Descent 1 1/2

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:34 pm

The point is I found the entirety of Quake on Hard easier than Doom's third and fourth episodes on UV, and I've heard more people say it's the other way around. But I found Quake 2 about as easy as people say. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule for everyone.
Honestly I think I once made it to E3M2 on UV before running completely out of all types of ammo and dying repeatedly trying to get more. I was a latecomer to the game and I haven't ever played it without the mouse.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:12 pm

Alter-Fox wrote:The point is I found the entirety of Quake on Hard easier than Doom's third and fourth episodes on UV, and I've heard more people say it's the other way around. But I found Quake 2 about as easy as people say. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule for everyone.
Honestly I think I once made it to E3M2 on UV before running completely out of all types of ammo and dying repeatedly trying to get more. I was a latecomer to the game and I haven't ever played it without the mouse.

Same, I started playing way, way after I was introduced to Descent. Quite ironic, but whatever

can't wait for Kaizerwolf's new level!

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:30 pm

Xfing wrote:can't wait for Kaizerwolf's new level!

Working through some life stresses at the moment, so I'm on a bit of a creative hold for the level and even my music. I'll be back in due time, better than before.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:06 am

Kaizerwolf wrote:
Xfing wrote:can't wait for Kaizerwolf's new level!
Working through some life stresses at the moment, so I'm on a bit of a creative hold for the level and even my music. I'll be back in due time, better than before.

No pressure, take your time! Sort out your stuff first.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:15 pm

Ok, here's the level I was talking about:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwhA94 ... sp=sharing

The first one (arzyouka) is the S'tlo version. The other one (arzyouk2) is the Vertigo (Frisia) one.
Don't ask about the "arzyouka" filenames.

Alter-Fox wrote: Like I said earlier, if we have to spend a significant amount of time and energy refining a map that isn't good enough, it's a better use of that same time and energy to build a map that's better from the ground up.

My lazy streak has since worn off, so any possible improvements I am willing to do. Especially if it means I can have the Vertigo spot.

One more thing: I insist that the forcefeild light above the blue door stays. It is probably the most underused texture that has massive potential that has nothing to do with blue bars that make everything bounce.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:10 am

Well, in all honesty, I'm very impressed! This level is actually excellent. A lot of things about this level simply work, and I think it would be a worthwhile addition to the mission. Of course not counting the robot population - you're horrible at that and I'm sure you haven't tested your own level on Insane. Hell, I couldn't beat this on Hotshot probably

As for the texturing, the ice version looks pretty much impeccable, save for animated textures, of which you've only replaced the first frame, so all doorlights and monitors need to be fixed. Use the template next time, or go frame by frame in dle-xp. For doorlights, just replace all the frames with the static D1 texture.

I like the texturing in the ice version better than the Puuma Sphere version. It's very creative, varied and beautiful. However, an entirely ice-based level simply doesn't feel right for the Alien 2 boss. It would need at least some alien accents here and there (more than it does have, at least). I'm not sure if this wouldn't ruin the texture cohesion, though, which I'd say is pretty amazing. The alien version of the level does look good on its own, but it's also a bit bland and generic, looks a tad hastily made compared to the ice version. It does work though, and is not such a bad place for the D1 L7 boss. In both cases though, it does need more secrets with goodies in the arena room, and needs more triggers for the matcens there, but each of them should be one-shot. Being flooded by robots of this strength in a boss arena is too much for anyone to handle.

I really like the swirling texture corridor, but it doesn't amount to anything, which is sad. A corridor looking this awesome should lead to something secret and amazing, perhaps even a secret level teleporter. Right now it's just there to tease us. Again, the texture alignment here is seamless just like with those rivers in Dacol Futyl, this is pretty impressive.

So yeah, here are the options I'm considering right now:

1) Include the Puuma version after suggested changes and improving texture variety
2) Include the Ice version after suggested changes and adding more Puuma touches
3) Include the Ice version after suggested changes, with no theme change but after turning it into a reactor level (my preferred option)

Before deciding, I'll let others chime in too, though.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:07 am

I kinda like option 2...
And I did use the template, and the first frame thing is my attempt at removing the custom texture in question...

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:18 am

LightWolf wrote:I kinda like option 2...

Why are you so fixated on boss levels?

LightWolf wrote:And I did use the template, and the first frame thing is my attempt at removing the custom texture in question...

Oh, ok then

Still, it's the same thing to do in DLE basically.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:21 pm

Fixed the switches in Pumo's palette! I've uploaded the revised version to Dropbox, please equip yourselves with it.

