DescentBB

Well said Kilarin. Thank you.

Spidey, everyone has their boogeyman. I'm quite sure you have one of your own, but would never say who or what that is. You already know who's mine.

I tend view "Christian Nationalism" as just part of the American fascist milieu. In a predominantly Christian environment, it seems obvious that fascists would wrap themselves in the Christian aesthetic, cynical or not, to gain power. The only reason I'd give them extra consideration over and above the average fascist is the infrastructure and organization they may be able to draw upon is more ingrained at a grass roots level.

spidey wrote:The Boogeyman is dead...long live the new Boogeyman.

Are you implying that Christian Nationalism isn't a real threat in the USA? Or am I misunderstanding?

I'm implying that is an over hyped threat, just like all of the other Boogeymen over the years.

How long until we have people worshiping an Artificial General Intelligence sever? It just needs to make people feel good and give guidance and ask for money and bam... mega church

Thou Shalt Worship the Master Control Program or be derezzed as punishment.

Spidey wrote:I'm implying that is an over hyped threat, just like all of the other Boogeymen over the years.

We have multiple people in congress who have openly proclaimed themselves to be Christian Nationalists.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/27/opinions ... index.html
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3540 ... overnment/

The Texas Senate just passed a bill requiring all schools to display the 10 commandments https://www.texastribune.org/2023/04/20 ... ents-bill/

A recent poll found that more than half of Republicans believe the country should be a strictly Christian nation https://www.npr.org/2023/02/14/11566425 ... to-a-new-s
ignoring party affiliation 10% of American's openly support Christian Nationalism, and another 19% sympathize with it's views. That is getting startlingly close to a third of our nation. Some other polls have come up with much higher numbers than these.

Many Christian Pastors in America are openly espousing Christian Nationalism: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63902626

Christian Nationalists are gaining power, and they want more. They have no interest or respect for democracy or voting rights. They consider violence a sacrament. They have managed to disconnect themselves from truth and live in a world of "alternate facts" completely disconnected from reality.

Sometime there really is a monster under the bed. Sometimes the boogeyman is real.

Mentioning Boebert and Greene...major loss of credibility.
npr...more loss of credibility.
BBC...welp there goes the last shred.

But seriously, when the Christian Nationalist take over the country, will we get to choose which sect of the cult we have to join.

Maybe Kilarin can clarify here, but isn't it mostly Evangelicals and Baptists driving this nationalism? Both those "sects" believe they are the "true" belivers of Christianity and all others are heretical. I certainly got that from my Evangelical sister.

Spidey wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 8:33 am Mentioning Boebert and Greene...major loss of credibility.
npr...more loss of credibility.
BBC...welp there goes the last shred.

This comment is disturbing. This is woodchip level stupidity.

Spidey wrote:Mentioning Boebert and Greene...major loss of credibility.

I said they were members of congress. That fact is not disputed, right?
And I said they both had openly declared themselves as Christian Nationalists. How am I supposed to do that reliably without linking to their quotes?
I'm not certain what your objection here is.

Spidey wrote:npr...more loss of credibility.
BBC...welp there goes the last shred.

I can find other sources if you prefer. I mean, npr is left of center, BBC is center (basing this on https://www.allsides.com/media-bias ) NPR is generally considered to be reliable, and BBC is usually in the top 5 of most reliable news sources in lists I could find.
I don't trust any news source 100%, but did you actually find anything in the reports that was inaccurate?

I certainly agree that it is very important to validate your sources. But other than "I don't like those sources" was there anything I posted that you actually have evidence was not factual?

Tunnelcat wrote:isn't it mostly Evangelicals and Baptists driving this nationalism? Both those "sects" believe they are the "true" believers of Christianity and all others are heretical.

Believing you are right and everyone else is wrong is pretty universal, even outside of religion.
Evangelicals are the primary driving force. BUT, they are by no means alone. There is a lot of support for this movement among Catholics, Mormons, and I even see it in my protestant church. Which terrifies me.

You lose credibility points when you mention Boebert and Greene because those are the two crazy attention whores that say everything and anything to stay in the spotlight. Quoting them is like quoting that liar guy from Saturday Night Live.

The rejected sources part of the list was just an off the cuff remark because I don't really take anybody's concerns about Christian Nationals taking over the country seriously, let alone those particular two, and I needed two more to make a list. And no, I didn't actually need to read them because I have heard it all before.

You didn't answer my question, and I know why...it's because the idea that Christians are going to change the 1st and take over is absurd and nobody can answer what it would mean if they did, including Christian Nationals.

Seriously, what the hell would it even mean to become a Christain country? Please spell it out for me.

