DescentBB

Spidey wrote:See, there is something that doesn’t fit here…the ACA was passed with only one Republican vote…so why didn’t it look like something the Democrats wanted????

because it would have been filibustered in the Senate. To get over that hurdle, they had to give up quite a bit.

If they had the power to vote in anything they wanted, there is something wrong with blaming the Republicans.

see Introductory American Civics, the section on how Congress works.

I see your point on the filibuster, they should force people to have to stand there with no food or water, and if you stop talking for 30 seconds you get thrown off the floor.

Spidey wrote:I see your point on the filibuster, they should force people to have to stand there with no food or water, and if you stop talking for 30 seconds you get thrown off the floor.

Spidey wrote:I see your point on the filibuster, they should force people to have to stand there with no food or water, and if you stop talking for 30 seconds you get thrown off the floor.

X2

Its kind of difficult to have discourse with someone about a plan they want you to agree to when they won't let you know what the details are until you agree to support it....and they will lie about what the details are to get your constituents to compell you to go along with it.....and they get a pass from the media for 'negotiating' in such bad faith!

The Repubs don't have an alternate plan but that in no way excuses the method or the content of the Dem 'plan'!

And what the hell is this alleged "fix"?!?
He lied when he said people won't lose their plan so the way he will fix it is now he says you keep it for a year...then lose it. That fixes what exactly!?!?

If the media was objective that wouldn't be called a "fix"!
It would be properly described as a blatantly pathetic political stunt and shouted down with furious vengeance!

It's not a "fix", it's a temporary "band-aid".

very good perspective about what really is the important part:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/an- ... dium=email

tunnelcat wrote:It's not a "fix", it's a temporary "band-aid".

It's not even a temporary band aid.
It does absolutely nothing. Its all a shell game. And the president knows it. He wouldn't do anything to change this legislation. LEGALLY.
The insurance companies cannot reinstated those plans. He knows that. And why would they? They would just need to cancel them again next year. There is absolutely no logical business reason to do it.

All the president is doing is trying to buy time past the next election to help out his party, and to save some kind of face for telling a lie to the public.

so we'll just sit back for now and watch the carnage wrought by this law. Just wait until next year when the employer mandate does the same thing and millions more lose their coverage.

CUDA, there is not going to be carnage from this law. As my link discusses, and others will gladly inform you as well, the talk of carnage is a nonsensical smokescreen generated by people determined to kill the law before it becomes well-liked. Obama and others will, I trust, plow forward and finish the job, and you'll see that no 'carnage' of any sort results.

the GOP alternative:
http://www.texasobserver.org/a-galvesto ... afety-net/

callmeslick wrote:the GOP alternative:
http://www.texasobserver.org/a-galvesto ... afety-net/

And that is why I don't celebrate the victory the Repubs are trying so desperately to snatch from the jaws of political defeat. Because it is ultimately the defeat of the citizens who put them all there to serve us, not the political class.

There are plenty of examples of the political class doing this kind of thing, gaining political victories at the expense, literally and figuratively, of the citizens. Don't sit there and think 'Yea, at least one conservative gets it...this is the Repubs doing bad while the Dems try to do good'.

This is the political class doing what they always do, regardless of the D or R by their name. The example you gave isn't the result of Red state politics or Conservative politics. It is the result of us creating, empowering and then unleashing a political class upon ourselves.

It is relatively early in the process but this is no different than numerous predictable Hollywood movie plots where the government methodically manipulates the citizens into an untenable quality of life while enjoying a luxurious elite status for themselves. It ends in tragedy and revolt.

A little further down the timeline of civilizations on earth, America will be a blip of promise that ended badly in human greed, pettiness and self destruction.
If you are an informed, intelligent human and confidently supporting either a Dem or Repub agenda your behavior is synonymous with battered wife syndrome.
It is long past time for you to accept responsibility and save this thing called America.

You see where the fallacy is in that story is this…

Even if that poor patient had insurance the deductable would have forced him to have to pay for those tests himself anyway.

Therefore that doctor…which should have hospital admittance rights (IMO) should have had him admitted to the hospital anyway, because insurance wasn’t going to pay for those tests anyway.

Where the story goes from there is an unknown, because as I and tc believe he should have received treatment even though he doesn’t have insurance.

