DescentBB

I've joined the minuteman project and hopfully will be heading to Southern California in the middle of May to avoid the blistering heat of the summer. Hopefully tension doesn't escalate between now and then or my wife may change her mind about letting me go.

B-

This topic seems to get more and more traction each and every spring when its lovely outside, but then compltetely fads away come july when its 110+.

You guys should use knockout darts.... just shoot em and drop em off on the other side of the border.

double.

You're right, Goob
.. I can't take the heat much in my old age. But, at least I'm doing something rather than sitting around bi***ing about the problem.

Why don't we hire the minutemen to inspect the other 95% of shipping containers that make it to this country. 99% of the Mexicans crossing the border are looking for work, not atomic materials

We should just hire illegals to do this job.

What is the all the hubbub about with these immigrants anyways? Jobs? Security?

its about protecting jobs no american would take unless they had a gun pointed to their head, regardless of wage.

Good for you Fusion. Nice to see someone actually doing something.

Zuruck, the hubbub is not about jobs or security revolving around immigrants. the word \"immigrant\" connotates a legal process of emmigrating to our country to become a citizen. The hubbub is about people sneaking into the country illegally. Do you condone illegal entry into our homeland?

actually, if you want to blame someone, blame the corporations who hire illegals.

you know in new orleans, a bunch of americans wanted to work to clean up their city.. then two weeks later were dismissed because the company chose to use the mexicans who were willing to work for less.

Economy will crumble if they are stopped. Ferno's right...why pay an american a quarter when a mexican will do it for a dime right?

Don't get me started on off-shoring tech jobs!

and manufacturing jobs.

all that's really left is fast food and knowledge industries to name two. Fast food, you can't really outsorce. The knowledge industry will be gone once another country becomes the knowledge leader.

so all that'll be left (the ones i can think of right now), would be construction, flipping burgers, and logistics. anything that requires physical work.

Which is exactly why the only jobs available are at places like Best Buy.....

Richard Cranium wrote:Don't get me started on off-shoring tech jobs!

Ok, I won't, but watch this anyways.

Economy will crumble if they are stopped. Ferno's right...why pay an american a quarter when a mexican will do it for a dime right?

That's so not true..

We pay that illegal a dime to do the job. Fine.. sounds like cheap labor. Consider that the cost of our healthcare has risen along with the cost of auto insurance, etc. In our area(California's Central Valley- the very heart of the Ag industry and the 6th largest economy) there are multiple hospitols that cannot keep their doors open much longer because they're not getting paid.. why, you ask? because they're required to provide care to anyone who walks through their door and, last year, 37% were illegals that will not pay. They use false I.D's, SSN's, etc. to get care, but the bill goes to a phantom.. who do you think absorbs that cost?
Insurance? heh.. I have 3 friends in the past 9 months who have been hit by illegals. One came into his lane with a huge truck and ripped his fender off.. another one plowed into the back of a buddies boat while he was a stop light and knocked the teak swimstep through the transom.. the other hit my buddies absolutely mint '71 240z he'd JUST finished restoring.. None of them had insurance. once again, who do you think absorbs the cost? In those 3 accidents alone the damage was well over 15k- add that to the cost of your .10 cent labor.

The ripple effect goes much further than simply the cost of produce.

one question that needs to be addressed is: why are so many immigrants taking the illegal route? what is stopping them from going through the legal channels?

Ferno wrote:one question that needs to be addressed is: why are so many immigrants taking the illegal route? what is stopping them from going through the legal channels?

Because they're too lazy to wait for the paperwork to go through. Fuckers piss me off too. If its soo ★■◆●ing bad, then stay there and make yer own damn country better instead of stirring up trouble in ours. I'm sorry, but if you're too lazy to come over legally, I have no sympathy for you.

So if all of these illegals had their paperwork filed correctly, nobody would mind them?

Jeff250 wrote:So if all of these illegals had their paperwork filed correctly, nobody would mind them?

Actually, I'm in favor of open borders. If you want to be a CITIZEN, and can prove you aren't a criminal or carrying any dreaded diseases. Come on over! Of course, I would ALSO abolish welfare. It's not fair to bring people in from a country where their income was a few hundred bucks a year (at best) and offer them the choice?
Which would you rather do, work and make a fortune beyond your dreams? Or not work and get more money every month than you made in a year in your old country.

