DescentBB

tunnelcat wrote:OK, I'll try a different tack Spidey. What if the armed militia was a bunch of Black Panthers wanting the exact same thing the current occupiers want, freedom to use the land as they see fit? What do you suppose the authority's reaction would be then? I can guarantee you that there would be a much more aggressive response by either the feds or the local authorities and shooting be damned. But instead, the authorities are pussyfooting around these bastards, afraid of some sort of Waco-style anti-government freakout by every gun owning white male in the U.S. Wussies.

I really don't see that happening, though, TC, because there isn't much of an opportunity for looting here, and the temperatures are absolutely prohibitive. (sorry, in this case it's just too fun to be racist)

But seriously, I think you're overlooking some of the nuances of the situation which create the climate which you feel is unfair in this instance. A) They've taken over a building in the middle of nowhere with no hostages. B} There is no great destruction of property. C) There is no impending tragedy due to their occupation. D) They actually need and don't have the support of the local authorities for their mischief to gain the traction it needs.

It's true that since the Federal Government went through Waco, there is going to be public pressure felt against a repeat, and this may be where similarities of any kind do contribute (white, religious, ...). Maybe not so much if it were a situation that did not so call to mind ugly past atrocities. There is also a significant difference between using force against a group of Black Panthers and triggering a nation-wide looting spree (weather permitting ), and using force against a group of cowboys and triggering armed, anti-Federal Government insurrection, possibly leading to civil war. EDIT: I'm not saying this ought to color the right course of action, but it certainly should call for more prudence than angry internet heads and reality TV buffs are fielding.

I'm reminded of the scene in Talledega Nights where Ricky Bobby says "with all due respect..."

Since the topic is Black Panthers (TC's), and looters (mine--association drawn with Black Panthers), I think all due respect has been given. I have absolutely no respect for either.

tunnelcat wrote:OK, I'll try a different tack Spidey. What if the armed militia was a bunch of Black Panthers wanting the exact same thing the current occupiers want, freedom to use the land as they see fit? What do you suppose the authority's reaction would be then? I can guarantee you that there would be a much more aggressive response by either the feds or the local authorities and shooting be damned. But instead, the authorities are pussyfooting around these bastards, afraid of some sort of Waco-style anti-government freakout by every gun owning white male in the U.S. Wussies.

How about some Black Panthers standing outside a polling station and intimidating voters. Did you see any arrests made? Did you see the racist Eric Holder bring federal charges against them? No? I suggest you rethink your statement.

Since the topic is Black Panthers (TC's), and looters (mine--association drawn with Black Panthers), I think all due respect has been given. I have absolutely no respect for either.

The Black Panthers were associated with looting?

We're talking a hypothetical situation here, Vander. I was suggesting that looters would take to the streets if the Black Panthers got out of line and were violently put down by the government in TC's role reversal.

EDIT: I did equate Black Panthers with looters in the one-liner at the start of my post, but that was more of a humorous generalization.

#RobotLivesMatter

Sergeant Thorne wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:OK, I'll try a different tack Spidey. What if the armed militia was a bunch of Black Panthers wanting the exact same thing the current occupiers want, freedom to use the land as they see fit? What do you suppose the authority's reaction would be then? I can guarantee you that there would be a much more aggressive response by either the feds or the local authorities and shooting be damned. But instead, the authorities are pussyfooting around these bastards, afraid of some sort of Waco-style anti-government freakout by every gun owning white male in the U.S. Wussies.

I really don't see that happening, though, TC, because there isn't much of an opportunity for looting here, and the temperatures are absolutely prohibitive. (sorry, in this case it's just too fun to be racist)

But seriously, I think you're overlooking some of the nuances of the situation which create the climate which you feel is unfair in this instance. A) They've taken over a building in the middle of nowhere with no hostages. B} There is no great destruction of property. C) There is no impending tragedy due to their occupation. D) They actually need and don't have the support of the local authorities for their mischief to gain the traction it needs.

It's true that since the Federal Government went through Waco, there is going to be public pressure felt against a repeat, and this may be where similarities of any kind do contribute (white, religious, ...). Maybe not so much if it were a situation that did not so call to mind ugly past atrocities. There is also a significant difference between using force against a group of Black Panthers and triggering a nation-wide looting spree (weather permitting ), and using force against a group of cowboys and triggering armed, anti-Federal Government insurrection, possibly leading to civil war. EDIT: I'm not saying this ought to color the right course of action, but it certainly should call for more prudence than angry internet heads and reality TV buffs are fielding.

