DescentBB

You mean one of your missions or are you talking about level 36?
That one's got its own song ("Inside Out" on the dropbox) already and I'm hoping to get enough tracks for the OST that I don't need to use any of them more than twice. That one in particular is for level 36 and no others -- Ice Boss absolutely needs his own vocal track.
I think Momentum is one that will have to play twice though.

Another area where Momentum would work is Eris...

I do kind of already have some idea of both places it should go. If I were to reevaluate I would need to have... more songs to fit better into those places. I agree it could fit Eris but I think another type of song could fit that one a lot better -- I want to wait and see what else I get.
Weren't you going to possibly do something that maybe might kinda help with that?

BTW I've uploaded Eris with those changes... also replaced the brown door lights in that room when I realised I'd removed them.

I was, but the repetitiveness of a loop-based song must have gotten to me And besides, I think that loop-based would sound too... repetitive
If I had the budget for a full-fledged OGG synth and not just a midi synth...

Thing #1 that's not how synths work.
Thing #2 there's loads of free stuff out there. A large portion of what I use is freeware and for a long time it was almost all I used.
LMMS would probably be the best place to start. And some research into music theory and how this stuff actually works. If you've got a decent head for math -- from my admittedly limited knowledge of you, I think you probably do -- it shouldn't be too hard to wrap it around this.

I would prefer not to use loop-based stuff on the DCA][ because that's so close to copyright infringement it can become it when you're not very careful about what you use. It's... borderline rejectable. Same reason I don't want remixes of songs from other artists and albums.
Back to topic I think I've figured out where the most current version of Gadget is. I'd still like to check it for crashes.

Thanks for that Eris change, it looks much better now. I rotated the x-grate on the floor and ceiling at the entrance to the tunnel to match the orientation of the remaining ones, and fixed an error I introduced during my last editing session with Eris, where the grated tunnel leading to the blue key section was not connected to the rest of the hub area.

On a different note, I wonder what's up with homeyduh. I have sent him a PM a while ago, but it's still in the outbox, so it hasn't been read. It's a real shame he just disappeared, his Solar System levels are brilliant and I'd love to get more.

Kinda like Stroodles a while ago too. Remember Stroodles? His levels weren't quite as good, but he still had potential. Gone without a word

With my suggestion on expanding on Vertigo themes, I figured that I might be able to make such a level...
And besides, Alter has six layouts complete, so why limit me to five? Rule of law, ya know

Probably going to expand on the VL15-style ice.

LightWolf wrote:With my suggestion on expanding on Vertigo themes, I figured that I might be able to make such a level...

Vertigo levels require the most skill out of them all, I don't think you can make something with astounding enough geometry for that portion. Dacol Futyl is alright, but will still have to get looked at by us. We don't want to do any more work than necessary.

And besides, Alter has six layouts complete, so why limit me to five? Rule of law, ya know

Since when are we working with quotas here? There are no quotas. I just don't want any more of your submissions because that means that many less open slots for others to use. Others like Naphtha or Sirius (hopefully)

Xfing wrote:I don't think you can make something with astounding enough geometry for [Vertigo].

I've already got two in, or did you forget about BCWR?
I never said it had to be a later level, I just was thinking about getting one in.
And besides, I have been experimenting with slightly more advanced geometry...

Slightly is still probably not good enough, honestly. Your other submissions still need a lot of work and you've already said you're unwilling or unable to do that -- you would leave it for someone else. There's already a lot of work for us to do here without that, and if somebody comes along later in the project with a better map for one of those slots that wouldn't require extra work on our part I can't say we wouldn't take it instead. Secondary mapping isn't a bad thing but there's a line between asking for help and taking advantage of it.
We don't need more maps that are unpolished and left for the rest of us to complete. And we would like to attract some other designers to the slots that are still open -- better variety is, just, better and in something this size the players certainly would expect it.

So if you want to do something else start with improving the designs like Dacol Futyl and Puuma 1 that you've already submitted. That would also teach you a lot more about mapping than starting something new.

Alter-Fox wrote: So if you want to do something else start with improving the designs like Dacol Futyl and Puuma 1 that you've already submitted. That would also teach you a lot more about mapping than starting something new.

