DescentBB

CUDA wrote:Different arguement for a different thread, but again it goes back to being responsible for and suffering the consequences of one's actions

It could, but my intent was to comment on ascribing different values to different lives. That seems to be the current direction in which this thread is headed.

http://www.chessbase.com/images2/2003/i ... zychuk.jpg

Here is a photo of a 13 year old girl. Look at it for awhile then think of your daughter when she was that age, or maybe soon will be. Then, like in my scenario, think of her being brutally raped, keeping quiet out of fear, father finds out, takes her to a hospital, and doctors say she is pregnant. But the law says, \"sorry, thats too bad.\" The law is the law and she cannot abort that flesh of life given to your daughter by the rapist. Take another look at her.

When she becomes noticed, she will be forced out of school because you can't be 12 or 13 and pregnant without getting ridiculed to death and becoming a distraction to the class. She will be alone all the time because other mothers, even though they sympathize, don't want their kids to hang around with her. She won't have any friends anymore. She will throw away the photo of the boy she has a secret crush on, because thats out now. Some of the older boys will tease her and want her for other reasons because she's broken now. They will treat her like dirt. She wishes she was dead, believe me, I know about that part. She throws her dolls away. She crys all the time....

I value all forms of life very much, but not at the cost of ruining another. The unborn life form is not worth hers. You can take my words out of context, insult me, make me out to be a heartless fiend, and most of all make me feel bad, which you very much have. But, I have to stand up for what is right and the bottom line is that you, who consider these laws a good thing, are no different than the rapist. He broke into her bedroom, tortured her, made her suffer, did things to her that she didn't understand because this girl was still a kid. He took her childhood and killed it, ruining her life forever. In fact, you are worse than that rapist, because what he did to her was over in minutes, but what you do will last a lifetime.

I just hope that none of you who favor the unborn life over an innocent victim, are in any position of power to force her to go through that, because if you were, I would take her out of the country and as far away from your laws as I can. Take another look at her....

Bettina

The law is the law and she cannot abort that flesh of life given to your daughter by the rapist.

I value all forms of life very much,

wow contradicting your self in the same post

the rapist ruined her life, not any law, and now you wish to ruin it further by FORCING her to kill her child and if you dont think the effects of taking a life will not last a lifetime you are sadly mistaken. either all life is sacred or no life is, you cannot have it both ways so make up your mind. now I'm sure this young girl was or is a friend of yours, but your logic in this matter is incredably flawed. and keep in mind I have 4 daughters so this is not without feeling or fore-thought.

I just hope that none of you who favor the unborn life over an innocent victim,

I feel very bad for this young lady, but your apporach of KILL IT is sad.
explain to me how the unborn child not an innocent victim in this also.

Bet51987 wrote: To me, I'm an actress just putting on a show, and I'm very good at it.

Bettina

Great, just what we need today, more phoneys.

Bettina wrote:You can take my words out of context, insult me, make me out to be a heartless fiend
...you, who consider these laws a good thing, are no different than the rapist.

Don't make the same mistake you think the other side is making.
You value the quality of life of the 13 year old girl over that of the unborn child because you believe that the unborn child's life is inherently less valuable. Those of us on the other side of the issue believe that the unborn child is a BABY. Not a "Potential Life", but an actual living child. You wouldn't help the 13 year old mother kill that baby after it was born, despite all of the problems it will cause. We feel about protecting that childs life the same way you would feel about protecting the baby after it was born.

Go back to your link, look at the picture again, but this time, reverse the roles. Assume that this innocent 13 year old girl with her dolls IS the baby fathered by a rapist upon a very young girl. You see the poor raped child and a lump of flesh. We look at the link and see TWO young innocent girls in danger. The mother AND the child. Give the child a chance at life, and that picture could be her in 13 years and 9 months. Will life be hard on the mother, no possible question about it. But there will be joys as well. For both of them.

My point being, we aren't monsters who want to ruin a young girls life. We just care about the babies life as well. The difference in our responses isn't based on a different amount of concern for the young mother, but on a different value placed on the unborn childs life.

Bet51987 wrote:http://www.chessbase.com/images2/2003/i ... zychuk.jpg

Here is a photo of a 13 year old girl. Look at it for awhile then think of your daughter when she was that age, or maybe soon will be. Then, like in my scenario, think of her being brutally raped, keeping quiet out of fear, father finds out, takes her to a hospital, and doctors say she is pregnant. But the law says, "sorry, thats too bad." The law is the law and she cannot abort that flesh of life given to your daughter by the rapist. Take another look at her.

http://home.netcom.com/~agalica/butchered2.jpg

Here is a photo of a less than 9 months old child. Look at it for awhile then think of your future daughter and when she will be your age. Then, like in this child's scenario, think of her being brutally raped from the womb with pliers, keeping quiet out of death. But the law says, "sorry, thats too bad." The law is the law and she cannot resurrect. Take another look at her.


p.s. it's bonner time

crap thx Nirv thats just what I needed to see

Nirvana wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:http://www.chessbase.com/images2/2003/i ... zychuk.jpg