Kilarin wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:32 amBelieving you are right and everyone else is wrong is pretty universal, even outside of religion.
Evangelicals are the primary driving force. BUT, they are by no means alone. There is a lot of support for this movement among Catholics, Mormons, and I even see it in my protestant church. Which terrifies me.

Which begs the question, could they ever unite and overlook their differences to push a nationalist agenda? I know the Mormons are definitely thought of a as cult by most mainstream Christians and the Evangelicals don't like the Mother Mary worshipping Catholics. The groups have hard disagreements over scripture in the Bible and church doctrine. Hell, the Irish Catholics and Protestants violently fought each other for years over these petty differences, so it's not a stretch that it could happen here in the states too. The question is can they overlook those differences to work in concert and force an abolishment of the First Amendment and create a Christian government? I think the desire to abolish the FBI is part of the plan, to stop any investigations and convictions of domestic terrorists, who are made up of mostly white militias and Christians right now. The leader of the Proud Boys was just convicted of sedition, which is rare.

My sister complained about the liberals taking away her rights, most of which she was spoon fed from Tucker Carlson and others at Fox News. I never got her to name which "rights" were being infringed upon, but I assume they line up with the hate propaganda Fox News and other far right news outlets espouse day in and day out, news from Christian sources, their church pastors and leaders they listen to every Sunday and the few nutcases in the current Republican Party. The unifying desires are White dominance, paternalistic rule, fear of immigrants, racism, repression of LGBTQ Americans and absolute gun rights without exceptions, the latter which is a strange bedfellow for worshippers of Jesus.

Spidey wrote:You didn't answer my question, and I know why

Spidey wrote:But seriously, when the Christian Nationalist take over the country, will we get to choose which sect of the cult we have to join.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were serious.
Historically, when religion intermingles with the government, choice goes out the window.

Spidey wrote:Seriously, what the hell would it even mean to become a Christain country? Please spell it out for me.

It would mean religious legislation. Persecution of anyone who doesn't tow the line. You are seeing the beginnings of it right now.

You seem to think this highly improbable. But before 2016 I would have said that Trump getting elected was highly improbable. But it not only happened, but he is leading in their polls right now to run again. In a world where that can happen, anything can happen.

Tunnelcat wrote:could they ever unite and overlook their differences to push a nationalist agenda?

They united over abortion, and got a lot of what they wanted accomplished.
A very important thing to remember here is that the Christian Nationalist movement is not really about Christianity. It's about hate, and anger, and power. If you quiz these people about their beliefs, the vast majority of them have rarely if ever read a bible. Most of them can't explain the basics of their religion. BUT, they can tell you about how Hillary was selling children in a pizza parlor, and the transgenders have been raping kids in all the public bathrooms, and they hate Biden because... well... just because.

A significant portion of them that have just been so isolated in their silos that they have no idea what truth is anymore.
A kind little old lady at my church told me how much she liked Trump. I started to talk to her, and just gave up. Because I realized that I could even quote Trump in the presence of this gentle old soul, because I couldn't make myself use that kind of language in front of her. When a man who is the exact opposite of everything Christ preached is being touted as the Great Christian Savior, well, it's just insane. It's like going to the Sierra club and finding them all enthusiastically cheering on the CEO of Exxon as their new president.

Yes, they can unite. Because what is drawing them together is NOT religion, it is a desire to force all of their "enemies" to comply. Will they stay united? Of course not. Once they get power, the beast will start eating itself. Fascism always does.

Tunnelcat wrote:My sister complained about the liberals taking away her rights

Usually they mean their right to force their own opinions on someone else.

Spidey wrote:You lose credibility points when you mention Boebert and Greene because those are the two crazy attention whores that say everything and anything to stay in the spotlight. Quoting them is like quoting that liar guy from Saturday Night Live.

Crazy or not, they have actual power and it's growing, not shrinking. Greene appears to have some political savy, more than Boebert anyways, and has become somewhat of a power broker after being a key to getting McCarthy over the finish line as Speaker. You can call them fringe, but they're dragging the mainstream of the GOP closer and closer to them.

Spidey wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 12:33 pm Seriously, what the hell would it even mean to become a Christain country? Please spell it out for me.

They get more cover/justification/validation/mainstreaming for their hate and bigotry. Basically they can declare <oppressed minority group> is not christian or are against christian values, which is why it is correct and good for them to murder said <oppressed minority group>.

And the crazies like MTG do matter, because it is fairly likely they will be re-elected, which means a majority in their home districts think like they do or support their policies.

State sanctioned murder of minority groups.