Word. I spent like 8 months refining the first level I ever made just so it would look somewhat decent. You made tons of bad levels with geometry stolen from pre-existing ones instead, it's only natural one will improve faster than the other. Still, you've made decent progress even despite that, but designing levels for Descent is one of those things where being lazy actually doesn't pay off

Xfing wrote:designing levels for Descent is one of those things where being lazy actually doesn't pay off

Truer words have never been written before

Lightwolf, we need to have a little chat.

I just attempted to play through Dacol Futyl Caverns or however the name is spelled. I've got some issues, mainly in that you've populated the level with robots. I get that you're attempting to show the placements that you want, but why not just use class one drones or something weaker? Why throw in tons of high damage Vertigo and end-game D2 bots?

Secondly, your design and texture choices don't seem to match up at all with the name of the level. There isn't a common theme throughout; you've got a huge tech/lab section in the beginning, for the entirety of the non-key area. Once you get through the blue door, the theme changes dramatically, and there's no uniformity through the rest of the level, either. The texture choices are plain and safe, and that's fine, but when the walls and floor and ceiling are all the same texture, it's just boring and doesn't really look good.

Take the robots out, please, and I'm not going to do it for you and reupload.I can't properly pay attention to the level's design and texture work when a room has two fusion hulks and I'm running Level 1 lasers.

Kaizerwolf wrote:Lightwolf, we need to have a little chat.

I just attempted to play through Dacol Futyl Caverns or however the name is spelled. I've got some issues, mainly in that you've populated the level with robots. I get that you're attempting to show the placements that you want, but why not just use class one drones or something weaker? Why throw in tons of high damage Vertigo and end-game D2 bots?

Secondly, your design and texture choices don't seem to match up at all with the name of the level. There isn't a common theme throughout; you've got a huge tech/lab section in the beginning, for the entirety of the non-key area. Once you get through the blue door, the theme changes dramatically, and there's no uniformity through the rest of the level, either. The texture choices are plain and safe, and that's fine, but when the walls and floor and ceiling are all the same texture, it's just boring and doesn't really look good.

Take the robots out, please, and I'm not going to do it for you and reupload.I can't properly pay attention to the level's design and texture work when a room has two fusion hulks and I'm running Level 1 lasers.

Ok, I did it for you, uploaded a version with no robots. There were not supposed to be any in the first place at this stage of the project (except placeholders maybe), so we're good for now.

I disagree about the texture choice, it's actually not that bad. The level does have some issues, but I don't think the general texture choice is one of them. There are differences and there is no strong continuity, but that's actually good at times. Counterstrike was plagued by too much uniformity throughout entire levels (perhaps only Zeta Aquilae being an exception). Descent 1 was criticized not because of this, but because the textures seemed bland and therefore levels looked sameish. In Descent 2 levels looked sameish for different reasons, that's why Vertigo came out to fix it.

IMO the most pressing issues about the level are some doors on flat surfaces and a grating overuse of long lights. You're free to take a look now. I left the equipment in the level for now, but that's of course subject to later change. I agree about the name too. I think "tunnels" would be a much more apt name than "caverns".

Finally decided to fix the issues with Dacol Futyl, along with a couple of miscellaneous tweaks:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwhA94 ... sp=sharing

Yeah I don't think there's anything wrong with the texturing. The level's pretty clear about what it's trying to be.
The lighting might have been a little too bright but I'll wait to look at the new version before I judge that.

There are still issues, but those will be easily enough fixed. Actually I'll fix them right now, so refrain from putting up updated versions until you see mine, feel free to work off that.

- The hostages
- The texture framing some doors is traditionally only used with forcefields, it should be changed to a more appropriate doorlight
- Beyond the yellow door, floor water flows in illogical directions
- Μany waterfall textures relying on both full and trickling water textures have misalignments
- One texture in the entry shaft just past the red door doesn't match
- The level uses two different kinds of doors in around equal proportions, that's a no go. Something Fox did in his ice level can fly, but not this. Gotta choose one of the doors.
- Thought the tiny grate puzzle with a waterfall beyond it had too steep a slope to its tunnel, but it's actually ok, I made it on my 3rd try with a guided
- The colored textures marking the keys - I think they're pretty textures and all, but IMO they look like they were meant to be used on robots, not really walls. I prefer to switch them out for D1's plainer ones (this goes for all the levels)
- I would do away with the long lights encircling the entire reactor chamber. These are neither necessary or good looking. A more sparse source of light would be a much better choice here.
- No one would ever, I repeat, EVER make it in time to do all the puzzles with the doors opened upon reactor detonation. No one is getting that shaker in 30 seconds. I'll be adding a new switch for that purpose.
- Seriously, rename the level to Dacol Futyl Tunnels. It would definitely fit better.
- Also, just realized it: Groupa? Seriously? This level should be Water! Or Descent (don't mind me, for me any level could use that palette and be sweet)

Shoutout: the flowing water in the "split paths" section at the bottom of the blue door shaft. Alter-Fox, chesk out how beautifully the water here is aligned and changes direction! You should be able to replicate it for your Planetary Life Research level, the river looks pretty much seamless here.