Instead of ★■◆●ing around with insurance the government could have simply made a law that provided care to people in need……..but nooooo.

Probably wouldn’t be any more expensive than expanding Medicaid and those subsidies.

But you see, the government had to cover its ass, by saying the ACA would pay for itself, which any sensible person knows is just another lie.

........................

The fact that slick posts a link to a story about a doctor that dispels the myth that ER’s are performing all of this expensive care is also ironic.

Which people including myself, have been pointing out all along.

callmeslick wrote:the GOP alternative:
http://www.texasobserver.org/a-galvesto ... afety-net/

That's what we had before the ACA came around and which we'll probably return to under the GOP's auspices and after the Dem's screwups when the ACA implodes. People just can't seem to envision our present system's "death panels", I mean, rationing by the "those who can pay" method.

Will Robinson wrote:

callmeslick wrote:the GOP alternative:
http://www.texasobserver.org/a-galvesto ... afety-net/

And that is why I don't celebrate the victory the Repubs are trying so desperately to snatch from the jaws of political defeat. Because it is ultimately the defeat of the citizens who put them all there to serve us, not the political class.

There are plenty of examples of the political class doing this kind of thing, gaining political victories at the expense, literally and figuratively, of the citizens. Don't sit there and think 'Yea, at least one conservative gets it...this is the Repubs doing bad while the Dems try to do good'.

This is the political class doing what they always do, regardless of the D or R by their name. The example you gave isn't the result of Red state politics or Conservative politics. It is the result of us creating, empowering and then unleashing a political class upon ourselves.

It is relatively early in the process but this is no different than numerous predictable Hollywood movie plots where the government methodically manipulates the citizens into an untenable quality of life while enjoying a luxurious elite status for themselves. It ends in tragedy and revolt.

A little further down the timeline of civilizations on earth, America will be a blip of promise that ended badly in human greed, pettiness and self destruction.
If you are an informed, intelligent human and confidently supporting either a Dem or Repub agenda your behavior is synonymous with battered wife syndrome.
It is long past time for you to accept responsibility and save this thing called America.

OK sage one, what is your idea of a good medical system? You gripe plenty about what the politicians are doing and about how bad the government does it, but what should we as a people be doing, other than elect more of the wealthy and insular freshmen we keep getting ( I am talking about the tea party as well as from the other 2 parties)?

tunnelcat wrote:...
OK sage one, what is your idea of a good medical system?

Ok, assuming I accept the premise that want the government to step in between me and my healthcare....

Instead of implementing this huge clusterhump that, even if it comes out functioning as designed, will end with roughly the SAME number of uninsured as the proponents said was justification for the law.....

I would revisit the 'shovel ready jobs' moment that also failed and I would snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.
By combining that with that campaign promise Obama never delivered on of a civil force similar to the peace corps that was just an attempt to associate himself with Kennedy.

I'd do some of the things he only pretended to care about!

I'd go build health clinics everywhere.
I'd put people to work building the places, creating and staffing and training and supplying the places. Cleaning the places, picking up disabled patients in little 'clinic busses'. Hiring day care workers to work in my Head Start facilities that would be built in adjoining properties...with all the associated staffers and suppliers and cooks and cleaners and nurses, etc. etc. that those places would need.

I'd be handing out scholarships to all medical related students who will trade the schooling or training for internship in these clinics. I'd be handing out scholarships for day care workers and computer techs and maintenance techs, etc etc all the jobs I create I'd pay people's training for.

The government would provide means tested health care including preventative and therapy. The government would subsidize catastrophic coverage and/or provide the treatment as its clinics came on line. I would create a regulation that entices private insurers to carry a percentage of these customers that they used to turn down...pre existing...indigent...etc.

Short term would be to provide catastrophic coverage for all and access for preventative and testing care. As well as create jobs and increase productivity.

Long term goal would be to make America the worlds preeminent location for medical care, research and related services.

And all that costs less than ACA because I'd use all those billions that were appropriated for Stimulus I II III but never spent...and use some of what is being pissed away now on ACA
And I'll even let Nancy Pelosi read the Bill before she votes for it!

tunnelcat wrote:You gripe plenty about what the politicians are doing and about how bad the government does it, but what should we as a people be doing, other than elect more of the wealthy and insular freshmen we keep getting ( I am talking about the tea party as well as from the other 2 parties)?