Here is a photo of a 13 year old girl. Look at it for awhile then think of your daughter when she was that age, or maybe soon will be. Then, like in my scenario, think of her being brutally raped, keeping quiet out of fear, father finds out, takes her to a hospital, and doctors say she is pregnant. But the law says, "sorry, thats too bad." The law is the law and she cannot abort that flesh of life given to your daughter by the rapist. Take another look at her.

http://home.netcom.com/~agalica/butchered2.jpg

Here is a photo of a less than 9 months old child. Look at it for awhile then think of your future daughter and when she will be your age. Then, like in this child's scenario, think of her being brutally raped from the womb with pliers, keeping quiet out of death. But the law says, "sorry, thats too bad." The law is the law and she cannot resurrect. Take another look at her.


p.s. it's bonner time

I'm not talking about a 9 month old baby and you knew I wasn't and I'm somewhat surprised that you would post this just to join in the discussion and post purely for shock value. You haven't helped at all. I'm talking about the 40 days Zurick mentioned so take a look at the 4-5 week fetus where the young girl would now know something was wrong. Look at this link and try to learn something before you post again.

http://www.robynsnest.com/weekbyweek.htm

Bettina

I guess there's no concept of compare and contrast where you live :O

Oh, and the only \"shock value\" was stating that I had a boner. Which I did. And I still do!

Week 4
fertilized egg cell division
By the end of this week, you will have missed a period. The cluster of cells that was once an egg splits into two. One half attaches itself to the uterine wall and becomes the placenta (the placenta will feed and nourish the baby). The other half will become the fetus. You may begin experiencing some of the Signs of Pregnancy.

so in your time frame in \"most\" cases by the time you have found out that your pregnant you've passed your 4 week window

or

Week 5fetus embryo
The fetus cell cluster is about the size of an apple seed and has now become an embryo. The placenta and umbilical cord are now functioning. You may be experiencing the Signs of Pregnancy now. A home test will verify your suspicions. Now is the time to schedule your first obstetrical appointment. Weeks 5-10 are critical to baby’s development even though your tummy is still flat.

A home test will verify your suspicions.

so about the time you have \"suspisions' that you are pregnant, you've passed your 5 week window, so what about that little girl that waited to tell her parents that she was raped and she passes your 4-5 week window. do we allow her to kill her child or do we now \"ruin her life\" and make her carry it to term. where do you stand on this now?

Kilarin wrote:

Bettina wrote:You can take my words out of context, insult me, make me out to be a heartless fiend
...you, who consider these laws a good thing, are no different than the rapist.

Don't make the same mistake you think the other side is making.
You value the quality of life of the 13 year old girl over that of the unborn child because you believe that the unborn child's life is inherently less valuable. Those of us on the other side of the issue believe that the unborn child is a BABY. Not a "Potential Life", but an actual living child. You wouldn't help the 13 year old mother kill that baby after it was born, despite all of the problems it will cause. We feel about protecting that childs life the same way you would feel about protecting the baby after it was born.

Go back to your link, look at the picture again, but this time, reverse the roles. Assume that this innocent 13 year old girl with her dolls IS the baby fathered by a rapist upon a very young girl. You see the poor raped child and a lump of flesh. We look at the link and see TWO young innocent girls in danger. The mother AND the child. Give the child a chance at life, and that picture could be her in 13 years and 9 months. Will life be hard on the mother, no possible question about it. But there will be joys as well. For both of them.

My point being, we aren't monsters who want to ruin a young girls life. We just care about the babies life as well. The difference in our responses isn't based on a different amount of concern for the young mother, but on a different value placed on the unborn childs life.

Kilarin. I respect what you believe and I do understand where your coming from. Yes, I place a higher value of life on the living daughter. I'm not a monster that would do what Nirvana implies I would do. If it was too late to abort then I couldn't possibly do it. I just want to terminate as early as possible the damage being done to this girl. I see one life destroyed and one is saved, not two lives saved. And those who say they have daughters to look at and yet don't feel the way I do, still haven't had it happen to them. If it did, I wonder if they would have the guts to force there daughter to have the rapists baby. Its easy to say yes now...

Remember the book of Job? Where god killed Jobs family? Remember Noah wasn't allowed to take them all? God killed some to save others because he thought he had a reason.(according to the text).

I'm not a monster. A phoney yes, but not a monster and thanks for not calling me one.

Bettina

Remember the book of Job? Where god killed Jobs family

I think you need to go back and re-read the book of Job.

and why do you keep ignoring my posts? please answer my questions

Bettina wrote:Where god killed Jobs family? Remember Noah wasn't allowed to take them all?

Satan killed Jobs family, but God did allow it.
I'm not certain what you are talking about with Noah. Noah took all of his family into the ark, and he preached to the rest of the world for 120 years. None of them chose to go in.

Bettina wrote:I'm not a monster... and thanks for not calling me one.

It's a touchy topic. Very difficult to discuss without offending everyone. We are actually doing much better than I expected. The last time I got into this discussion seriously, I was simply told "Get a Uterus or shut up", as if a man had no right to an opinion on this topic at all.