Uh, they have started vandalizing things, like removing signs and tearing down fences so that a neighboring rancher can take and use land as he sees fit, land that belongs to all of us. Now it's going to cost you and I money to fix once these morons either leave, or are forced out. Plus, on the law enforcement and people's side, counter protesters are also arriving and making their voices heard. Good for them.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/12/us/or ... index.html

This is interesting information too, about the economics of ranching and public lands in the West.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... wasn-t-won

Sergeant Thorne wrote:We're talking a hypothetical situation here, Vander. I was suggesting that looters would take to the streets if the Black Panthers got out of line and were violently put down by the government in TC's role reversal.

Your probably correct, just as a bunch of white militia would come out in force if Bundy and his crew were to get killed by law enforcement in some shootout. But my first question is, how quickly would these guys be forced out of their protest by law enforcement if they were black militants? How long would the feds or local law enforcement allow this to drag on before attempting arrests? I'm guessing there would be a much quicker resolution of the situation than we're getting now. There's no question of what would happen afterwords, well all know violence would ensue.

ST, the LDS Church has come out and condemned Bundy's militia takeover as well. Covering their butts I see.

http://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-c ... n-building

woodchip wrote:How about some Black Panthers standing outside a polling station and intimidating voters. Did you see any arrests made? Did you see the racist Eric Holder bring federal charges against them? No? I suggest you rethink your statement.

Have you seen anyone from Diebold being thrown in jail for fraud surrounding their electronic voting machines? Sure, they got fined, but that's nothing to a multinational company worth billions. Before you gripe about partisan BS, both parties were affected by the fraud, not just one party, because both sides will cheat when the opportunity arises. Come to think of it, have you seen any mass arrests from those big banking concerns and charged for causing the 2008 housing meltdown? Nope.

http://disinfo.com/2013/10/voting-machi ... l-conduct/

woodchip wrote: How about some Black Panthers standing outside a polling station and intimidating voters. Did you see any arrests made? Did you see the racist Eric Holder bring federal charges against them? No? I suggest you rethink your statement.

you keep coming back to this, periodically. It was two guys, no voters reported intimidation. The only 'report' was filed by a conservative group from out of town. DESPITE THIS, it was investigated by DOJ. Yet, you persist in calling the former AG a racist? [removed - keep it professional]

So while you try to mitigate the case, let me refresh your aging brain cells:

"Two members of the New Black Panther party, Minister King Samir Shabazz, and Jerry Jackson, stood in front of the entrance to the polling station in uniforms that have been described as military or paramilitary.[2][3][4] Minister King Shabazz carried a billy club, and is reported to have pointed it at voters while both men shouted racial slurs,[5] including phrases such as "white devil" and "you're about to be ruled by the black man, cracker."[6]"

Still don't think they were intimidating voters? Lets see what a poll watcher has to say:

"In April 2009 Bartle Bull, a former civil rights lawyer who was serving as a poll watcher at the polling station where the incident occurred, submitted an affidavit at the Department of Justice's request supporting the lawsuit, stating that he considered it to have been the most severe instance of voter intimidation he had ever encountered."

So once again you spew nonsense and expect us to believe it as fact.

citing the testimony of a GOP poll watcher is sort of lame. Here is what the legal review professionals concluded. Note, especially, their words that "there was never any evidence presented of ANY voters being intimidated"


http://electionlawblog.org/?p=20253

Wow, a blog. Nice try slick.

woodchip wrote:Wow, a blog. Nice try slick.

a legal blog. For lawyers. For lawyers that work in voting law. Citing a professional analysis, which is noted in the body of the article you likely didn't bother to read, that is linked, and concludes that not one citizen voter from the district came forward with any evidence nor complaint of intimidation. The person you quoted was a REPUBLICAN poll worker.

I'll take Bartle Bulls comments over your lawyers blog. Also the Civil Rights Division was looking into until after Obama appointee Loretta King over rode the pending default verdict:

In April 2009 Bartle Bull, a former civil rights lawyer who was serving as a poll watcher at the polling station where the incident occurred, submitted an affidavit at the Department of Justice's request supporting the lawsuit, stating that he considered it to have been the most severe instance of voter intimidation he had ever encountered.[2][5] When none of the defendants who were charged appeared in court to answer the charges, the career attorneys pursuing the lawsuit assumed that they would win it by default. However the move to pursue a default judgment was overruled by two of their line superiors, Loretta King, who was acting Assistant Attorney General, and Steve Rosenbaum, Acting Deputy Assistant Attorney General.[3]

Of course your arm chair blog lawyers probably saw it different from what reality was.

the lawyers clearly detailed errors in explaining and handling the case, but concluded that no one was intimidated, despite the GOP attempt at hysteria. You have to understand, once again, the 'cry wolf' factor your side has created, with constant histrionics.