Turns out DTX2 doesn't like BMPs created by DLE, so I had to export the BMPs straight from DTX2 too, and edit them in Paint. Annoying doesn't even begin to describe it, but I managed somehow. Shame it was me who had to do it and after 2 whole years, but oh well, at least it's done now.

I'll be putting a download link in Pumo's own thread for this.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:56 pm

Xfing wrote:Why are you so fixated on boss levels?

I'd be a little more open to a reactor if the level didn't quite have such an integral boss-esque red door...

BTW Here's the tweaked ice version:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwhA94 ... sp=sharing
I also found a couple ways to increase texture variance here-and-there. I still can't seem to solve the isolated texture-removal issue, so I'll let someone who actually knows how do that fix the textures.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:11 pm

Xfing wrote:Fixed the switches in Pumo's palette! I've uploaded the revised version to Dropbox, please equip yourselves with it.

Turns out DTX2 doesn't like BMPs created by DLE, so I had to export the BMPs straight from DTX2 too, and edit them in Paint. Annoying doesn't even begin to describe it, but I managed somehow. Shame it was me who had to do it and after 2 whole years, but oh well, at least it's done now.

I'll be putting a download link in Pumo's own thread for this.

Choose the texture in DLE, make sure you've got "use 2nd" checked. Then click Edit, and you'll find yourself in the Custom Texture Manager window. You've got all frames of the texture there right off the bat, you just need to click "revert" on every frame individually, if you only click on the main texture, it'll only revert the 1st frame and leave all the others still changed, like in your case. It's a really simple operation.

Unless you're using a version of DLE so old that you don't have the Custom Texture Manager yet. In that case, I suggest keeping up to date.

EDIT: Checked out the level - this kind of mixture between ice and alien 2 looks horrible, there's no way I'm letting that in. Right now I'm not sure if these two themes can even coexist, but I'm sure that if skillfully done, it could be possible. I think you should go more with white as a centerpiece to bind it all together, and supplement with bluish whites and greenish whites. Dark blue and dark green in a single room look horrible. This needs a complete rework, though I don't think there is a point to that. There's much less work in just taking the initial ice version and slapping a reactor at the bottom of the water pit in the red area. Believe me, that area does work as a reactor room too, there have been lots of expansive reactor rooms in various levels.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:33 pm

Eh, I guess a reactor could work...
Wait...
Just remembered there was a reactor to start with

Complete with full 8-player anarchy/ctf support...
I did say this wasn't originally made overly recently, didn't I?

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:13 pm

LightWolf wrote:Eh, I guess a reactor could work...
Wait...
Just remembered there was a reactor to start with Complete with full 8-player anarchy/ctf support...
I did say this wasn't originally made overly recently, didn't I?

Well, even still, there will be stuff to work on here. When you upload it, I'll need input from at least 2 others before I do anything with it

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:58 am

Light, this is in regards to Frisia.

Come on man, why? What is the reasoning behind populating levels with the most difficult robots in the game? Why? It takes away from the most important part at this stage of building, and that's the level design, cube and texture wise. Robots are coming later, if I recall correctly.

Now, on to what I saw of the level (i raged after multiple concussion bots were in small tiny corridors).

I'm not going to lie; the level looks like a badly done Maze screensaver from Windows 2000. I see how you were attempting to fit Ice and Alien together, but it felt half-assed and sloppy. The design was confusing and long winded, with a lot of unnecessary backtracking. Geometry blatantly borrowed from other Descent main campaign levels as well, but they just didn't fit. I had to do plenty of backtracking for energy as well, especially before getting the yellow key. And then, in the yellow area, you decided to just put energy centers everywhere, which isn't great at all. There's a time and a place for having energy management become challenging, but this was ridiculous. Textures only having one frame of their proper animation, but xfing already mentioned this.

Overall I'm not a fan, and I don't think any amount of work could really save this one.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:51 pm

[quote=Kaizerwolf]I see how you were attempting to fit Ice and Alien together, but it felt half-assed and sloppy.[/quote]
Did you see the pure ice version yet? Here's the link again, just in case:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwhA94 ... sp=sharing
It does come bundled with a Puuma version (though they do use separate HOGs).

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:38 pm

LightWolf wrote: Did you see the pure ice version yet? Here's the link again, just in case:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwhA94 ... sp=sharing
It does come bundled with a Puuma version (though they do use separate HOGs).

Even if the textures are fixed to either Ice or Puuma Sphere, the level design still feels sloppy and too tight. The energy center issues, the textures being only on frame one, misalignments all over the place... it feels like you rushed it because you just want spots on the level roster.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:16 am

Well, you heard the man! Hands are tied

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:42 pm

I started work on The Cauldron. Marked it as taken by me too. Hope I'm up to the challenge here, but I've managed to make the central hub quite elegant and interesting, even though it's simple. I'll keep working at my own pace and post some screenshots.

