Truth is the first casualty

[Darth Wang]

Saying that criticizing the Israeli government makes you antisemitic is like saying that criticizing Barack Obama's policies makes you racist.

[woodchip]

Also TG, Read the link about what the Palestinians did to Jordan when they gave the Palestinians a place to live. Events that led to Black September. Pay Attention to how the Fedayeen based themselves in the Palestinian refugee camps and how they were attempting to overthrow King Hussein and turn Jordan into a Palestinian State. Sound Familiar? Israel's mistake was giving the Palestinian a place to live and are now seeing the parables to Jordan being realized:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
And you wonder why no surrounding country wants the Palestinians. Sooner the Israeli's take control of Gaza the sooner they will have peace

[woodchip]

Saying that criticizing the Israeli government makes you antisemitic is like saying that criticizing Barack Obama's policies makes you racist.

Tell that to all the jews in this country that recieve death threats and don't feel safe on college campus's. Stop being a apologist for the genocidal Palestinians.

[Darth Wang]

Saying that criticizing the Israeli government makes you antisemitic is like saying that criticizing Barack Obama's policies makes you racist.

Tell that to all the jews in this country that recieve death threats and don't feel safe on college campus's. Stop being a apologist for the genocidal Palestinians.

And what about the genocidal Israelis? Of course the major difference is that one side has a massive and powerful military and weapons of mass destruction. Kind of makes genocide a lot easier.

[Vander]

Stop being a apologist for the genocidal Palestinians.

You, in this very thread, lamented that "it looks The Jews are not going to cleanse." I only see one apologist for genocide here.

[vision]

...Read the link about what the Palestinians did to Jordan...

I get the feeling you didn't read that article or didn't read it carefully enough to understand what was going on. It doesn't support your argument that Palestinians are terrorists.

[woodchip]

Saying that criticizing the Israeli government makes you antisemitic is like saying that criticizing Barack Obama's policies makes you racist.

Tell that to all the jews in this country that recieve death threats and don't feel safe on college campus's. Stop being a apologist for the genocidal Palestinians.

And what about the genocidal Israelis? Of course the major difference is that one side has a massive and powerful military and weapons of mass destruction. Kind of makes genocide a lot easier.

You're walking in the wilderness along a trail when you come upon a bear that is in your way. So you pick up a stick to get the bear to move. You hit the bear and wonder why he mauls you and all your hiking buddies.

[woodchip]

...Read the link about what the Palestinians did to Jordan...

I get the feeling you didn't read that article or didn't read it carefully enough to understand what was going on. It doesn't support your argument that Palestinians are terrorists.

Correct me if I am wrong but after the Jews kicked the pelestinians out and Jordon allowed them to live there, 1) did the palestinians try to overthrow Hussein and 2) did the palestinians try to take over Jordan and make it a palestinian state. Maybe I read the article wrong and the two groups got along and sang camp fire songs while trying to figure out how to make their world into a better state.

[woodchip]

Stop being a apologist for the genocidal Palestinians.

You, in this very thread, lamented that "it looks The Jews are not going to cleanse." I only see one apologist for genocide here.

Cleanse as in kill every man, woman and child? Or try to kill Hamas who is hiding in or under hospitals, schools and apartment buildings?

[Vander]

Are you actually making a distinction now?

[Darth Wang]

Saying that criticizing the Israeli government makes you antisemitic is like saying that criticizing Barack Obama's policies makes you racist.

Tell that to all the jews in this country that recieve death threats and don't feel safe on college campus's. Stop being a apologist for the genocidal Palestinians.

And what about the genocidal Israelis? Of course the major difference is that one side has a massive and powerful military and weapons of mass destruction. Kind of makes genocide a lot easier.

You're walking in the wilderness along a trail when you come upon a bear that is in your way. So you pick up a stick to get the bear to move. You hit the bear and wonder why he mauls you and all your hiking buddies.

What if that bear invaded your home, killed half of your family, and forced you to live in the outhouse in the backyard for 70+ years? Would you not be justified in trying to get rid of it?

Of course this whole bear analogy is terrible in the first place since it ignores the difference between civilians and their governments. Also, people aren't animals who act only by instinct. There are such things as negotiation, ethical considerations, etc. You're basically trying to say that Israel is an animal with no capacity for thought or nuance.

[Tunnelcat]

Cleanse as in kill every man, woman and child? Or try to kill Hamas who is hiding in or under hospitals, schools and apartment buildings?

A better analogy is someone burning down their house just to get rid of termites. Is that a proper way to get rid of the termites?