I'll see what I can see -- the problem I have isn't with the end result per se, but with how to do the math, since the texture "scroll" buttons aren't precise enough to do it by trial and error unless the floor is all flowing in one direction. It's why I've stayed away from seriously using the water and lava themes until this map.
Xaihyv is better at this... I may ask for his help when he has some spare time.

Alter-Fox wrote:I'll see what I can see -- the problem I have isn't with the end result per se, but with how to do the math, since the texture "scroll" buttons aren't precise enough to do it by trial and error unless the floor is all flowing in one direction. It's why I've stayed away from seriously using the water and lava themes until this map.
Xaihyv is better at this... I may ask for his help when he has some spare time.

I wonder if this was made manually or via some function. Can't really put my finger on it. But gotta admit it looks brilliant.

The way I did my water is simple: Treat the water as though it were on a regular rectangular face as opposed to a curved one, and this should be reflected in the texture edit. It does have its faults though - notice how the water is stretched weird in several triangular areas.

And the reason I did the two doors is because I was trying to mimic how VL7 did its doors. Notice how you start with Door47 in the upper area, then switch to Door35 in the lower area. I just used Door04 instead of Door47.

Made all the changes and fixes to Dacol Futyl listed above, in addition to:

- switching the side of the secret door at the start of the blue door shaft. When the secret door was opposite the fan, it looked as if disappearing into thin air when opening. I just removed that cube and appended it and the adjoining one to the other side of the shaft
- deleting the two secret doors and the adjoining cubes in the red area that didn't contain a switch. I assumed they were meant to contain trap bots, but there is still a matcen facing an escaping player, so those would be overkill. I left the one with the switch of course
- moving the trigger to open that door from the reactor to a newly made switch behind a mesh grate that you see when facing the reactor
- changing lights where possible to less grating variants.

The level does look pretty good now IMO. Though to be honest, I do think it might have looked better with Group A, certain textures just have cooler colors there. But Water does fit the level to a T too, and it's easy enough to change back, since there aren't many imported textures. Check the level out now, it should already be on dropbox.

About the forcefield light -
The main reason I used it is because I actually think it is way underused, and that it can shine in areas that don't contain blue bars that make everything bounce.

LightWolf wrote:The way I did my water is simple: Treat the water as though it were on a regular rectangular face as opposed to a curved one, and this should be reflected in the texture edit. It does have its faults though - notice how the water is stretched weird in several triangular areas.

But how do you do it? You can't use the red cross alignment icon (third from the left) as it stretches only a single base sample of the texture to cover an entire wall. With regular shaped walls or only slightly bigger ones than normal it does have its uses, but it can't be used to achieve the effect you have here. The numerical values of the alignment do seem to be increasing at very small increments, so I can't see how it could have been done with a single press of a button. Would you mind going over it step by step?

BTW I was able to fix breaking waterfalls. There's a really easy trick for it, you just overlay the trickling water over the "solid" water so that there is no seam where the two textures meet just the trickling water. Quite elegant, I'd say.

Line mode works in more than the main structure editor
When in line or point mode, attempting to shift the alignment of a side will shift the selected line/point. When combined with stretch to fit, you can make easy rectangles.

If you are saying anything along the lines of what I think you're saying I think it may not work in this case, because, IIRC, some of the segments along the curve have drastically different dimensions -- especially in terms of the length of the side with the water on it -- from one another -- it could end up looking stretched in some places and squished in others.
But I'm really not sure what I think you're saying because you haven't explained it -- you've confused it more by making vague statements that could mean many different things.
Naptha may know what technique you're talking about, maybe he can clarify. In the meantime Xaihyv has eagerly offered to help me do the math. I'd like to give that a shot because I think if that works it's going to look the best out of all the possible options. In the meantime, Xfing you can give this a shot if you have any more idea what it means than I do.