Vote for for anything other than a R or D. Then send an email telling them you did it because of their failure to serve us over their entrenched status quo Party.

Will Robinson wrote: I would revisit the 'shovel ready jobs' moment that also failed and I would snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.
By combining that with that campaign promise Obama never delivered on of a civil force similar to the peace corps that was just an attempt to associate himself with Kennedy.

with what money, which would have to have been approved by the House?

I'd go build health clinics everywhere.
I'd put people to work building the places, creating and staffing and training and supplying the places. Cleaning the places, picking up disabled patients in little 'clinic busses'. Hiring day care workers to work in my Head Start facilities that would be built in adjoining properties...with all the associated staffers and suppliers and cooks and cleaners and nurses, etc. etc. that those places would need.

once again, with what money?

I'd be handing out scholarships to all medical related students who will trade the schooling or training for internship in these clinics. I'd be handing out scholarships for day care workers and computer techs and maintenance techs, etc etc all the jobs I create I'd pay people's training for.

The government would provide means tested health care including preventative and therapy. The government would subsidize catastrophic coverage and/or provide the treatment as its clinics came on line. I would create a regulation that entices private insurers to carry a percentage of these customers that they used to turn down...pre existing...indigent...etc.

Short term would be to provide catastrophic coverage for all and access for preventative and testing care. As well as create jobs and increase productivity.

Long term goal would be to make America the worlds preeminent location for medical care, research and related services.

once again, when would the House finance such expenditure? Your ideas are all pretty good ones, but one has to view the Obama Presidency as an effort to accomplish what could be accomplished despite a group of legislators unwilling to approve or fund ANYTHING. Hell, he can't, 5 years in, get 1/2 of what should be routine appointments past the Senate. Makes getting really good ideas a challenge, to put it mildly.

And all that costs less than ACA because I'd use all those billions that were appropriated for Stimulus I II III but never spent...and use some of what is being pissed away now on ACA
And I'll even let Nancy Pelosi read the Bill before she votes for it!

now, you're being petty. Those billions(and actually twice as much again more) were needed in ALL areas of the economy, not just concentrated on one.

Slick there are billions in allocated stimulus that have never been spent! Some of it scheduled to expire and dissolve into the general fund. And add to it however many billions have been budgeted for the current system. All that money has made it through that scary gauntlet of teapartiers so you don't get to shoot down my idea by saying they would be somehow more obstructionist than they have been.

Putting people to work in jobs that also increase health care coverage would be a much better 'ACA' than the one we got.

TC asked what I would do different....there you go...different....

Will Robinson wrote:Slick there are billions in allocated stimulus that have never been spent!

links, with details, please?

Some of it scheduled to expire and dissolve into the general fund. And add to it however many billions have been budgeted for the current system. All that money has made it through that scary gauntlet of teapartiers so you don't get to shoot down my idea by saying they would be somehow more obstructionist than they have been.

every cent of it was allocated BEFORE the 2010 elections, hence pre-Tea Party.

Putting people to work in jobs that also increase health care coverage would be a much better 'ACA' than the one we got.

TC asked what I would do different....there you go...different....

as I said, many of those ideas are GOOD healthcare proposals, but I think the price tag to do what you propose might stagger you, and would dwarf the cost of the ACA.

OK...billions expired details inside...

As to cost. Do you really want to go there?!? ACA projected costs have doubled and create no revenue.

My proposal puts taxpayers to work...taxpayers who contribute revenue...
My proposal not only gets healthcare to the poor but does it by giving poor areas all kinds of productivity.
My proposal is a hell of a lot better than billions to Obama friends like Solyndra and Michelle Obamas friend who supervised that wonderful website that is being rebuilt from the very first page of code outward as well as "managing" the hurricane Sandy relief fund where she can't seem to find the state of New Jersey to distribute the funds!!!
Maybe our high tech President could show her how to use Google Maps...I'm sure the peeps in Jersey wouldn't mind getting it late instead of never!

Will,
I read the link. Turns out, first, that most of the funds were allocated, but were not used. Not the Fed fault. Second, the whole amount is less than 3% of the total. A large amount, but hardly massive, in terms of allocated funding.
As for Sandy funding, the money is available, has been available.....the issue in distribution as I understand it is with the States of New York and New Jersey. Delaware is not having such issues, nor did Maryland or Virginia(smaller amounts might account for easier movement of money). The Solyndra example is always a hoot to read, as the entire project around Solar producers, despite hits and misses, actually did some good. As did the car company bailouts and other uses of money. Also rather humorous to read you are spreading the goofy Obama-hate to his Spouse. Did the dog or kids offend you also, and you just haven't gotten to them??