What I find interesting about this whole mess is that no one likes the Palestinians. No country around Israel likes them or wants them. Yet these same Middle East countries are using them as poor suffering proxies to forward their hatred of the Jews. And people are protesting FOR the Palestinian cause here and in Europe, but I can guarantee you none of these protestors would want them as immigrants or neighbors within their respective countries. Israel certainly doesn't want them as neighbors, nor want a 2 state solution that keeps them as neighbors. What to do about a population of pariahs no one wants or likes, yet people are willing to stand around yelling and screaming for their right to live. But I have to ask, where?

[Top Gun]

I love when woody attempts to clap back at one of us only to fall flat on his face.

[Spidey]

"What if that bear invaded your home, killed half of your family, and forced you to live in the outhouse in the backyard for 70+ years? Would you not be justified in trying to get rid of it?"

That statement implies that the average Palestinian has agency or complicity in the terror attacks.

[Darth Wang]

"What if that bear invaded your home, killed half of your family, and forced you to live in the outhouse in the backyard for 70+ years? Would you not be justified in trying to get rid of it?"

That statement implies that the average Palestinian has agency or complicity in the terror attacks.

You're correct. As I pointed out, woodchip's analogy was bad because it made no distinction between the people and their governments. So any attempted extension of the analogy would have the same problem.

[Ferno]

Coming back to see what was said here and I find our resident nazi comparing Palestinians to animals.

He would have been permanently banned for saying that anywhere else.

[Vander]

It’s not just about Hamas.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/ ... -west-bank

All of these things that I’ve been describing are official bureaucratic mechanisms backed by government ministries, the Army, the Israeli courts, all of these entities working jointly to achieve the same goal, pushing out Palestinians, taking over their land. When these official mechanisms fail and Palestinian communities show perseverance to stay on the land, then what you have is that other mechanism, the one that tends to make more headlines. You might catch sight of a violent settler torching a Palestinian’s field or using weapons provided to the settlers by the Army.

But a coercive environment rather than forcible transfer is more beneficial for the Israeli state. All of those boring, bureaucratic, complicated mechanisms that I’ve described, the balance there is that, on the one hand, you need patience because you’re making the lives of people a nightmare for a long duration of time. But the upside is that maybe after five years, maybe after ten years, they will just give up. And, if they give up, then you don’t end up with sensational TV footage that might create alarm internationally.

What we’ve been seeing since October 7th, after all these years of suffering and orchestrated bureaucratic violence, are direct threats and direct actions against these communities. It happens very quickly, but it does create international friction, and that is the balance that Israel has been playing with, trying to accomplish as much displacement of Palestinians as possible while paying the minimal international price.

I’m hardly an expert on all this, but this doesn’t seem all that complicated. If it were Jews living as Palestinians now are, I doubt many would have trouble calling it what it is.

[woodchip]

I love when woody attempts to clap back at one of us only to fall flat on his face.

You can't answer my points and I'm the one that's falling on his face? I guess using this ploy works for your completely ignorant friends.

[woodchip]

"What if that bear invaded your home, killed half of your family, and forced you to live in the outhouse in the backyard for 70+ years? Would you not be justified in trying to get rid of it?"

That statement implies that the average Palestinian has agency or complicity in the terror attacks.

You're correct. As I pointed out, woodchip's analogy was bad because it made no distinction between the people and their governments. So any attempted extension of the analogy would have the same problem.

So what is the distinction? Hamas is the government the people voted in. Are the Russians making any distinctions between the Ukrainian government and the civilians? Hitler make any distinctions? Mussolini? Tojo? Tough when you are easily manipulated by Hamas sympathizers

[woodchip]

It’s not just about Hamas.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/ ... -west-bank

All of these things that I’ve been describing are official bureaucratic mechanisms backed by government ministries, the Army, the Israeli courts, all of these entities working jointly to achieve the same goal, pushing out Palestinians, taking over their land. When these official mechanisms fail and Palestinian communities show perseverance to stay on the land, then what you have is that other mechanism, the one that tends to make more headlines. You might catch sight of a violent settler torching a Palestinian’s field or using weapons provided to the settlers by the Army.

But a coercive environment rather than forcible transfer is more beneficial for the Israeli state. All of those boring, bureaucratic, complicated mechanisms that I’ve described, the balance there is that, on the one hand, you need patience because you’re making the lives of people a nightmare for a long duration of time. But the upside is that maybe after five years, maybe after ten years, they will just give up. And, if they give up, then you don’t end up with sensational TV footage that might create alarm internationally.