In the meantime I've taken a look at the way Parallax did it and... it wasn't much help. They either left all the water flowing one way no matter where the tunnel went or basically the same thing I already did, and the difference was only that they avoided constructions like the wide 90 degree corner altogether. There is one thing they did that I could do but it would only improve it a little.

Also, I should have made my problem with the waterfalls clearer -- Parallax tried to give them the illusion of depth the same way they did with the doors. In this case, there isn't even any reason for that waterfall to not be attached to a surface, since it's not concealing a secret. I deliberately didn't complain about the D1 lava trickle in Sedna because it's really impossible to do anything about that one, and that level uses it in such a cool way taking it out would hurt the map more than leaving it as-is. Not the case here.

Alter-Fox wrote:If you are saying anything along the lines of what I think you're saying I think it may not work in this case, because, IIRC, some of the segments along the curve have drastically different dimensions -- especially in terms of the length of the side with the water on it -- from one another -- it could end up looking stretched in some places and squished in others.
But I'm really not sure what I think you're saying because you haven't explained it -- you've confused it more by making vague statements that could mean many different things.
Naptha may know what technique you're talking about, maybe he can clarify. In the meantime Xaihyv has eagerly offered to help me do the math. I'd like to give that a shot because I think if that works it's going to look the best out of all the possible options. In the meantime, Xfing you can give this a shot if you have any more idea what it means than I do.

I think he means choosing line mode instead of side mode in the upper menu in DLE, and then using the arrow keys in the texture alignment window. Once in that mode, the textures behave differently. In side mode, using the arrows actually moves the entirety of the texture in one of the four sides. In line mode, it moves the texture just along the line you choose, and leaves it fixed to the opposite line, which could create a feeling of seamlessness. I used this trick for my Makemake mine to make the pink stripe fit all the adjacent walls too. Still, I'm not quite sure that's the exact equivalent of what was done with those rivers.

Also, I should have made my problem with the waterfalls clearer -- Parallax tried to give them the illusion of depth the same way they did with the doors. In this case, there isn't even any reason for that waterfall to not be attached to a surface, since it's not concealing a secret. I deliberately didn't complain about the D1 lava trickle in Sedna because it's really impossible to do anything about that one, and that level uses it in such a cool way taking it out would hurt the map more than leaving it as-is. Not the case here.

That's been fixed by Lightwolf already. I did the followup corrections with texture alignment. No waterfalls hanging in midair anymore. Also, if necessary, depth can be created by building a 3D waterfall out of cubes. It's been done several times already as far as I know.

I think that level could use another energy center or even two, considering how sprawling it is. Not having any energy centers does add to difficulty, but adding just one only adds to frustration of having to backtrack such distances to recharge, as was the case with D1 L4 for example.

Xfing wrote:Also, if necessary, depth can be created by building a 3D waterfall out of cubes. It's been done several times already as far as I know.

Yeah I think Vertigo did it at least once.

VL7 had the waterfall.

I found a slightly older level that I built a little while back. It is definitely a good medium-sized level, and I was wondering if anyone would want to look at it and see if, with some possible improvement, it would fit in the project, either as S'tlo Sigma or the remaining Vertigo boss level. (The major difference it that the one that would go for Vertigo is icy while the S'tlo version is Puuma Sphere)

Warning though - The blue door, especially in the Puuma version, requires some skill...

Probably not.
Like I said earlier, if we have to spend a significant amount of time and energy refining a map that isn't good enough, it's a better use of that same time and energy to build a map that's better from the ground up.

Salt Distillation Facility is at 571 cubes, plenty to build the yellow and red areas. I want to combine those two, I've got a neat idea for the reactor. My max for D2 is 900 right?

Also, screenshot for proof!

Yep.

I really like what I see! Looking forward to that level. Your geometry style is definitely very Vertigo-ish, which is an excellent thing.

900 cubes is the max for vanilla, sadly. But it's still entirely possible to make levels that look huge within that limit.

BTW, I just remembered something - I want all kinds of lava in at least one level in Brimspark. I'd just like to see how the new lava textures from D2 cooperate with the more retro looking ones from D1. I believe it would be entirely possible to reintroduce the original lava by sacrificing one of the water textures (it's 4 frames long, so I'm not sure if it fits, but that's no biggie), and then simply changing its flag to lava. That's easy enough to do. As for the thin lava trickle, it's already prepared in the template POGs, but it sacrifices the cool, green alien monitor/stripe thingy.

