Re: Does morality require God?
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:26 am
ya know. I just noticed. in less than a year you have half as may posts as I do in the 12 years I've been a member of this board.
GET A LIFE
GET A LIFE
I think the first is at least somewhat unique....Jeff250 wrote:The first two don't seem unique. For instance, if we took up the rule "most happiness for the most people" as our moral absolute, then that rule would 1) never change and 2) be self-consistent. In fact, your first attribute seems to be true whenever you take up anything as a moral absolute.
The third seems to already assume some moral principle like "if you create sentient beings, then you have the moral authority to make whatever moral rules you want for them," but where does that moral principle come from?
I don't doubt that God has the power to get me if I have different moral beliefs than him, but that doesn't make his beliefs correct. Why are God's moral beliefs (or character or nature) better than my moral beliefs, especially if his aren't based on anything?
That God's moral beliefs are unchanging--a lot of DBB'rs have unchanging beliefs, but that doesn't lend any credence to them.
That God is omniscient--that sounds very useful for correctly applying his a priori moral beliefs to any given situation, but as to determining whether those a priori moral beliefs are themselves correct, since they weren't even based on anything, I don't see where omniscience can play a role in justifying them.
Will Robinson wrote:I suppose that if you know God...actually hear him in your head or however that works... then you can attribute standards of morality to a divine source/judge/teacher. And it seems like it would make good sense to hold those standards above all else unless you want to challenge God.
But if you don't have him 'in your head' somehow then any thing "from God" really comes from the same source as a government or parental or philosophical source of moral standards. Man.
You can tell me to read the bible to 'know' gods standard of morality but all I really know is the bible was written by men and I have to take it on faith that they delivered the standards of god into the book. I don't have that much faith in men.
I know not this punishing god of which you speak.So going along with CUDA's earlier statement, if one believes in a punishing God for their morality, is that driven by obedience and unquestioning fear of God's reprisals and punishments, ie., going to Hell, if one doesn't follow His tenets to the letter? And if one believes in a loving God instead, is it one's conscience, not their fear, that gives them their morals to live by?
Sure, there, what is right or wrong is relative to the situation at hand, but that's true of all moral theories.snoopy wrote:I think the first is at least somewhat unique....
Taking your example - the substance of "most happiness for the most people" changes from day to day. The substance/character of God never has and never will change.
I'm willing to assume everything you would like me to about God up to but not including the question at hand. If you require me to assume that God can have one moral belief not based on anything for him to use as a bootstrap to legitimize the rest, then you might as well require me to just assume that all of his moral beliefs not based on anything are legitimate.snoopy wrote:For the third: Yes, I am asserting a principle along those lines. It's what the Bible asserts... if we want to argue upon the basis of a Biblical God we're obligated to the rest of what the Bible has to say, too. If we're cherry picking and making the rest up, them we can make our hypothetical gods fit whatever mold we want.
If that program is sentient, then no, I don't have the right to terminate it according to my fancy. For instance, Data is not the property of Starfleet.snoopy wrote:If I had to compare it to something earthly, maybe I'd think of it more along the lines of a computer algorithm... a programmer has the right to impose behavior rules upon a program, and judge it "defective" (in the analogy, defective due to creator error) when it doesn't do what he wanted. God made the universe to operate according to His moral code, and when it deviates it's certainly his prerogative to judge it and take corrective action. Thus, His prescription for for behavior for us is binding in a way that parent's rules for children can never be.
The Old Testament is chock full of a punishing God. The Hebrews still believe it. So which is he now? Did he suddenly get a dose of nicey nicey because his "children" got tired of all that nastiness?CUDA wrote:I know not this punishing god of which you speak.So going along with CUDA's earlier statement, if one believes in a punishing God for their morality, is that driven by obedience and unquestioning fear of God's reprisals and punishments, ie., going to Hell, if one doesn't follow His tenets to the letter? And if one believes in a loving God instead, is it one's conscience, not their fear, that gives them their morals to live by?