Golly gee slick, did you take your slow pills when responding? There was no errors in handling the case as it was a simple default judgement because none of the BP's showed up in court. Or it should of been until the racist DOJ stepped in. Stop reading blogs as they will confuse you and try to stick to the facts.

I’m sure those nice young men were just handing out flyers.

woodchip wrote:Golly gee slick, did you take your slow pills when responding? There was no errors in handling the case as it was a simple default judgement because none of the BP's showed up in court. Or it should of been until the racist DOJ stepped in. Stop reading blogs as they will confuse you and try to stick to the facts.

the legal eagles suggested they could have handled the default judgement, and/or explained it, better. Attacking me doesn't make you start to make sense.

Fan mail.....NOT.

[youtube]_sXnZxiJjGw[/youtube]

Finally, action by the FBI. Bundy and his brother, along with a couple of others were arrested following a traffic stop tonight. One of the protesters was killed, but they haven't said who it was, so someone apparently started shooting at the FBI during the stop. The idiots were stupid enough to try and drive to some community meeting miles away in the town of John Day and the FBI pounced. I'm sure we'll know more details by tomorrow. Apparently, the rest of the group is still holed up at the refuge and the FBI is setting up a perimeter.

http://news.yahoo.com/leader-oregon-wil ... 44320.html

News report here says the protestors came out of their cars with their hands up. Seems overly excitable cops opened fire. So will this turn into another Furguson "hands up don't shoot"?

woodchip wrote:News report here says the protestors came out of their cars with their hands up. Seems overly excitable cops opened fire. So will this turn into another Furguson "hands up don't shoot"?

seems? Let's wait for the details from legitimate sources. Maybe there is dash-cam video? Either way, ★■◆● with the government and try to overrun the People's Lands, you pay the price. No tears here.

woodchip wrote:News report here says the protestors came out of their cars with their hands up. Seems overly excitable cops opened fire. So will this turn into another Furguson "hands up don't shoot"?

It looks like both local and federal authorities were involved in the traffic stop, so we don't know who from what agency shot the one protester. As for that guy holding up his hands and then getting shot is probably a bunch of BS spilled to the press by his grieving daughter. She wasn't there as a witness to the shooting so she should keep her inflammatory opinions to herself until the investigation is complete. Don't assume the police were overly excitable, it was probably the protester who was overly excitable, not the police. Personally, although it's sad, anyone who got killed brought it on themselves. You can't take over federal property, face down the cops with pistols, rifles and assault rifles and flip the bird at them and expect to not get shot at.

Besides, all these guys wanted to be martyrs if things went south so as to rile up more of these militia nutcases. They were all armed to the teeth looking for bear too. I'll just bet the one guy decided to take on the cops and pointed his weapon at the cops first from his truck. You know that the FBI has been handling these guys with kid gloves for weeks. Why shoot first and ask questions later if they were trying to be careful to not create another Waco? I'd say the authorities were being extremely cautious amid calls by a lot of Oregonians to end this whole thing soon. Oregonians were getting sick and tired of the whole thing and the locals wanted these militia members to leave, whether they agreed with their cause or not. Plus, it looks like there was dash cam and body cam footage of the arrest judging from local news footage. Hopefully the authorities will release enough of that footage to show who shot first and not be stupid enough to alter or censor that footage.

Tell me tc, did you explain in depth the shooting of the gentle giant like you are doing now in defense of the cops? The witness I heard was male so not the daughter. Also remember there are millions of people who think the giant really did have his hands up when shot. Same Wil happen here unless there is very good video (which can easily be negated as being labeled "edited". See slick, 2 sides can play this game). What worries me now are the really far right will take up the cause with some rally disastrous results.

Cop shoots white guy…must be the white guys fault.

Cop shoots black guy…must be the cops fault.

Cops shoot black guy who's unarmed and not attacking in many cases, it's the cop's fault.

Cops shoot white guy armed with rifle and who in all probability pointed it at them during his last stand and who claimed he would never go to jail alive for breaking the law, it's the white guy's fault.

Robert Finicum wrote:"This is where I'm going to breathe my last breath, whether I'm 90, 95 or 55...."

http://news.yahoo.com/arrests-oregon-st ... 33108.html

woodchip, give me a link to your male witness. The authorities have been pretty tight lipped so far. The only quotes I've heard from any local news sites, with the exception of FOX News, were from Finicum's daughter. By the way, the left is getting really sick of these far right greedy lawbreaking white militia nutbags. Lefties can take a stand and fight for what they think is "right" too.