It'll be a Brimspark level, obviously, but it will focus on D1's Martian reds to give them a bit more exposure in the pack (as per Alter-Fox's suggestion), and gray "ash" textures. I will also attempt to use all the lava textures in this level, including the D1 lava and the thin lava trickle, at least once.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:04 am

I dumped over 500 cubes on a single room. This is completely inexcusable and unjustifiable. I have only 260 cubes left to do the rest of the whole level

I think it is possible though - from what I've seen the Brimspark levels of Counterstrike are pretty sprawling, yet use only around 500 cubes in all. It's gonna take some doing though, not to mention the level will be pretty short because of that. What a pickle

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:19 pm

Xfing wrote:I dumped over 500 cubes on a single room. This is completely inexcusable and unjustifiable. I have only 260 cubes left to do the rest of the whole level

I think it is possible though - from what I've seen the Brimspark levels of Counterstrike are pretty sprawling, yet use only around 500 cubes in all. It's gonna take some doing though, not to mention the level will be pretty short because of that. What a pickle

The Sheltem factory is on the smaller side, cubes went to detail more than level size. I think it's alright to have that kind of variety, you know?

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:52 am

Honestly, I did the same thing on Frosted Minerals and it turned out ok.

Take a look at the Descent Maximum levels if you need some more large rooms -- they were very good at building them just out of a few segments and it could give you some ideas.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:53 pm

Well, here's what the level looks like right now:

https://www.sendspace.com/file/bqkxe4

There'll be a hostage cell in the cavernous area, but not much else I suppose. I'll add an entry chamber too, so that you don't begin straight away in the hub area, so I just need to build the two side areas with the blue and yellow keys and the reactor chamber, which can be a single room basically. Still, I think the level loses quite a bit of potential in size because of that one room. Too bad I took like 30 hours making it :<

I believe some segments can be salvaged by removing most of the space above the walkway. Ironically, those parts are very cube-efficient, and it's all those segments above the lava that take up most of the count. And they don't even do anything!

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:13 pm

Yeah I can see that... you can probably salvage at least three segments from the exit tunnel as well.
And believe me it's worth it; on both my last two maps, every single segment I could salvage counted.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:02 am

The biggest problem was me making four levels of very flat segments, just to give myself more flexibility to edit the rocks jutting out of the lava. I could probably merge levels 1 thru 3 and just leave the 4th level, that would free up a lot of cubes. And that is probably something I totally should do, but the amount of work hours it's sure to take kinda scares me right now. I'll do it when I have a completely free day, haha

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:31 am

Reactor room is coming along for the salt mine, and I've still got about 250-300 cubes for yellow shenanigans.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:49 pm

What a beautiful shot there! Looks like a cylindrical room, which I don't mind at all, but I wonder if that won't clash with Glacierspire, if Sirius ever makes it. Though personally I can't imagine Glacierspire looking much different than the Sunspire, except you know, glaciery

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:32 am

It should be alright; this is really the only room of this level with that design. Yellow shenanigans are finished up, working on some extra, non-key areas to make the level really feel like Descent 2. After that it's making sure triggers and bot makers are in place and working, and finalizing design touches to make the best use of cubes. D2's limit is 900, right?

I'll let you guys know when it's finished. I like this level a lot, I was stuck on where to go for a bit, but it's definitely come together nicely.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:18 pm

Kaizerwolf wrote:It should be alright; this is really the only room of this level with that design. Yellow shenanigans are finished up, working on some extra, non-key areas to make the level really feel like Descent 2. After that it's making sure triggers and bot makers are in place and working, and finalizing design touches to make the best use of cubes. D2's limit is 900, right?

I'll let you guys know when it's finished. I like this level a lot, I was stuck on where to go for a bit, but it's definitely come together nicely.

Glorious

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Salt Distillation Mine is up in the Level 29 folder. Give it a fly through and let me know what you think!

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:15 pm

Kaizerwolf wrote:Salt Distillation Mine is up in the Level 29 folder. Give it a fly through and let me know what you think!

Flew through it, and what can I say - another gorgeous level. You're really good at this, and all your levels have something to them that I haven't seen with any other designer. Great geometry and detailing as always, with texturing to match.

The only gripe I have is the slightly unorthodox usage of a monitor in its self-destruct animation, which means it can't be popped and is in general a nonstandard practice. The level also either has rather few secrets (all being simple one cube-doors) or I simply haven't found more. Also, the route to the exit is only just long enough to exit on Insane - I had exactly 60 seconds left down from the initial 90, and I did use trichording. Oh, it only just occurred to me that the Afterburner is a thing, lol

So all in all a great level, I'll mark it on the list as layout finished.