What I do, I do from Love, how I follow, I follow out of Love, and by his example. I have no fear from My God.
tunnelcat wrote:The Old Testament is chock full of a punishing God. The Hebrews still believe it. So which is he now? Did he suddenly get a dose of nicey nicey because his "children" got tired of all that nastiness?CUDA wrote:I know not this punishing god of which you speak.So going along with CUDA's earlier statement, if one believes in a punishing God for their morality, is that driven by obedience and unquestioning fear of God's reprisals and punishments, ie., going to Hell, if one doesn't follow His tenets to the letter? And if one believes in a loving God instead, is it one's conscience, not their fear, that gives them their morals to live by?
What I do, I do from Love, how I follow, I follow out of Love, and by his example. I have no fear from My God.
so I just answered both of your questions with one scripture. I showed you who God is. and you have said in the past you like who Jesus is. and I also showed you why we followJohn 14
Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. .
That's an interesting question, and related to one I've struggled with myself. Let's take your computer program example, and extend it to the likely future, where someone has managed to create a fully-functional, human-level artificial intelligence. Make it able to pass the Turing test, capable of experiencing abstract thoughts and emotions, essentially indistinguishable from the human intelligence we recognize in one another. In a situation like that, does our status as that entity's creator entitle us to take "corrective action" against it, up to and including deleting it? Or would doing that just make us royal assholes? It's hardly a question I came up with myself, since it's been the subject of who knows how much sci-fi, but I think you can use it as an analogy to our relationship with God. Does God's status as Creator automatically imply that he possesses supreme rights over us...or should we as independent, sentient beings maintain those rights ourselves? It's something to think about.snoopy wrote:Your next question comes back to my #3 (and my response to Foil's qualms) - morality isn't for God, it's for His creation. Why does it apply and fit? Because He made the universe that way. I don't think the analogy of the parent saying "because I said so" to the child follows. If I had to compare it to something earthly, maybe I'd think of it more along the lines of a computer algorithm... a programmer has the right to impose behavior rules upon a program, and judge it "defective" (in the analogy, defective due to creator error) when it doesn't do what he wanted. God made the universe to operate according to His moral code, and when it deviates it's certainly his prerogative to judge it and take corrective action. Thus, His prescription for for behavior for us is binding in a way that parent's rules for children can never be.
all civilized societies(including Republics) require a certain amount of shared morality. Nothing absolute, but a set of commonly agreed upon morals that can be seen as a minimal baseline, IMO.flip wrote:Does a free Republic require morality?
well, I suppose, my use of the word 'absolutes' was a bad choice. What I meant was there were no specific mores that HAD to be accepted. But, there has to a be a core of morals that the society, as a whole, agrees to accept as given.flip wrote:I think without absolutes you cannot maintain a free and civilized society, As someone else said earlier, in some cultures, cannibalism is considered moral. How do you reach a high standard of morals and then maintain that standard without absolutes?
You're still post Jesus with all your examples. I'm talking about a pre-Jesus God and all He did before that event. Did having a "Son" make God change? And can an omniscient being even change his temperament, or morals. And since the Jews don't follow Jesus, but instead the ways of the Old Testament, are they more immoral than those who follow Jesus?CUDA wrote:tunnelcat wrote:The Old Testament is chock full of a punishing God. The Hebrews still believe it. So which is he now? Did he suddenly get a dose of nicey nicey because his "children" got tired of all that nastiness?CUDA wrote:I know not this punishing god of which you speak.So going along with CUDA's earlier statement, if one believes in a punishing God for their morality, is that driven by obedience and unquestioning fear of God's reprisals and punishments, ie., going to Hell, if one doesn't follow His tenets to the letter? And if one believes in a loving God instead, is it one's conscience, not their fear, that gives them their morals to live by?