Offer that deal to me, and I would be one VERY unproductive citizen. Eliminate welfare and an influx of legal immigrants has ALWAYS helped to make this country strong.

Conservatives want to spread democracy in the Middle east, and are willing to spread it with guns and bombs whether the folks are interested or not. But they seem strangely reluctant to offer democracy to people who are right here and begging to come in. I'm at a bit of a loss understanding that point.

Kilarin, we can't abolish welfare...but we have to fix it and get the corruption out. I'm sorry, but if someone gets canned and needs some dough, I'm pleased that this country will give them some money. What I hate are the people on it for years, intentionally ripping off the system.

I didn't realize that illegals got on welfare? If they tried to file, wouldn't the INS figure out that they aren't Americans and deport them? I don't know, I just haven't figured out why Mexicans are such a big worry that we have average citizens arming themselves and guarding the border. Never seemed like it was that big of a deal. You even speak Spanish Barry?

It's a really tough issue. Especially when you start dealing with health care, auto insurance, etc. What is the goverment supposed to do? You can't throw them all in jail- the jails are already too full. You can't cart them back to their country- that would cost millions in transportation and man hours, just to have them re-enter the next day. I know that they just try night after night until they get through. You can't fine them, because they won't pay.

When it comes to health care, you can't demand cash on site- that would be denying health care to hundreds of people who will legitamately pay, but don't have the cash. You can't be racist, targetting hispanics to demend payment in cash. I just don't see how it can be fixed- because it seems there isn't anything we can do to provide enough motive for them not to enter.

Zuruch wrote:Kilarin, we can't abolish welfare

I'm not denying that eliminating welfare will cause problems, but HAVING it causes more. Welfare is INEVITABLY full of inefficency and corruption. It's run by the government after all.

Zuruck,
They apply and receive welfare, WIC, etc here..The government gives it to them.

Do I speak Spanish? Or am I able to speak Spanish?
I can speak enough Spanish to get by, but I don't. About 50%(maybe more) of the customers that come into the store are Spanish speaking. It's always the same thing- it goes like this EVERY FREEKING TIME!!

Me-Hey there, can I help you?

Them-\"Speak Spanish?(in a heavy accent)\"

Me- No(followed by a dirty look and me walking away)

Them- \"okay, do you have any xxxxxx\"

Me- Oh, sure I have those.

They try to force me to speak Spanish and I refuse.If it were just a couple I wouldn't mind. But it's every single one of them.I'm not exaggerating one bit. There are emplyees(Arnold & Carlos) there that Speak fluent Spanish and refuse to help them unless they speak English.. yes, it's that bad.

Fusion Pimp wrote:They try to force me to speak Spanish and I refuse

I'm with you that we need to make certain the people who come over here are legal. And I would agree entirely that English is the official language and all government documentation should be in English. BUT, I'm going to have to disagree with this point in general.

They didn't try to FORCE you to speak spanish, they politely asked. Not learning English is a disadvantage to them, but I don't see how asking if you speak spanish is in any way an insult to you.

Here's why it's insulting- They're attempting(edit- actually, there's no attempt about it) to speak Spanish in a place where everyone speaks English and they know it. Basically they're refusing to assimilate. If they didn't speak English it would be a different story and I wouldn't be so insulted.

If you go to France and speak French fluently, are you going to approach the counter speaking English? It's simply rude..

To throw a twist in- There is no offical language of the U.S.

Fusion pimp wrote:Here's why it's insulting- They're attempting to speak Spanish in a place where everyone speaks English and they know it. Basically they're refusing to assimilate. If they didn't speak English it would be a different story and I wouldn't be so insulted.

man, every time I heard someone speaking chinese or some other far eastern language right beside me when they know they're in an english speaking country just pisses me right off to no end.

you're in a place where people speak english. speak it already! If not, go back to china or whatever country you're from. If you can't be bothered to make the effort to communicate in the country's offical language, I don't want you here.

Ferno,
The United States of America doesn't have an official language. English is the accepted language, though.