The D2 portion of the mission is shaping up to be amazingly high-level from the levels we've seen so far. The ice levels in particular are looking amazing.

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:21 pm

Xfing wrote:

The only gripe I have is the slightly unorthodox usage of a monitor in its self-destruct animation, which means it can't be popped and is in general a nonstandard practice. The level also either has rather few secrets (all being simple one cube-doors) or I simply haven't found more. Also, the route to the exit is only just long enough to exit on Insane - I had exactly 60 seconds left down from the initial 90, and I did use trichording. Oh, it only just occurred to me that the Afterburner is a thing, lol

Alright, WARNING lights are gone. Didn't realize they weren't breakable, I always forget! Just thought they looked cool

You are correct, we're a bit light on secrets. There were only four, but I've added one more with the addition of the replacement monitors for WARNING, totaling us at 5 unless I'm forgetting one.

I was not considering the exit path on Insane, I typically test on Rookie or Hotshot. At this point I'm not sure I can think of/have the cubes to make an alternate. Theoretically, the existing exit could become a secret exit? Or just a bigger secret area, and the real exit relocated. New map is on Dropbox now.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:57 am

Kaizerwolf wrote:
You are correct, we're a bit light on secrets. There were only four, but I've added one more with the addition of the replacement monitors for WARNING, totaling us at 5 unless I'm forgetting one.

That is quite alright, it's not like all levels in Counterstrike had elaborate secrets either. To be fair though, Descent 2 gives amazing possibilities for secret making, surpassing even those from Doom, and we all know Doom wouldn't really be Doom without the secrets

Too bad they don't tag like they do in Doom, eh?

I was not considering the exit path on Insane, I typically test on Rookie or Hotshot. At this point I'm not sure I can think of/have the cubes to make an alternate. Theoretically, the existing exit could become a secret exit? Or just a bigger secret area, and the real exit relocated. New map is on Dropbox now.

It's quite fine, really. There are no matcens or other obstacles on the way, so the exit is reachable. But an afterburner is mandatory, we'll just have to make sure to put it in the level in a non-secret fashion so that anyone can reach the exit in time.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:25 am

It'll bring back memories of a couple other long exit runs...

Descent 1 and 2 had some really good examples themselves after all.
...
Midi-wise I think it likes either Descent 1 13 or 19.

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:34 pm

Xfing did you find the secret with the level entry doors? I have the cubes to make them slightly more interesting, if need be.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:50 pm

Kaizerwolf wrote:Xfing did you find the secret with the level entry doors? I have the cubes to make them slightly more interesting, if need be.

I'll do it tomorrow evening or on Friday morning. Tomorrow's kinda busy

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:41 pm

I'm putting together a list of DCA songs (and some other songs from current and former members of this board which I may be able to... acquire... for our use) for the some of the levels we already have, the same way you've listed the midi tracks for some maps. It's probably a good idea to put my ideas for that in writing the same way you did after all. I can share the list at some point if you have any ideas for this side of the soundtrack Xfing. Or you, Kaizerwolf, for that matter -- you also have some experience in this type of thing.

I forget if I mentioned that Planetary Life Research was designed primarily with Class 1 Drillers in mind. I was posting something on the Overload boards that jogged my memory, and I'd better make sure you know that level has a heck of a lot of places built specifically to give drillers the drop on the player sometime before you repopulate it. I doubt that sort of thing is obvious from just looking at it in the editor after you've emptied it.

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:05 am

Alter-Fox wrote:
I forget if I mentioned that Planetary Life Research was designed primarily with Class 1 Drillers in mind. I was posting something on the Overload boards that jogged my memory, and I'd better make sure you know that level has a heck of a lot of places built specifically to give drillers the drop on the player sometime before you repopulate it. I doubt that sort of thing is obvious from just looking at it in the editor after you've emptied it.

remind me to hate you for this level when the set launches

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:05 pm

You won't need reminding...

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:53 am

Anyone know how Sirius is doing with Glacierspire?

Edit: Just had a thought about songs.
Ceres: D1 level 19
Makemake: D1 level 18
Aqua Distillata: D1 level 17
Wing: D1 level 4

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:29 pm

Yeah I think D1 4 or 5 could work for that one.
Makemake has a really creepy feeling and it would be cool if the music complimented that. 18 is one of the "happier" sounding songs in the game so I'm not so sure.
And I'll refrain from commenting on songs for levels that haven't even begun mind-gestation.