What I do, I do from Love, how I follow, I follow out of Love, and by his example. I have no fear from My God.so I just answered both of your questions with one scripture. I showed you who God is. and you have said in the past you like who Jesus is. and I also showed you why we followJohn 14
Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. .
Shakespeare in Hamlet wrote:Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so....
Would you accept then that the Bill of Right's is an absolute minimum set of morals for a free society?callmeslick wrote:well, I suppose, my use of the word 'absolutes' was a bad choice. What I meant was there were no specific mores that HAD to be accepted. But, there has to a be a core of morals that the society, as a whole, agrees to accept as given.flip wrote:I think without absolutes you cannot maintain a free and civilized society, As someone else said earlier, in some cultures, cannibalism is considered moral. How do you reach a high standard of morals and then maintain that standard without absolutes?
But when do one person's freedoms infringe upon another person's? How many laws are needed in a free society? I live in a college town. The drunken partying has gotten so out of hand that the poor neighbors of these students are telling the city and the university that conditions are intolerable and that they HAVE to find ways to crack down on the problem. But the students don't SEE any problem with their fun and think partying is an adolescent right of passage. Who's in the right? The neighbors who need to sleep and not have to worry about drunk students peeing in their yards, or the students who think that they have the right to have some fun and that the neighbors are just making a mountain out of a molehill?Jeff250 wrote:This is what laws are all about. Laws don't require that you agree with them, but you still have to follow them. (This is also why a free society should have as few laws as possible to keep people from harming each other.)
But wasn't that much later, long after most of the history in the Old Testament? I thought the first thing God did was create the heavens and the Earth, then the plants and animals, then Adam, then Eve. Jesus came loooooong after Moses and Abraham and a lot of nasty history where God threw a lot of fits over the machinations of his flock.flip wrote:@TC The Bible actually states that the first thing God did was have a Son
I agree with your sentiment that it's not always clear cut where we should draw the line. Here though, I would say that being too loud and peeing in other people's yards definitely infringes on others' rights, and I suspect that these things are already illegal where you live, but perhaps those laws aren't being sufficiently enforced.tunnelcat wrote:But when do one person's freedoms infringe upon another person's? How many laws are needed in a free society? I live in a college town. The drunken partying has gotten so out of hand that the poor neighbors of these students are telling the city and the university that conditions are intolerable and that they HAVE to find ways to crack down on the problem. But the students don't SEE any problem with their fun and think partying is an adolescent right of passage. Who's in the right? The neighbors who need to sleep and not have to worry about drunk students peeing in their yards, or the students who think that they have the right to have some fun and that the neighbors are just making a mountain out of a molehill?
Bingo! We have a winner. No new laws needed, just enforce the ones we have. Now go apply that to other issues!Jeff250 wrote:... but perhaps those laws aren't being sufficiently enforced.
A common misconception among all but the self-taught. The Bible actually states that the firstborn of creation was Christ through whom and with whom God made the Universe. Hence the "let us" in Genesis. I liken it to mitosis. The bible states that Christ was the physical manifestation of an invisible God throughout the Old Testament and lastly inherited the name Jesus and sat down on the throne of God, with God's full authority. After the end of everything, Jesus relinquishes that authority back to God the Father and all believers inherit equality with Jesus. It's also why I don't believe in the Trinity Doctrine. There's only 2 of them. Father and Son. One in body and one in Spirit.But wasn't that much later, long after most of the history in the Old Testament? I thought the first thing God did was create the heavens and the Earth, then the plants and animals, then Adam, then Eve. Jesus came loooooong after Moses and Abraham and a lot of nasty history where God threw a lot of fits over the machinations of his flock.
