?!

We're screwed! The Republicans don't want to raise revenues at any cost or cut any defense spending and the Dems don't want to cut ANY spending hardly at all. If these out of touch idiots don't quit being obstreperous-sticks-in-the-mud, we're going to have Armageddon. I'm to the point where I've stopped spending any money on big things, like a new car, or hiring anyone for house repairs, until I see what these jackasses do to the country's economy in a month!

flip wrote:I think the trick is going to be to listen to which ones voice the strongest opposition to complete corporate rule.

What, and cut off their noses to spite their faces?

tunnelcat wrote:... We're screwed! The Republicans don't want to raise revenues at any cost or cut any defense spending and the Dems don't want to cut ANY spending hardly at all. If these out of touch idiots don't quit being obstreperous-sticks-in-the-mud, we're going to have Armageddon. ...

Or not.

You do realize if they don't raise the limit the sky doesn't fall don't you? They just have to cover what is most important with the money they do have and take some responsibility to decide what they can no longer afford etc.

Spidey wrote:.

Remember small & craft business came first, I think that speaks volumes…

about what, pray tell? Try scaling up a small steel production business, a small mining business
or a small chemical business and get back to me on how it works out. I am not talking theories, I am
laying out how the nation works, and has worked for 150 years.

flip wrote:Slick, that's **** and self-serving.

sure, now explain why.

Lemme tell you a secret too. The reason nobody figured it out before it was too late, is because it was concealed.

um, yes, it wasn't trumpeted. It did require a bit of education, knowledge of history and a lot of paying attention to figure out, I suppose. And, nowhere did I suggest that it is 'too late'. Too late for what?

Your idea of America is where we all work for Walmart

try reading my words again. I am, in fact, suggesting you all wake up or you'll be lucky to be employed by WalMart. I must admit, the W. Wilson quote is a hoot, like the nation hadn't been run by a handful of influential men since, like, since the beginning?

It can't be every single one of them have just turned a blind eye, nor is this a battle that can ever be won. Even before 1913, these monopolies had huge power, "sign this or else." The only thing you can do is present strong opposition. I hear some of them saying "don't bite the hand that feeds you." They should be removed and replaced with others who will challenge them. One thing is for sure, the direction we are going is not going to change, so We The People need some padding also for the "out years". I'm only voting for the ones who are speaking out against what the real threat is now. From the late 1800's to recently, the threat and battle was monopolies, now it's outright world domination. Do you really want The Rockefeller's, Carnegie's and Fords of the world able to run the whole world just because of a fortunate turn of events afforded to one of their ancestors? If so, we might as well rewrite our Constitution right now, because they have usurped our foundational beliefs by becoming "too big to fail."

tunnelcat wrote: Heaven forbid that those privileged few, that make soooooo much money that they can't even figure out a way to spend it all, have to pay a bigger share of taxes to keep our nation strong and vital. They're traitors.

oh, harsh words! That would really piss them off down at the yacht club!

Will Robinson wrote:You do realize if they don't raise the limit the sky doesn't fall don't you? They just have to cover what is most important with the money they do have and take some responsibility to decide what they can no longer afford etc.

ah, thanks, for my regular dose of Clueless. If we even remotely come close to doing what you say, it will work for exactly 11 days, until the first large interest payment is due(August 15, or thereabouts). At that point we either won't be able to pay, or will float the bonds out of desperation, at maybe(maybe, as in, if we're lucky) 5% interest. That's roughly a 500% increase over current debt costs. Not making that payment, which we will not be able to do without the debt ceiling rise to maintain routine, short-term credit, will lead to economic collapse of the US economy, probably within 30 days.

If that's true, then Obama and the others should hold out for Social Security and Medicaid, because surely the GOP leadership wouldn't bankrupt this country just to cater to the "special interest". Lol, it sucks to actually know what that means, "at least clothe and feed them well" and the oligarchs don't even want to do that. Boner is a pussifed corporate stooge that is doing everything he can to protect "special interests" money, and I myself had rather die than lose my status as a free American and become whatever is planned for me.

callmeslick wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:You do realize if they don't raise the limit the sky doesn't fall don't you? They just have to cover what is most important with the money they do have and take some responsibility to decide what they can no longer afford etc.

ah, thanks, for my regular dose of Clueless. If we even remotely come close to doing what you say, it will work for exactly 11 days, until the first large interest payment is due(August 15, or thereabouts). At that point we either won't be able to pay, or will float the bonds out of desperation, at maybe(maybe, as in, if we're lucky) 5% interest. That's roughly a 500% increase over current debt costs. Not making that payment, which we will not be able to do without the debt ceiling rise to maintain routine, short-term credit, will lead to economic collapse of the US economy, probably within 30 days.

Do you think Obama would choose to be the President who administered default? Or would he find the money he actually has access to and borrow there instead of from the source he wanted to borrow from?
What was the 2010 revenue? 14.5 trillion?!? They could find a way to service the debt and then they will finally see that they have to actually balance the books instead of continually printing more and more paper to cover last cycles paper...

The truth is, he would have to either be a self destructive idiot or he walks the walk of a moderate instead of just talking like one as an election nears.

Besides, the repubs will cave. All politicians will cave in this scenario because they all are beholding to the puppet masters who don't want to stop printing paper to finance their empire. This is all just a dance to see who caves a little more or a little faster and takes a personal hit for doing so in the next election.

Oh, and just for the record...we have been floating bonds out of desperation for decades!
We're just taking it a little closer to the wire this time because the end of this irresponsible game is actually in sight now so this is a good thing that some are pushing the envelope a little bit!!

flip wrote:If that's true, then Obama and the others should hold out for Social Security and Medicaid, because surely the GOP leadership wouldn't bankrupt this country just to cater to the "special interest"

.


you're expecting ideologues who routinely fall over themselves to sign the latest 'pledge' for one right wing cause or another to act rationally? FWIW, I think Boehner(who is, as you state, a corporate tool) is desperate for this debacle NOT to happen, but he is stuck with a new crop of Representatives who don't really care all that much, or so it seems.

Yea, it’s all the right’s fault.

You can’t take a huge part of the budget…call it a sacred cow, declare it off limits…then blame the other guy for being obstinate.

I don't have much confidence in any of them being able to do anything but continually screw ★■◆● up, even if they are well meaning. We need to recycle this whole bunch. ALL of them. It's like once you elect one of them, they never freakin go away. I'm convinced they are all related to some degree .

Will Robinson wrote:Do you think Obama would choose to be the President who administered default? Or would he find the money he actually has access to and borrow there instead of from the source he wanted to borrow from?

I'll try this again, and type real slow and hope like mad you get it:
1. As of Aug 2(or thereabouts), we can no longer borrow.
2. The daily revenue is roughly 22 billion dollars, at this time of year.
3. We normally spend around 45 billion per day, but could scale way back to the 22 billion by furloughing
employees and closing all non-essential facilities. We could, perhaps, even keep paying medicare
and social security and unemployment type stuff although it starts getting really tight.
4 Then, we get to August 15 or sometime near there. You owe around 25 Billion dollars extra that day,
because of set of treasury notes comes due.
5. Now, we are fecked. Because the only way out would be emergency borrowing or outright default.
Either way, you will then have ZERO commercial credit, personal loan rates on flexible vehicles such as
certain mortgages or credit cards would probably float close to 30%. Want to talk about a job killer?
And, yet, we have a cadre of 'politicians' who think it will be good for the People who they oesthensibly represent to make Obama face this fate. Freaking great.....