I believe that everyone here should speak the native tounge.

Navaho.

yá'át'ééh!

Ferno wrote:man, every time I heard someone speaking chinese or some other far eastern language right beside me when they know they're in an english speaking country just pisses me right off to no end.

Too many times I was speaking techy/computer/science jargon and someone in the room asked me to speak English so they could understand. I'm sorry, but if you can't keep up, thats your problem, and why were you listening in anyway?

If I were in France, and I happened to speak fluent French, I would STILL probably speak English to my wife and kid. If the sound of a foreign tounge offends you, sorry, tough, quit trying to listen in on my conversations then.

Just to reiterate, I think it is FOOLISH for someone to move to the US and not learn English. But I happen to find Spanish beautiful and interesting. I'm not offended in the least when someone speaks it around me and am trying to learn more for my own education. Someone who lives here and can't speak English is hurting themselves, but they are in no way harming me.

old joke:
In Europe, if you speak 4 or more languages you are polylingual.
If you speak 3 languages you are trilingual.
If you speak 2 languages you are bilingual.
And if you speak only one language... You must be a visiting American.

Fusion pimp wrote:Ferno,
The United States of America doesn't have an official language. English is the accepted language, though.

i never said 'official'.

kil, tech jargon isn't a language, in the traditional sense.

ustedes gringos - me hacen reir muchisimo. gracias!

speak english, ★■◆●!

Someone has a book out that explains how english (or for that fact, any countries native language) is the glue that binds our country togeather. By having a dual language (you know...push one for english, push two for spanish) creates a fragmented country. Kinda like the Balkans where you have Serb,Yugo,Albanian all spoken in one small region. I whole heartedly agree with Ferno. It all starts with those who hire illegals. Dry up the jobs and most of the problem will disappear. Going thru the legal immigration process also requires you to learn english. I'd stop the whole bi-lingual program as set up by state and federal agencies.
This whole notion that mexicans are the only ones that will do certain jobs is a myth. When I was 12 (ya and that was a while ago) to make money in the summer I worked for the local vegetable stand. Worked out in the fields picking beans and tomatoes. Funny thing is, all of us white boys out there didn't think it was beneath us to do that kinda work.
What sums this all up is a statement be a former auto union leader by the name of Walter Ruther. He said, \"Fine, go ahead and make all your plants so they are totally robotic. Who will then buy your cars?\"
I will let you extrapolate Ruthers statement to the illegal immigration problem.

Ferno wrote:tech jargon isn't a language, in the traditional sense.

No, but the same basic principle applies. People seem to get unreasonably upset if they can't understand what you are saying, even if they weren't part of the conversation. They want to limit YOU because of their own limits. Back up in history a bit and EVERY educated person was expected to be multilingual. Read old books and they wander off into french, latin, greek, even arabic, at any odd moment, and expect that their educated readers can follow. Nowadays instead of being ashamed that we are too stupid to understand, we blame the speaker/author for "Not talking English"

woodchip wrote:By having a dual language (you know...push one for english, push two for spanish) creates a fragmented country.

I'm all for making certain that all of the immigrants to this country go through legal chanels, and kicking out those who don't. But I am diametrically opposed to any attempt to keep our "culture" pure, which is what I seem to keep hearing from people who are upset about the immigration issue.

They aren't satisfied to just make certain immigrants are legal, they want to make certain they don't bring their own culture over with them. Sorry, but absorbing lots of different cultures is exactly what made this country strong. We absorb words from their languages, we adopt some of their holidays, we borrow from their unique architechture, music, and foods. And in the end, They become part of us, and Our culture becomes stronger, richer, and more interesting.

To take it from another angle, any attempt to "defend" our culture is doomed, because we will not be able to agree on what aspects of our culture are good. Many complain about hearing mexican music being played, but, quite frankly, the roots of Rock come from Africa, shall we eliminate that type of music? People don't like to hear spanish being spoken in the streets. I'm from Texas, The name of the town I get my mail from is spanish, half of the rivers have spanish names, and we happen to LIKE it, try to change them and we'd get quite annoyed with you.