Will, all your ideas are valid and sound good. But getting them implemented would be impossible with our present political system. And you want to spend tax money on all sorts of goodies that you'd have to fight tooth and nail over, mostly Republicans by the way, because as we well know, they HATE any government spending that even smells of helping that socialistic idea of a commons.

You say vote for anyone but R and D. But I don't see any of the new freshmen congressmen or women even remotely close to considering your types of ideas, and some of them are tea partiers. They'd rather spend time voting over and over trying to ban abortion or some other such nonsense. Hell, the House is almost taking the rest of the year off without accomplishing anything at all. What a waste. I will take your advise and not vote for either R or D in the future. They both suck at their jobs and need to go. Both being a liberal leaning person, you may not like the types of people I would vote for however.

If we had a properly working political system….we wouldn’t have the ACA either.

And speaking of stimulus, when do you think the government will come clean and admit the Federal Reserve’s bond buying program is really a “keep the government solvent” program and not really stimulus?

callmeslick wrote:Will,
I read the link. Turns out, first, that most of the funds were allocated, but were not used. Not the Fed fault. Second, the whole amount is less than 3% of the total. A large amount, but hardly massive, in terms of allocated funding.

So much straw man construction going on there slick!
Multiple billions are going unused! And that article doesn't catalog all of it. And by the way, the Pentagon is a Federal institution so if their portion goes unneeded how can you try to say it isn't the federal government?

And regardless of why these funds sit unspent, IT SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN TAKEN FROM US if it wasn't really needed as bad as they said it was! And that covers all of it and was done by Bush, Obama and Congress AKA the Fed...

Those bills passed for the purpose of stimulating the economy and the money they took is instead going into the general fund. From there they are spent on pork for buying votes.

And Solyndra took over half a BILLION from the Obama administration in loans AFTER he knew they were going bankrupt! Go try and get a loan in the real world after disclosing your intention to shut the doors, fire the crew, liquidate your business, pay yourself millions in compensation and leave your bills unpaid!

Most of that half BILLION stayed in the pockets of the fat cats at the top....the same fat cats who pumped hundreds of thousands into Dem Party campaigns including Obama's!

So quit blowing smoke up my butt trying to dismiss that example of crony payola as an honest attempt to create solar energy that just didn't pan out!, that is an incredibly lame misrepresentation of the facts! Basically Obama used them to launder taxpayer money into his campaign and the pockets of his buddies. As he did with the Unions pensions etc. etc.

The stimulus money was used for those kind of shady political payoffs as much as it was used for actual job creation. There was around a TRILLION dollars taken from us by those couple of Stimulus Bills. Don't try to tell me there isn't enough in there, added to the TRILLION being laundered through the ACA, to do something like I'm talking about instead.

Two TRILLION dollars could build a network of clinics across the country and employ hundreds of thousands and "save jobs" by supporting local businesses that would be serving those clinics and Head Start locations. Thousands of people trained for careers. Poor people getting access to free healthcare. Millions more getting means tested subsidies...etc, et...frikken cetra

tunnelcat wrote:....

.... I will take your advise and not vote for either R or D in the future. They both suck at their jobs and need to go. Both being a liberal leaning person, you may not like the types of people I would vote for however.

I don't care who you choose. Just as long as you inform the party/candidate you used to support why you took your support away from them you will have cast the most powerful vote you could!

Welcome to the revolution!

By the way, this what was meant by "take our country back". And don't worry, you aren't a racist either for wanting to do it.....

agree with the last post from you, Will, and I'm always astounded how unwilling people are to do so when the curtain in the voting booth closes behind them.......I might add that under the current reality, the key point in the process might be the primary as well as the general election.

Will Robinson wrote:By the way, this what was meant by "take our country back". And don't worry, you aren't a racist either for wanting to do it.....

Funny how that slogan only appeared right after an African American was elected President. They should have been throwing a fit and protesting looooooong before that. I don't buy it.

tunnelcat wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:By the way, this what was meant by "take our country back". And don't worry, you aren't a racist either for wanting to do it.....