Conflicting reports:

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/eyewitn ... -hands-up/

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/eyewitn ... -hands-up/

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... -shooting/

Edit: Note...Mr McConnell did not see the incident but is relying on what others said.

Woody....I'm sure he IS relying on what he was told.

Seems that Ammon told everybody to go home, now, peacefully. His lawyer said that, tonight.

tunnelcat wrote:She wasn't there as a witness to the shooting so she should keep her inflammatory opinions to herself until the investigation is complete.


I'll just bet the one guy decided to take on the cops and pointed his weapon at the cops first from his truck.

What I like is how some of these guys are now bitching about having wanted a "peaceful resolution" and not being the ones who first pointed guns. Um...you people took over federal property while armed to the teeth. Get bent.

I remember a Occupy Wall Street'er who was armed with a anus and unloaded on a cop car. He never did get arrested. I guess if you are left wing you are safe from the cops.

Spidey wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:She wasn't there as a witness to the shooting so she should keep her inflammatory opinions to herself until the investigation is complete.


I'll just bet the one guy decided to take on the cops and pointed his weapon at the cops first from his truck.

Well Spidey, the county sheriff let slip in an interview on our local news today that after Mr. Finicum commandeered a truck after the traffic stop, he then crashed it into a snowbank as he tried to flee from the police. He proceeded to jump out of the disabled truck with rifle in hand, and charge towards the officers. Sounds like he wanted to do a suicide by cop and become a martyr if you ask me. That same sheriff tearfully pleaded for the remaining occupiers to please go home and put a stop to all this nonsense. Some, not all, have apparently have left, unhindered by the authorities by the way.

Top Gun wrote:What I like is how some of these guys are now bitching about having wanted a "peaceful resolution" and not being the ones who first pointed guns. Um...you people took over federal property while armed to the teeth. Get bent.

yeah exactly. it's like they don't want the government in any affairs but when they know they're going to lose, they want the government.

woodchip wrote:I remember a Occupy Wall Street'er who was armed with a anus and unloaded on a cop car. He never did get arrested. I guess if you are left wing you are safe from the cops.

that has to be some serious unloading to be any sort of threat to life.

tunnelcat wrote:

Spidey wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:She wasn't there as a witness to the shooting so she should keep her inflammatory opinions to herself until the investigation is complete.


I'll just bet the one guy decided to take on the cops and pointed his weapon at the cops first from his truck.

Well Spidey, the county sheriff let slip in an interview on our local news today that after Mr. Finicum commandeered a truck after the traffic stop, he then crashed it into a snowbank as he tried to flee from the police. He proceeded to jump out of the disabled truck with rifle in hand, and charge towards the officers. Sounds like he wanted to do a suicide by cop and become a martyr if you ask me. That same sheriff tearfully pleaded for the remaining occupiers to please go home and put a stop to all this nonsense. Some, not all, have apparently have left, unhindered by the authorities by the way.

Assuming you were correct….doesn’t change the fact that you did exactly what you criticized somebody else for.

In the same post no less.

If the cry baby sheriff wanted them to go home he shouldn't of set up road blocks. Now the rest of them will wonder if they will get shot also.

woodchip wrote:If the cry baby sheriff wanted them to go home he shouldn't of set up road blocks. Now the rest of them will wonder if they will get shot also.

problems with law enforcement, eh? Why is he a 'crybaby'? Why the hell shoudn't they have been rounded up immediately anyway?
At any rate, they are now all slinking out, save 5 holdouts. Some arrested, most given a free bag of Cheeze Puffs and sent packing. Big freaking deal.
Not exactly the revolution at hand.

so, now we have video and the truth. Not only did the 'patriot' in question NOT come out with hands raised, he tried a high speed escape in his truck, nearly ran over an FBI agent and then jumped out reaching into his pocket where he had a loaded gun. Not a cell phone, not a pocket knife, not a toy gun, a loaded weapon. He's dead now. Darwinism at work.
Moreover, it illustrates what we see on this board nearly daily. Woodchip lives in a fantasy world where facts are replaced with 'someone said' with the 'someone' seemingly ALWAYS some extremist, right wing site.

I seem to remember you denying the facts of the Ferguson shooting. So whats your point slick?

woodchip wrote:I seem to remember you denying the facts of the Ferguson shooting. So whats your point slick?

go back and read the archives. I merely suggested restraint in the narrative. Further, nothing EVER emerged that justified shooting that kid to death. NOTHING. Nice dodge around your flagrant lie above about this incident. More smokescreens?