And to hit most specifically on the language point. English has the largest vocabulary of any language on the planet. By FAR. Why? Because, unlike the French, no one is busy protecting the purity of the English language. It didn't start pure.

First there were the Picts, then the Romans came, killed the men, raped the women, and their children spoke a mixed up language. After that came the Angles, the Saxons, the Jutes, and more. Same story. Each group killed, raped, and raised kids who spoke an ever more mixed up language. Eventually the Normans did their raping and pillaging and Norman blended into the English tounge.

At one point in English history, English was forbidden to be used as a language in the English court. Why? Because it was a Bastard tounge, a pidgeon composed of bits and pieces of half a dozen languages. But it turns out that English had a remarkable Hybrid vigor. The RICHNESS of that language became it's strength. And now it is, arguably, the "common" tounge of mankind. and it grows daily. It doesn't need any defense, and if people want to speak spanish, or german, or french, or swahili around me, they will not be doing the english language any harm. We'll just absorb a few more words and end up all the richer.

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." [James D. Nicoll]

i never said 'official'.

If you can't be bothered to make the effort to communicate in the country's offical language, I don't want you here.

Jeff250 wrote:So if all of these illegals had their paperwork filed correctly, nobody would mind them?

If by "paperwork filed correctly" you mean "would have auto insurance, and would have their employers provide health insurance according to applicable laws" then I certainly wouldn't mind them.

What I mind is the fact that, while many of them are willing to work for cheap, they're not *really* working for cheap because they're getting "free" health care (at my expense) and so on. Their employers get cheap labor, but the rest of us end up paying the difference.

I don't mind immigrants one bit, whether they're immigrants from Mexico or China or Iraq or Australia. But please, let's make the law apply equally to everyone -- if I have to have car insurance, they should have to have car insurance too. If I have to have health insurance, they should have to have health insurance too. If they can work for $3 an hour, I should be able to compete at $3 an hour too. And if I'm subject to background checks to make sure I'm not a crazed terrorist, they should be subject to background checks too.

Current immigration policy is hopelessly broken. So are most of the supposed fixes proposed by anyone from any political party. But there's got to be a better way to handle immigration.

X2 to Kilarins whole post.

They aren't satisfied to just make certain immigrants are legal, they want to make certain they don't bring their own culture over with them. Sorry, but absorbing lots of different cultures is exactly what made this country strong.

Uh, are you suggesting that we are wrong for attemtping to secure *our* culture on *our* soil?

I'm not aware of any American's down in mexico burning their flag.

I didn't attend school in Mexico and create such an unsettled environment that the school board had to had to ban all forms of patriotic attire, including anything that resembled a flag.

I didn't parade on a college campus in Mexico, pull down their flag and replace it with mine.

Yeah, let's embrace folks who, since the moment they set foot on U.S soil, commited an illegal act.

Bring your culture and once you become a citizen I support your right to live your life as you wish- but, don't try to change mine.

I mean, the school system requiring the teachers to instruct non-English speaking who are in a school where the majority of students speak english is good for diversity, right? Nevermind the fact that they have to work at the pace of the slower student, thus dragging everyone down.. or should all our children be forced to learn Spanish so the class can resume a normal pace?

Please, bring your political curruption with you, we don't have enough of that in the U.S and it will make our country stronger.

Instead of calling them illegal immigrants, I'm going to call them \"criminal invaders\".When a group of people migrate in such overwhelming numbers and disrupt the quality of life of current citizens, it's an invasion. I'm looking forward to May 1st when they take the day off to show us citizens just how valuable they are. Take the week off- a year, please. I'm pretty sure we'll do just fine without them, it worked for a few hundred years. I'm sure Mexico would appreciate their undeniable value..If they're poor and in need of help like their supporters suggest- they couldn't afford to take the day off. I look forward to a day without criminals, however.

Go home, which isn't the United States of America.... that is, until you become a citizen. I'll welcome you at that time.

And in the end, They become part of us, and Our culture becomes stronger, richer, and more interesting.

You're backward- in the current state of affairs, we are becoming part of them. If they should bring their culture as you suggest, but they refuse to assimilate, how are they becoming part of us?

You're post sounds wonderfully humanitarian-ish, but lacks continuity.