Funny how that slogan only appeared right after an African American was elected President. They should have been throwing a fit and protesting looooooong before that. I don't buy it.

I used it before Obama ever was elected to any office let alone President....and I didn't originate it. I repeated what I was hearing others say.

Maybe you never paid it any mind until some one told you to "know" it was racist....

Maybe YOU did, but it wasn't really in the public lexicon until AFTER Obama was elected. I sure don't remember it before he was elected, but I don't run in conservative circles. Conservatives were and are the persons presently using that particular phrase too, so it stinks of racism and a single party's radical politics and conceit. If it was truly a "people's phrase", it would have been shouted at sign waving rallies when the previous president was putting in the Patriot Act and taking away all our freedoms, but noooooooo, nary a peep outside the White House back then. The time to act is before something dangerous to a free society becomes written in stone. It's far more difficult to get rid of later on.

Here's a few other viewpoints on that very charged phrase.

http://www.colonial82.newsvine.com/_new ... ry-are-you

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/04/2 ... t-explains

Getting upset over political slogans…what a waste of time…both sides make them up…and they are all dumb.

Ok...some are actually clever. (very few)

The phrase has been around for probably almost as long as the country has. The opportunity to allege racist intent...thus obfuscating the reason for the complaint, dodging the implications of the message....has only been around since we elected a black President.

Your anecdotal proof that a race card is being played is not proof of anything else. Unless you choose to believe the 'proof'...

Hmmm. The old "prove that I'm not a racist" excuse.

tunnelcat wrote:Hmmm. The old "prove that I'm not a racist" excuse.

No, thanks to your ill-logic you have created, by way of your accusation, the old prove a negative or the accusation must be true. You probably descend from the pilgrims in Salem who developed the 'drown the witch test'.

Hrm seems the HHS has push the enrollment back until after the next election. Immagine that

The Obama administration plans to delay the start of next year's ObamaCare enrollment period, a move pitched as a way to give consumers and insurance companies more time to study their options -- but which also conveniently pushes the second round of enrollment past the 2014 midterm elections.

A Department of Health and Human Services official confirmed the change to Fox News. The decision does not affect those trying to enroll this year, despite the myriad problems with the launch of the law and HealthCare.gov. Rather, it affects those who will sign up late next year for 2015 coverage.

Well, when your first plan ends in a massive clusterf**k, change the plan.

Now Marco Rubio wants to throw sugar into the gas tank of the Obamacare engine. That's not going to help things, is it?

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... sting-plan

geez, I keep waiting for ONE Republican to actually try and address the problem of millions of uninsured and millions more underinsured, and the comparatively poor healthcare outcomes in the US. Sadly, they only seem able to try and derail the one plan that DID get passed.

callmeslick wrote: Sadly, they only seem able to try and derail the one plan that DID get passed.

NAH I think the democrats fucked that one up all on their lonesome

THEY promised to cover the 30 million uninsured. yet we will still have 30 million uninsured once they law is fully implemented. They lied.

THEY promised that rates would not go up.yet they are going up in every state but 2. They lied

THEY promised that you could keep your own insurance if you liked it. But 5 million people so far have found out you cannot. They lied


Nah. Cant blame the Republicans on this one. Not one of them voted for it. And they warned the democrats about the problems with the law and tried to pass legislation to amend it, and every time it was voted down by the Democrats and unanimously to boot.

Nope cant blame the republicans for this fiasco. Keep trying though.

callmeslick wrote:geez, I keep waiting for ONE Republican to actually try and address the problem of millions of uninsured and millions more underinsured, and the comparatively poor healthcare outcomes in the US. Sadly, they only seem able to try and derail the one plan that DID get passed.

Why should the Republicans even try. Whatever they would put forth would be squashed by Harry "One Man Show" Reid.

CUDA wrote:

callmeslick wrote: Sadly, they only seem able to try and derail the one plan that DID get passed.

NAH I think the democrats **** that one up all on their lonesome

so, filibustering most of the ideas that would have gotten more coverage, and then working for 4 years to strip any auxillary funding counts as 'all the Dems fault'? How partisan of you.

THEY promised to cover the 30 million uninsured. yet we will still have 30 million uninsured once they law is fully implemented. They lied.

and, so do you, as the law, when fully implemented, will cut the number in half, to around 14 million.