Ooooookay

Spidey wrote:State sanctioned murder of minority groups.

Yep.
You've already seen various members of the right calling for the outright execution of those who are transgender or homosexual. Are they mainstream? Not yet. But they are growing.
You've seen the way these people treat Muslims. That's not even a small group.

Ya know, when I asked that question, I expected answers like...

Nationwide ban on abortion.
Required prayer in public schools.

And even something more radical such as the deportation of Muslims.

But noooo, straight to mass murder.

No wonder you're scared...now go hide under your bed.

It is a thing that literally happens in many parts of the world to this day, thinking it won't happen here is burying your head in the sand. In living memory here in America minorities have been killed for even less robust reasons. Like you know why conservatives in Florida are revising history and waging a culture war against CRT? Because objective history and CRT air their dirty laundry including murdering minorities for petty or straight up fabricated justifications.

I never bury my head in the sand...I just don't overreact to every perceived danger anymore.

There was a time when I did, but not anymore.

It's either in the sand or up your own ass at this point.

Shut up and go have another bag of Doritos.

Kilarin wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 1:51 pmand they hate Biden because... well... just because.

I recently overheard someone in public ranting about how Biden was an 'extreme far left socialist' who was trying to take away everyone's rights and money and create an 'elite ruling cabal' because he hated America or something.

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 1:16 pm Thou Shalt Worship the Master Control Program or be derezzed as punishment.

Spidey wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 7:11 pm I never bury my head in the sand...I just don't overreact to every perceived danger anymore.

There was a time when I did, but not anymore.

You may be the exception, but there are a lot of Americans being slowing conditioned to hate a minority as a convenient and normal part of life. It's like a cancer, it spreads slowly in hidden back rooms, or in this case local churches, until one day it's generates so much background noise, it's normalized. All it takes is a leader willing to leverage that hate for his or her own benefit to make it spread like wildfire in our country. DeSantis is a prime example of a leader normalizing hate within Florida. He's got the state of Florida practically worshiping the very ground he stands on like some savior.Trump or any other current Republican would not hesitate to use that same tactic to regain power, then continue that hate just to keep the power. Trump has already normalized sedition, white supremacy and misogyny, so I see him jumping on the hate trans bandwagon in his attempt to win back office. Remember, our country by now has pretty much lost the middle class and a LOT of people are suffering financially, with housing and food security, so they're pissed off. Pissed off people crave a leader who will fix their problems. Blame trans people, CRT and immigrants for ruining society and the public schools and that leader automatically has be BIG audience craving more of the same.

65% of Americans identify as Christian. That's a very large percentage. Only 1.6% if the population identifies as gender non-conforming, so we're a convenient minority to attack because we won't ever affect the voting block. So all these faithful sit in church on Saturdays and Sundays listening to their leaders, plus their fellow like minded parishioners on the weekdays and the same theme keeps coming up, trans people are sinners and evil and something must be done about it. How long before they reach the point that wiping them out is a viable "solution"? Kilarin has already noted the poison rhetoric being normalized within his own church. He's the only person I've heard that said it actually scares him. So the question is, how many of these faithful have the smarts to see through the hate as nothing but political rhetoric? Most people of faith put their full trust in their church leader, so what that leader says will always be the gospel truth when they speak, so of course, they will unquestioningly follow it.

Look at Hitler. He hated the Jews from an early age. I heard some history that he hated Jews all because one Jew looked at him funny in a public park during his youth and he forever held a grudge. Once he got into power, he began his revenge with the "Final Solution". He managed to kill 6 million European Jews and he did that by getting his people behind him to do it. Granted, most of the German populace had no idea what exactly the "Final Solution" entailed, but all they knew was that their leader was taking care of the Jewish problem and all was good. So it's no stretch for some American leader to take care of the "trans problem" the same way.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 180961387/

Spidey wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 6:01 pmBut noooo, straight to mass murder.

Don't let the hyperbole stop you from using your brain (difficult for you I know). When laws are applied unequally due to a victim's gender, race, or religion, then that is essentially state sanctioned violence. It doesn't have to be written into law, the legal protections just need to be missing. See also: Gay Panic Defense

Why do you guys keep lecturing me with stuff I already know, my point is simply that I don't give half a chance in hell to Christian Nationals taking over the country.

Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think the RWDS would agree with you.

https://heavy.com/news/mauricio-garcia- ... quad-rwds/

And I'm willing to bet this was done on purpose.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/07/us/brown ... index.html

Then you've got this:

https://news.yahoo.com/praying-for-arma ... 58689.html

1/3 of the country wants to eradicate another 1/3 of the country, and the other 1/3 of the country is mostly indifferent to it. Which are you?