What we’ve been seeing since October 7th, after all these years of suffering and orchestrated bureaucratic violence, are direct threats and direct actions against these communities. It happens very quickly, but it does create international friction, and that is the balance that Israel has been playing with, trying to accomplish as much displacement of Palestinians as possible while paying the minimal international price.

I’m hardly an expert on all this, but this doesn’t seem all that complicated. If it were Jews living as Palestinians now are, I doubt many would have trouble calling it what it is.

So you agree when Hamas attacked Israel that too was a attempt at genocide.

[woodchip]

"What if that bear invaded your home, killed half of your family, and forced you to live in the outhouse in the backyard for 70+ years? Would you not be justified in trying to get rid of it?"

That statement implies that the average Palestinian has agency or complicity in the terror attacks.

No more than the average Japanese was complicit in the attack on Pearl Harbor.

[Vander]

So you agree when Hamas attacked Israel that too was a attempt at genocide.

No, I don't agree that the October 7 attack was an "attempt at genocide." Were the 9/11 attacks an attempt at genocide? Of course not.

[Spidey]

"From the river to the sea"

It is the end game.

[woodchip]

So you agree when Hamas attacked Israel that too was a attempt at genocide.

No, I don't agree that the October 7 attack was an "attempt at genocide." Were the 9/11 attacks an attempt at genocide? Of course not.

You're wrong Vander, As Hamas was hoping for a multi prong attack on Israel. They wanted Hezbollah to attack from Lebanon and Iran to use missiles to help out. End result would be to annihilate the Jews. If this was not a goal to exterminate the Jews, you're not as smart as I thought you were.

[woodchip]

"From the river to the sea"

It is the end game.

Correct Spidey. I wonder how people would react if the Jews were chanting, "From the river to the sea, the Jews will be free".

[woodchip]

On a side note 60% of hate crimes in this country are committed against the Jews...who only comprise about 2% of America's population. So how much hate for the Jews do you have.

[Vander]

"From the river to the sea"

It is the end game.

Is this not also an apt description of Israel's intent?

You're wrong Vander, As Hamas was hoping for a multi prong attack on Israel. They wanted Hezbollah to attack from Lebanon and Iran to use missiles to help out. End result would be to annihilate the Jews. If this was not a goal to exterminate the Jews, you're not as smart as I thought you were.

1. steal underpants
2. ???
3. profit!

So how much hate for the Jews do you have.

That's some nose honking clown sh!t right there. Honk! Honk!

[Top Gun]

You can't answer my points and I'm the one that's falling on his face? I guess using this ploy works for your completely ignorant friends.

Woody, you have no points. You haven't had any points in two decades. No one here puts any stock in what you have to say, because you say absolutely nothing of value. Who here do you think still wants you around?

[Ferno]

On a side note 60% of hate crimes in this country are committed against the Jews...who only comprise about 2% of America's population.

By people like you.

[Tunnelcat]

I wonder what the anti-gun left thinks of this development?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/no ... rcna120602

And don't forget woody, your party harbors extremist right wing Neo Nazis, who've been targeting not only LGBTQ people, but Jews as well and long before this war broke out. Now the Jews have to worry about both Neo Nazis AND Islamic Extremists.

[Krom]

I like how all the right wing political cartoonists and pundits are going off on a huge "THAT IS ANTISEMITISM" rant at anyone for daring to suggest even the weakest ★■◆● like "Maybe Israel shouldn't bomb Palestinian refugee camps.".

What is really funny is if you go back to the year or so before the October 7th attacks, you will find a bunch of these same cartoonists hinting at various Jewish global conspiracies or depicting George Soros or some other prominent Jew with a hook nose, fangs, horns or a tail and other ★■◆● like that.

[Darth Wang]

Hamas does want to commit genocide, and so does Netahanyu. They are both equally terrible in my estimation.

If you seriously are asking what the difference is between Hamas and Palestinian civilians, you're really ignorant. Here's a hint: the former is willing to treat the latter like sacrifices and disposable cannon fodder to achieve their objectives.

[Spidey]

"From the river to the sea"

It is the end game.

Is this not also an apt description of Israel's intent?

Yea, possibly.

I believe that both parties would be perfectly happy with the total destruction of the other...that is how mutual hate works.

But I'm not living under the illusion that one side is bad and the other is good.

Try to imagine how history might have played out if the Arabs had decided to accommodate the Jews instead of declaring war back in 1948.

[vision]

Try to imagine how history might have played out if the Arabs had decided to accommodate the Jews instead of declaring war back in 1948.

Holy Hell, tell me you know nothing of the history of Palestine without saying you know nothing of the history of Palestine.

[vision]

Maybe I read the article wrong and the two groups got along and sang camp fire songs while trying to figure out how to make their world into a better state.

