And besides, I think that loop-based would sound too... repetitive 
If you've got a decent head for math -- from my admittedly limited knowledge of you, I think you probably do -- it shouldn't be too hard to wrap it around this.
Vertigo levels require the most skill out of them all, I don't think you can make something with astounding enough geometry for that portion. Dacol Futyl is alright, but will still have to get looked at by us. We don't want to do any more work than necessary.LightWolf wrote:With my suggestion on expanding on Vertigo themes, I figured that I might be able to make such a level...
Since when are we working with quotas here? There are no quotas. I just don't want any more of your submissions because that means that many less open slots for others to use. Others like Naphtha or Sirius (hopefully)And besides, Alter has six layouts complete, so why limit me to five? Rule of law, ya know
I've already got two in, or did you forget about BCWR?Xfing wrote:I don't think you can make something with astounding enough geometry for [Vertigo].
Word. I spent like 8 months refining the first level I ever made just so it would look somewhat decent. You made tons of bad levels with geometry stolen from pre-existing ones instead, it's only natural one will improve faster than the other. Still, you've made decent progress even despite that, but designing levels for Descent is one of those things where being lazy actually doesn't pay offAlter-Fox wrote: So if you want to do something else start with improving the designs like Dacol Futyl and Puuma 1 that you've already submitted. That would also teach you a lot more about mapping than starting something new.
Truer words have never been written beforeXfing wrote:designing levels for Descent is one of those things where being lazy actually doesn't pay off
Ok, I did it for you, uploaded a version with no robots. There were not supposed to be any in the first place at this stage of the project (except placeholders maybe), so we're good for now.Kaizerwolf wrote:Lightwolf, we need to have a little chat.
I just attempted to play through Dacol Futyl Caverns or however the name is spelled. I've got some issues, mainly in that you've populated the level with robots. I get that you're attempting to show the placements that you want, but why not just use class one drones or something weaker? Why throw in tons of high damage Vertigo and end-game D2 bots?
Secondly, your design and texture choices don't seem to match up at all with the name of the level. There isn't a common theme throughout; you've got a huge tech/lab section in the beginning, for the entirety of the non-key area. Once you get through the blue door, the theme changes dramatically, and there's no uniformity through the rest of the level, either. The texture choices are plain and safe, and that's fine, but when the walls and floor and ceiling are all the same texture, it's just boring and doesn't really look good.
Take the robots out, please, and I'm not going to do it for you and reupload.I can't properly pay attention to the level's design and texture work when a room has two fusion hulks and I'm running Level 1 lasers.
I wonder if this was made manually or via some function. Can't really put my finger on it. But gotta admit it looks brilliant.Alter-Fox wrote:I'll see what I can see -- the problem I have isn't with the end result per se, but with how to do the math, since the texture "scroll" buttons aren't precise enough to do it by trial and error unless the floor is all flowing in one direction. It's why I've stayed away from seriously using the water and lava themes until this map.
Xaihyv is better at this... I may ask for his help when he has some spare time.
But how do you do it? You can't use the red cross alignment icon (third from the left) as it stretches only a single base sample of the texture to cover an entire wall. With regular shaped walls or only slightly bigger ones than normal it does have its uses, but it can't be used to achieve the effect you have here. The numerical values of the alignment do seem to be increasing at very small increments, so I can't see how it could have been done with a single press of a button. Would you mind going over it step by step?LightWolf wrote:The way I did my water is simple: Treat the water as though it were on a regular rectangular face as opposed to a curved one, and this should be reflected in the texture edit. It does have its faults though - notice how the water is stretched weird in several triangular areas.
I think he means choosing line mode instead of side mode in the upper menu in DLE, and then using the arrow keys in the texture alignment window. Once in that mode, the textures behave differently. In side mode, using the arrows actually moves the entirety of the texture in one of the four sides. In line mode, it moves the texture just along the line you choose, and leaves it fixed to the opposite line, which could create a feeling of seamlessness. I used this trick for my Makemake mine to make the pink stripe fit all the adjacent walls too. Still, I'm not quite sure that's the exact equivalent of what was done with those rivers.Alter-Fox wrote:If you are saying anything along the lines of what I think you're saying I think it may not work in this case, because, IIRC, some of the segments along the curve have drastically different dimensions -- especially in terms of the length of the side with the water on it -- from one another -- it could end up looking stretched in some places and squished in others.