I have no desire to eliminate anyone and I'm certainly not indifferent to all the hate and senseless killing. But I think it's too much to hope for on my part to believe people will quit being self-centered assholes and show some respect for their fellow humans no matter who they are. But given human nature, we're probably all screwed as a species and won't outlast our own base vileness, so I'm glad I'm old and on my last legs and won't be around for the coming bull★■◆●. It's too bad there aren't more Christians like Kilarin, to speak up and denounce the nonsense being promulgated by the supposed followers of Jesus.

Tunnelcat wrote:It's too bad there aren't more Christians like Kilarin

Don't give me any credit. I've always been an outlier in any group.

And, also, I think it's important to remember that the problem here isn't actually Christianity, it's Humanity.
Let me be clear, Christianity is obviously a major problem right now. It is the focal point. But if you eliminated Christianity, some other religion would attract these same people and become the oppressor.
And the problem isn't religion. We tried removing Religion, and the result was that humans were still humans. The French Revolution, Communist Russia and China, these places tried to find a Utopia by eliminating Religion, and discovered that humans will ALWAYS find some way to oppress and abuse each other. Take away the current excuse, and they will just find another one.
Trying to fix this kind of problem by eliminating Religion is like trying to fix discrimination by eliminating race. There was an island where all the people looked pretty much alike. They started a war between the people with detached earlobes and the people with attached earlobes.

So, like I said, there is no question that Religion is a focal point for hatred. If you eliminated it, people would oppress and kill each other over politics, accent, clothing styles, or their favorite sports team. And it would probably be the same people rallying behind the movement. The problem is a human one.

Kilarin wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 9:44 am

Tunnelcat wrote:It's too bad there aren't more Christians like Kilarin

Don't give me any credit. I've always been an outlier in any group.

And, also, I think it's important to remember that the problem here isn't actually Christianity, it's Humanity.
Let me be clear, Christianity is obviously a major problem right now. It is the focal point. But if you eliminated Christianity, some other religion would attract these same people and become the oppressor.
And the problem isn't religion. We tried removing Religion, and the result was that humans were still humans. The French Revolution, Communist Russia and China, these places tried to find a Utopia by eliminating Religion, and discovered that humans will ALWAYS find some way to oppress and abuse each other. Take away the current excuse, and they will just find another one.
Trying to fix this kind of problem by eliminating Religion is like trying to fix discrimination by eliminating race. There was an island where all the people looked pretty much alike. They started a war between the people with detached earlobes and the people with attached earlobes.

So, like I said, there is no question that Religion is a focal point for hatred. If you eliminated it, people would oppress and kill each other over politics, accent, clothing styles, or their favorite sports team. And it would probably be the same people rallying behind the movement. The problem is a human one.

Well said. Humanity is doomed.

I agree. Humanity never changes or rises above its most basic instincts, violence and tribalism. It probably never will either. I don't "hate" religion or Christians. But I hate that the religion based on the teachings of an absolute peace loving prophet has completely forgotten or ignored those principles in their tribalistic quest of hate and power. But you'll have to concede that the Bible itself is used to justify that hate. What's sad is that a Biblical translation error in 1946 is now some of the basis for that non-binary gender hate. That hate is so ingrained that most Biblical absolutist Christians refuse to believe it, including my sister. It's almost as if they WANT to find a reason to hate, even if it flies in the face of logic or the teachings of Jesus.

I had the usual Jehovah's Witness door knockers come by yesterday. I was polite and told them I wasn't interested. I could've yelled at them in a blue storm, but I didn't. Why? Because, they delt with nationalistc hate decades ago. They went through what LGBTQ people are going through now, with that tired old nationalistic Christian absolutism attacking their beliefs. If you read up on their history, you'll find that they were violently oppressed in the 1940's, the men even castrated, all because they refused to salute the American flag. How stupid is that? And yet, it's rearing it's ugly head all over again with the current Christian Nationalism. One can love their country without having to salute the flag, but not according to the Neo Nazis running around now.

CDN_Merlin wrote:Humanity is doomed.

Tunnelcat wrote:I hate that the religion based on the teachings of an absolute peace loving prophet has completely forgotten or ignored those principles in their tribalistic quest of hate and power.

So very sadly true. <sigh>

Tunnelcat wrote:Jehovah's Witness door knockers come by yesterday. I was polite and told them I wasn't interested. I could've yelled at them in a blue storm, but I didn't. Why? Because, they delt with nationalistc hate decades ago

Yep, I'm aware of it. Terrible. And I'm afraid we are headed for more of that...