You absolutely did read the article wrong.

"Though the events of Black September did not reflect a Jordanian–Palestinian divide, as there were Jordanians and Palestinians on both sides of the conflict, it paved the way for such a divide to emerge subsequently"

You are trying to over-simplify a complex relationship between Palestinians and their neighbors and trying to make them all out as terrorists. Just like Hamas gets support from Iran, the Palestinian fedayeen were supported by Libya, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait who were trying to weaken Jordan. And like Gaza which has a small number of militants relative to its population of two million, the Palestinian fedayeen were small, just a few thousand, compared to the over 300,000 refugees living in Jordan. Also, you seem like the kind of dimwit who thinks Muslims band together against Jews. All these Muslim majority countries in the Middle East have their own distinct identities and hate each other. If they work together on anything it's only for temporary convenience.

[woodchip]

Maybe I read the article wrong and the two groups got along and sang camp fire songs while trying to figure out how to make their world into a better state.

You absolutely did read the article wrong.

"Though the events of Black September did not reflect a Jordanian–Palestinian divide, as there were Jordanians and Palestinians on both sides of the conflict, it paved the way for such a divide to emerge subsequently"

You are trying to over-simplify a complex relationship between Palestinians and their neighbors and trying to make them all out as terrorists. Just like Hamas gets support from Iran, the Palestinian fedayeen were supported by Libya, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait who were trying to weaken Jordan. And like Gaza which has a small number of militants relative to its population of two million, the Palestinian fedayeen were small, just a few thousand, compared to the over 300,000 refugees living in Jordan. Also, you seem like the kind of dimwit who thinks Muslims band together against Jews. All these Muslim majority countries in the Middle East have their own distinct identities and hate each other. If they work together on anything it's only for temporary convenience.

You are either trying to deflect or your reading comprehension sucks. I asked two simple question:
"Correct me if I am wrong but after the Jews kicked the pelestinians out and Jordon allowed them to live there, 1) did the palestinians try to overthrow Hussein and 2) did the palestinians try to take over Jordan and make it a palestinian state. Maybe I read the article wrong and the two groups got along and sang camp fire songs while trying to figure out how to make their world into a better state."
My 2 questions show why no Arab countries want or will allow the Palestinian's entry. [Deleted] Want to discuss side issues that's fine, I find it curious that Saudi Arabia was all set to sign a agreement recognizing Israel just as Oct 7th occurred. Seems Iran didn't want this so they got Hamas to attack and now the Saudi's are backing away. So keep thinking I'm the dimwit when you can't even see what's going on.

[Ferno]

I wonder what the anti-gun left thinks of this development?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/no ... rcna120602

"Anti-gun leftist" radical anarchist communist thug here... It's fine. Hell, my "anti-gun leftist" buddies, the world war, korea, Vietnam and recent battle veterans, the actual "leftists", would not just be perfectly fine with it, but would probably help.

[Vander]

Since your usual leftist reply shows you really think like a anti-Semite and really would prefer genocide of the Jews instead of Hamas being eliminated.

Israel has no plan to eliminate Hamas, only Palestinians.

[vision]

I asked two simple question:
"Correct me if I am wrong but after the Jews kicked the pelestinians out and Jordon allowed them to live there, 1) did the palestinians try to overthrow Hussein and 2) did the palestinians try to take over Jordan and make it a palestinian state. Maybe I read the article wrong and the two groups got along and sang camp fire songs while trying to figure out how to make their world into a better state."

Yo, read the article again. First, Jordan annexed the West Bank. Ethnic Palestinians were Jordanian citizens. The Black September event wasn't just Palestinians against Jordan, many Palestinians were against the Fatah. At no time was it possible to make Jordan a Palestinian state (and that doesn't even make sense). If anything it was political parties who wanted elections versus a monarchy. Second, if you are talking about the Black September Organization which came later and was responsible for assassinations, that group was made of a mixture of Arabs from different states. I'm not sure how you missed all this.

My 2 questions show why no Arab countries want or will allow the Palestinian's entry.

There is a good reason neighboring countries aren't taking in Palestinians: those refugees will never be allowed to return to Palestinian territories. Israel is a colonial oppressor and wants nothing more than to rid the land of Ethnic Palestinians and replace them with Ethnic Jews. Allowing this to happen is simply submitting to the aggressive colonizer. Unfortunately, the only realistic path is to hope the world finally turns against this Zionist program of genocide.

[Spidey]

Unfortunately, the only realistic path is to hope the world finally turns against this Zionist program of genocide.

And do what?