Which probably wouldn't be used on Brimspark anyway.
Although I much prefer the D2 lava falls to that one. Even for Descent it doesn't look natural.

Speaking of, I noticed the mars level uses a bunch of the lava trickles in place of the door lights. I could probably replace it with the actual door lights pretty easily if you think that's a good idea. I just don't know if it was done that way because you wanted it that way, and I would have to re-light the level after -- I don't know how SDLDevil does lighting but I do know it's not the same way DLE does.

Alter-Fox wrote:Which probably wouldn't be used on Brimspark anyway.
Although I much prefer the D2 lava falls to that one. Even for Descent it doesn't look natural.

Yeah, that's why I said we could use both. Of course the D2 lava falls are the only thing introduced that actually looks like lava falls. But the smaller trickles could add flavor when used alongside the new texture. I actually liked the way it was used in Level 7.

Speaking of, I noticed the mars level uses a bunch of the lava trickles in place of the door lights. I could probably replace it with the actual door lights pretty easily if you think that's a good idea. I just don't know if it was done that way because you wanted it that way, and I would have to re-light the level after -- I don't know how SDLDevil does lighting but I do know it's not the same way DLE does.

Yeah, you'd have to ask Phozon about that. Probably a deliberate artistic choice on his part. Never bothered me all that much, but if it does you we can talk about it

I just re-found this video, which I think could be massively helpful when you get to the stage of figuring out which enemies go where. It tells you to think about more than just how dangerous each opponent is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuOObGjCA7Q

Alter-Fox wrote:I just re-found this video, which I think could be massively helpful when you get to the stage of figuring out which enemies go where. It tells you to think about more than just how dangerous each opponent is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuOObGjCA7Q

Yeah, great video. Very perceptive of what makes games work. This is pretty noticeable in Descent too, there is clear prioritization of which robots you take care of first and which you leave for later, and lethal setups can be created with nothing but weak robots (level 9, level 11). That much can be noticed just by playing Descent on Insane without save scumming. And we'll definitely take this into consideration when creating the difficulty of the maps here.

I thought the graph was a neat idea. Not sure how doable it is "literally" with something like 60 different enemy types but it's certainly a good way to visualise.
Looking at Descent this way, I think the original levels were populated probably with Hotshot or Ace difficulty in mind.

Alter-Fox wrote:I thought the graph was a neat idea. Not sure how doable it is "literally" with something like 60 different enemy types but it's certainly a good way to visualise.
Looking at Descent this way, I think the original levels were populated probably with Hotshot or Ace difficulty in mind.

I dunno, I've been able to beat every level up to 17 on Insane so far. It's very, difficult, but can be practiced, and there's usually just enough cloaks and invulnerabilities to enable you to prevail. Doom was never a very hard game if you don't count user WADs, Descent is harder by far.

That's exactly why I think it wasn't balanced on insane.
Doesn't mean it wasn't balanced for insane. All the hard difficulty levels in Descent rely on the same skills, and you just have to get better at using them. Trainee and Rookie, not so much.
...
Speak for yourself, I can never find enough ammo on Ultraviolence, especially in episode three. I had a much easier time finishing Quake 1 and 2 on hard. And Doom 3 for that matter.

Xfing wrote:

Alter-Fox wrote:I thought the graph was a neat idea. Not sure how doable it is "literally" with something like 60 different enemy types but it's certainly a good way to visualise.
Looking at Descent this way, I think the original levels were populated probably with Hotshot or Ace difficulty in mind.

I dunno, I've been able to beat every level up to 17 on Insane so far. It's very, difficult, but can be practiced, and there's usually just enough cloaks and invulnerabilities to enable you to prevail. Doom was never a very hard game if you don't count user WADs, Descent is harder by far.

Quake 2 was never challenging (its mission packs were though), Quake 1 is pretty hard, but in a good way. Doom? As long as you can use the mouse, the first four episodes are a walk in the park. I remember trying to beat the first two levels of Thy Flesh Consumed without reloading though, and that was hard. Real hard. Playing with just the keyboard would be a nightmare, since keys weren't bindable in vanilla doom, and I don't think there was a way to strafe and turn at the same time. It's quite ironic that it's really easy to play Descent with just the keyboard, and it's full 3D and 360 degrees of freedom, lol.