If you looked at a urine stream with a strobe light you would know why.Top Gun wrote:I think the Mythbusters didn't have too much success in duplicating the "peeing on the third rail" myth, but hell, it's definitely worth another shot.
no, freedom doesn't imply morals, they might be seen as a set of guiding principles, but not morals. What is moral about a right to bear arms? Or, freedom of assembly? No, in my sense of the words, morals and principles are two different things. Morals more apply to how an individual conducts himsellf within society. The Bill of Rights is an example of how society agrees to treat individuals......see the difference?flip wrote:Would you accept then that the Bill of Right's is an absolute minimum set of morals for a free society?
your theology is a bit wrong. I wont disagree with the We in Genesis, but there is a Trinity in the Bible it's talked about many times and explained as individualsflip wrote:A common misconception among all but the self-taught. The Bible actually states that the firstborn of creation was Christ through whom and with whom God made the Universe. Hence the "let us" in Genesis. I liken it to mitosis. The bible states that Christ was the physical manifestation of an invisible God throughout the Old Testament and lastly inherited the name Jesus and sat down on the throne of God, with God's full authority. After the end of everything, Jesus relinquishes that authority back to God the Father and all believers inherit equality with Jesus. It's also why I don't believe in the Trinity Doctrine. There's only 2 of them. Father and Son. One in body and one in Spirit.But wasn't that much later, long after most of the history in the Old Testament? I thought the first thing God did was create the heavens and the Earth, then the plants and animals, then Adam, then Eve. Jesus came loooooong after Moses and Abraham and a lot of nasty history where God threw a lot of fits over the machinations of his flock.
EDIT:Self-taught is not really that accurate , I had the fortune of no clutter when I started reading the Bible, so I had no pre-notions of what it meant. I was taught by God through His word.
Christ wrote:All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].
there is no pre-Jesus or post-Jesus God, they are one in the same. and unchanging. you can believe what you wish but you'd be wrong. the Bible is explicitly clear about the nature of God and that nature and his attributes are revealed in the life of Christ.tunnelcat wrote:You're still post Jesus with all your examples. I'm talking about a pre-Jesus God and all He did before that event. Did having a "Son" make God change? And can an omniscient being even change his temperament, or morals. And since the Jews don't follow Jesus, but instead the ways of the Old Testament, are they more immoral than those who follow Jesus?
LOLcallmeslick wrote:wow, CUDA.......my Dad is under the weather today, so I won't be driving over to take him to Church this morning. I think you saved me a trip on my own behalf, as I just read more scripture than I have in a while.
But accurately should read like this:1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
The first is an addition by the King James translators and is in no other translation. If we can agree that does not belong there, as it is not in the original text. I feel we can have an honest discussion, if not there is no use in proceeding.7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
I want you to notice here that a clear distinction is made between God and the Christ and that although at present the Christ acts with the full authority of God, seated on God's throne, in the future He lowers and subordinates Himself again. On this basis here:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
What this all means is that in the very beginning, before God did anything else, He made someone just like Himself to physically represent Him. The Bible declares that at no time hs any man ever seen God, for God is A Spirit, but Christ has always been His physical representation in a physical world.10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
I agree with the premise, but I'm not sure I agree with the analogy, it seems to be a linear type of thinking. in human terms. but proceed.flip wrote:I feel I should tell the ending first:
I want you to notice here that a clear distinction is made between God and the Christ and that although at present the Christ acts with the full authority of God, seated on God's throne, in the future He lowers and subordinates Himself again. On this basis here:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.
How just as woman was pulled from the side of man, Christ was pulled from the side of God.
He sat in the garden and begged God to find another way but still went in obedience to the cross. Then, He inherited the name Jesus and sat down at the right hand of the Father and now holds the full authority of God. In the future He steps back down and submits Himself under God again. Also, the analogy is not mine, it is Pauls straight out of Ephesians . Paul was setting an order of authority. Although Jesus has the full authority of God, He is still under the God who gave Him that authority.14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God
There is only 2 of them. The son and the Father. One in body, one in Spirit, but in the future at the end of all things, Jesus steps down again and God will be above all.19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.