THEY promised that rates would not go up.yet they are going up in every state but 2. They lied

you do again.....they promised that the rate of increases in price would slow. And, they did. Also, your bogus number includes price rises for policies that offer more benefits compared to the previous policies. Once again, you choose partisan rhetoric over real facts. Who's lying, again?

THEY promised that you could keep your own insurance if you liked it. But 5 million people so far have found out you cannot. They lied

admittedly, here, they failed to account for the law's regulations about 'substandard' policies.

Nah. Cant blame the Republicans on this one. Not one of them voted for it. And they warned the democrats about the problems with the law and tried to pass legislation to amend it, and every time it was voted down by the Democrats and unanimously to boot.

they haven't tried to 'amend' a damn thing. They've offered amendments that would kill it, and offered NOTHING whatsoever of a positive nature to address the issues that the law addresses. Things like middle aged people being denied coverage, lack of accountablity for price increases, 'preexisting condition' surcharges, etc, etc, etc.

Nope cant blame the republicans for this fiasco. Keep trying though.

what I was blaming the GOP for above, and still do, is NOT PROPOSING ANYTHING, beyond a clearly substandard status-quo. And, partisans like yourself keep dancing like Fred Astaire around that charge with blather such as what you responded with today. Why? Because, just maybe, you know I'm right?

admittedly, here, they failed to account for the law's regulations about 'substandard' policies.

this is a pure unadulterated partisan bulllshit lie on your part and the administrations designed by them and parroted by you to cover up a MAJOR ★■◆●-up and a known and intentional lie on their part. the President's PROMISE was "if you like your insurance policy you can keep your insurance policy". he said that to get buy in by the public and the Democratic Congress, and you know it. this law would not have passed Congress if the populace and the Democrats knew what was in the law and you know it. stop being a stooge for your party. the President never said a word about ANYTHING substandard. INTENTIONALLY. and you know it.

and who has the right to determine what is substandard for MYneeds? currently my deductible and co-pay have gone up so much because of this new insurance it has effectually become nothing more then catastrophic medical insurance. that doesn't fit my needs. and I have a Gold Policy through work.

I'm at work right now so I don't have the time at the moment to address all your other bull★■◆● partisan distortions, but I will. I've been lied to enough about this insurance and your not going to add to it by parroting the Democrats talking points and your inability to think truthfully on your own about this subject. you go out of your way to call those that oppose this legislation as partisan. interestingly I can dial up Nancy Pelosi / Harry Reid / President Obama talking points and remarkably they are word for word what you say. kind of funny how that works for a declared centrist

CUDA wrote:
and who has the right to determine what is substandard for MYneeds?

the same government that currently decides what vehicles are safe enough for you to drive, what food is safe enough for you to eat, what medicines are safe enough for you to take......just to name a few.

currently my deductible and co-pay have gone up so much because of this new insurance it has effectually become nothing more then catastrophic medical insurance. that doesn't fit my needs. and I have a Gold Policy through work. ['quote]
don't blame the ACA for that, the issue is with your gouging insurance company. Of course, had the GOP allowed for a public option, and forced the hand of the private insurers, stuff like this might not happen. However, stuff like this HAS been happening for like,20 years, in the private sector, and if you want to be honest, you damn well know it. Oh, and if deductable is more than $3000, and copay more than $40 per visit, that is NOT a gold plan you have.....

I'm at work right now so I don't have the time at the moment to address all your other **** partisan distortions, but I will. I've been lied to enough about this insurance and your not going to add to it by parroting the Democrats talking points and your inability to think truthfully on your own about this subject. you go out of your way to call those that oppose this legislation as partisan. interestingly I can dial up Nancy Pelosi / Harry Reid / President Obama talking points and remarkably they are word for word what you say. kind of funny how that works for a declared centrist

get mad at me all you want, big guy.....I can take it(I'm in a jolly mood after a few days at the beach). The true villans here are, and always have been, the for-profit insurance companies. They have driven the costs of insurance and care up at the grail of profit. Something has to be done to address this, and you can yell about 'Democrat talking points'(mine aren't, by the way), and whatever else you wish to blame, but so long as you avoid the real issue, you will continue to allow yourself to be victimized. Try as you will, the points I made above are correct. They are nobodies talking points. They are the freaking facts.