Agreed this has been a remarkably civil topic considering the highly emotional content of it

Cuda, I read the book of Job. Kilarin answered what my answer would have been.

I don't see many of your questions that you didn't answer yourself, but the last one about the 4-5 week window I already answered in my last post. Its tough, I don't have all the answers, I just don't want a law passed that restricts all cases like the S.D law. I want to protect that 13 year old. Thats all. I'm not a monster.

Bettina

Bettina your takin this personally and its not, no one has called you a monster. this is a discussion. you need to take into account that with this young woman, her life has already been devistated and will NEVER EVER be the same again and that her childhood is forever over, calling for abortion is a knee jerk reaction to a baby having a baby, but make no mistake what ever the decision you make as a parent you must look long and hard at all the potential problems. her normal life is screwed and can never be repaired fully. its is a matter of how you work them through it.

so it has come to a point where as a parent do you teach your child that what happened to her was not her fault and that you will always be there to support her and that the life she carries inside of her is precious and unique?

or

do you teach your child that what happened to her was not her fault and that you will always be there to support her but that the life she carries inside of her is worthless and just a lump of flesh?

tough decisions for tough times. think it through VERY carefully and dont knee jerk it

Bettina, this WILL sound condasending to you but it is not meant that way, and I know there are plenty of \"older\" people that share the same perspective that you do. These people have no excuse (IMO), you do, Your youth. You will find that as the years go by for you, your prospective on many things will change. You speak with the bravado of youth. This is not wrong, this is natural. IMO, I did not start acting like a responsible adult till I reached thirty. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders... I also have no idea your background or where you are comming from, where you have \"been\" so to speak. Keep an open mind and lets see what your thinking in thirty years or so...

CUDA wrote:Bettina your takin this personally and its not, no one has called you a monster. this is a discussion. you need to take into account that with this young woman, her life has already been devistated and will NEVER EVER be the same again and that her childhood is forever over, calling for abortion is a knee jerk reaction to a baby having a baby, but make no mistake what ever the decision you make as a parent you must look long and hard at all the potential problems. her normal life is screwed and can never be repaired fully. its is a matter of how you work them through it.

so it has come to a point where as a parent do you teach your child that what happened to her was not her fault and that you will always be there to support her and that the life she carries inside of her is precious and unique?

or

do you teach your child that what happened to her was not her fault and that you will always be there to support her but that the life she carries inside of her is worthless and just a lump of flesh?

tough decisions for tough times. think it through VERY carefully and dont knee jerk it

If its too late to abort, then I don't know what I would do.

However, this is far from a knee jerk reaction. If the "window" is available to me, I will take it and abort the pregnancy. This way, a physco could repair the mental damage and she can go back to school and not be ridiculed. Take a look at the story of Elizabeth Smart. She was kidnapped at 15 and repeadedly raped for 8 months. They never said if she was pregnant or aborted or what. The point is that she was rescued, is healthy, back to school, and has another chance at a normal life. Thats what I would want for my 13 year old girl.

I know nobody has called me a monster, but sometimes I read between the lines and catch a vibe here and there. Its just that I have a strong feeling about the rights of a girl. Were human too.

Bettina

Von Vulcan, I posted this before I saw yours. But I hope I don't become that way. I would want whats best for my daughter if she was mine, and her life, would be most important to me....

Bet51987 wrote: Von Vulcan, I posted this before I saw yours. But I hope I don't become that way. I would want whats best for my daughter if she was mine, and her life, would be most important to me....

Become what way?

VonVulcan wrote:

Bet51987 wrote: Von Vulcan, I posted this before I saw yours. But I hope I don't become that way. I would want whats best for my daughter if she was mine, and her life, would be most important to me....

Become what way?

A way that is different than I am now. I hope I will always fight for the rights of an innocent girl. I'm sorry, but its the way I am.

Bettina

Bet51987 wrote:

VonVulcan wrote:

Bet51987 wrote: Von Vulcan, I posted this before I saw yours. But I hope I don't become that way. I would want whats best for my daughter if she was mine, and her life, would be most important to me....

Become what way?

A way that is different than I am now. I hope I will always fight for the rights of an innocent girl. I'm sorry, but its the way I am.

Bettina

Like it or not, your views will change as you get older. That is not to say that you will not always fight for the rights of the innocent, but your view on what is innocence and how to fight the fight may change a bit. At least I hope it would. If it doesn't it probably means that you are either not synthesizing your life experiences into the way you approach the world or you are not having any life experiences worth synthesizing. Either one is a sad thing.

Here is some Data that I found. It's a PDF from the Center of Deases Control and Prevention (www.cdc.gov). It's rather large (9.63 megs) but has a lot of stats in it. The stats on abortion are rather alarming. about 1.3 million a year and mostly in the \"black sector\". I recommend the search funtion.

As with any stats, it can be assumed that this is incomplete as there is many abortions and other realated data that is never reported or changed to hide errors made.