But I'm really not sure what I think you're saying because you haven't explained it -- you've confused it more by making vague statements that could mean many different things.
Naptha may know what technique you're talking about, maybe he can clarify. In the meantime Xaihyv has eagerly offered to help me do the math. I'd like to give that a shot because I think if that works it's going to look the best out of all the possible options. In the meantime, Xfing you can give this a shot if you have any more idea what it means than I do.
That's been fixed by Lightwolf already. I did the followup corrections with texture alignment. No waterfalls hanging in midair anymore. Also, if necessary, depth can be created by building a 3D waterfall out of cubes. It's been done several times already as far as I know.Also, I should have made my problem with the waterfalls clearer -- Parallax tried to give them the illusion of depth the same way they did with the doors. In this case, there isn't even any reason for that waterfall to not be attached to a surface, since it's not concealing a secret. I deliberately didn't complain about the D1 lava trickle in Sedna because it's really impossible to do anything about that one, and that level uses it in such a cool way taking it out would hurt the map more than leaving it as-is. Not the case here.
Yeah I think Vertigo did it at least once.Xfing wrote:Also, if necessary, depth can be created by building a 3D waterfall out of cubes. It's been done several times already as far as I know.
Yeah, that's why I said we could use both. Of course the D2 lava falls are the only thing introduced that actually looks like lava falls. But the smaller trickles could add flavor when used alongside the new texture. I actually liked the way it was used in Level 7.Alter-Fox wrote:Which probably wouldn't be used on Brimspark anyway.
Although I much prefer the D2 lava falls to that one. Even for Descent it doesn't look natural.
Yeah, you'd have to ask Phozon about that. Probably a deliberate artistic choice on his part. Never bothered me all that much, but if it does you we can talk about itSpeaking of, I noticed the mars level uses a bunch of the lava trickles in place of the door lights. I could probably replace it with the actual door lights pretty easily if you think that's a good idea. I just don't know if it was done that way because you wanted it that way, and I would have to re-light the level after -- I don't know how SDLDevil does lighting but I do know it's not the same way DLE does.
Yeah, great video. Very perceptive of what makes games work. This is pretty noticeable in Descent too, there is clear prioritization of which robots you take care of first and which you leave for later, and lethal setups can be created with nothing but weak robots (level 9, level 11). That much can be noticed just by playing Descent on Insane without save scumming. And we'll definitely take this into consideration when creating the difficulty of the maps here.Alter-Fox wrote:I just re-found this video, which I think could be massively helpful when you get to the stage of figuring out which enemies go where. It tells you to think about more than just how dangerous each opponent is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuOObGjCA7Q
I dunno, I've been able to beat every level up to 17 on Insane so far. It's very, difficult, but can be practiced, and there's usually just enough cloaks and invulnerabilities to enable you to prevail. Doom was never a very hard game if you don't count user WADs, Descent is harder by far.Alter-Fox wrote:I thought the graph was a neat idea. Not sure how doable it is "literally" with something like 60 different enemy types but it's certainly a good way to visualise.
Looking at Descent this way, I think the original levels were populated probably with Hotshot or Ace difficulty in mind.
All the hard difficulty levels in Descent rely on the same skills, and you just have to get better at using them. Trainee and Rookie, not so much.
I had a much easier time finishing Quake 1 and 2 on hard. And Doom 3 for that matter. Quake 2 was never challenging (its mission packs were though), Quake 1 is pretty hard, but in a good way. Doom? As long as you can use the mouse, the first four episodes are a walk in the park. I remember trying to beat the first two levels of Thy Flesh Consumed without reloading though, and that was hard. Real hard. Playing with just the keyboard would be a nightmare, since keys weren't bindable in vanilla doom, and I don't think there was a way to strafe and turn at the same time. It's quite ironic that it's really easy to play Descent with just the keyboard, and it's full 3D and 360 degrees of freedom, lol.Xfing wrote:I dunno, I've been able to beat every level up to 17 on Insane so far. It's very, difficult, but can be practiced, and there's usually just enough cloaks and invulnerabilities to enable you to prevail. Doom was never a very hard game if you don't count user WADs, Descent is harder by far.Alter-Fox wrote:I thought the graph was a neat idea. Not sure how doable it is "literally" with something like 60 different enemy types but it's certainly a good way to visualise.
Looking at Descent this way, I think the original levels were populated probably with Hotshot or Ace difficulty in mind.
