DescentBB

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:24 pm**

HISPANIC LEADERS SPEAK OUT!

Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets; \"Go back to Boston! Go back to
Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and
tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old
white people. It is your duty to die . . Through love of having
children, we are going to take over.

Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council. \"They're afraid we're
going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions.
They're right. We will take them over . . . We are here to stay.\"

Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico, \"The American
Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico
without firing a single shot.\"

Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas; \"We have an
aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The
explosion is in our population . . . I love it. They are shitting in
their pants with fear. I love it.\"

Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party,
\"Remember 187--proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to
non-citizens--was the last gasp of white America in California.\"

Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor, \"We are
politicizing every single one of these new citizens that are becoming
citizens of this country . . . I gotta tell you that a lot of people are
saying, \"I'm going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them
back.\"

Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and
California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under
Governor Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by
President Bill Clinton, \"California is going to be a Hispanic state.
Anyone who doesn't like it should leave.\"

Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General , \"We are practicing
'La Reconquista' in California.\"

Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University; \"We need
to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos . . . \"

Are these just the words of a few extremists? Consider that we
could fill up many pages with such quotes. Also, consider that these
are mainstream Mexican leaders.

THE U.S. VS MEXICO:
On February 15, 1998, the U.S. and Mexican soccer teams met at
the Los Angeles Coliseum. The crowd was overwhelmingly pro-Mexican even
though most lived in this country. They booed during the National
Anthem and U.S. flags were held upside down. As the match progressed,
supporters of the U.S. team were insulted, pelted with projectiles,
punched and spat upon. Beer and trash were thrown at the U.S. players
before and after the match. The coach of the U.S. team, Steve Sampson
said, \"This was the most painful experience I have ever had in this
profession.\"

Did you know that immigrants from Mexico and other non-European
countries can come to this country and get preferences in jobs,
education, and government contracts? It's called affirmative action or
racial privilege. The Emperor of Japan or the President of Mexico could
migrate here and immediately be eligible for special rights unavailable
for Americans of European descent. Recently, a vote was taken in the
U.S. Congress to end this practice. It was defeated. Every single
Democratic senator except Ernest Hollings voted to maintain special
privileges for Hispanic, Asian and African immigrants. They were joined
by thirteen Republicans. Bill Clinton and Al Gore have repeatedly
stated that they believe that massive immigration from countries like
Mexico is good. They have also backed special privileges for these
immigrants.

Corporate America has signed on to the idea that minorities and
third world immigrants should get special, privileged status. Some
examples are Exxon, Texaco, Merrill Lynch, Boeing, Paine Weber,
Starbucks and many more.

DID YOU KNOW?:
Did you know that Mexico regularly intercedes on the side of the
defense in criminal cases involving Mexican nationals? Did you know
that Mexico has almost NEVER extradited a Mexican national accused of murder in
the U.S. in spite of agreements to do so? According to the L.A. Times,
Orange County, California is home to 275 gangs with 17,000 members; 98%
of which are Mexican and Asian. How's your county doing?

According to a New York Times article dated May 19, 1994, 20
years after the great influx of legal immigrants from Southeast Asia,
30% are still on welfare compared to 8% of households nationwide. A
Wall Street Journal editorial dated December 5, 1994 quotes law
enforcement officials as stating that Asian mobsters are the \"greatest
criminal challenge the country faces.\" Not bad for a group that is
still under 5% of the population.

Is education important to you? Here are the words of a teacher
who spent over 20 years in the Los Angeles School system. \"Imagine
teachers in classes containing 30-40 students of widely varying
attention spans and motivation, many of whom aren't fluent in
English. Educators seek learning materials likely to reach the majority
of students and that means fewer words and math problems and more
pictures and multicultural references.\"

WHEN I WAS YOUNG:
When I was young, I remember hearing about the immigrants that
came through Ellis Island. They wanted to learn English. They wanted
to breath free. They wanted to become Americans. Now too many
immigrants come here with demands. They demand to be taught in their
own language. They demand special privileges--affirmative action. They
demand ethnic studies that glorify their culture.

HOW CAN YOU HELP?:
For one, you can pass this on to others

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:58 pm**

So the problem is not the immigrants but the system ..

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:19 am**

Grendel wrote:So the problem is not the immigrants but the system ..

Well you could put it that way, but if you fix the system you'll piss off the immigrants because the system works just fine for them.

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:03 am**

Weren't we all immigrants at one time or another? Welcome to the changing north american way.

We've had this same problem with the French here and also new immigrants. They get benefits up the wazoo. Free language lessons etc. Sickens me to death. Then people like me (100% CDN) have a hard time finding a job cause the gov't wants women or visible minorities.

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:16 am**

Sex change. (bonus for transgendered !!)
Then get a tan.

Just kidding.

Yeah, we are pretty much all from immigrant stock. Me: 100% American, but ...
fathers side - 4th generation Alsace and 7th generation Ulster Irish
mothers side - 3rd generation German and 10th generation English
After the new immigrants have been here for a few generations, then they intermarry and cultural identities become more complex. Not to mention that as they become more prosperous, they tend to start having smaller families. As for the politician's comment; eh, they're just slummin' for votes.

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:29 am**

This is a problem here. I don't think it is as serious as this letter makes it out to be. Take for instance all the riots that came of the new proposal against imigrants. It's only the imigrants protesting this but the protesting worked.

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:58 am**

CDN_Merlin wrote:We've had this same problem with the French here and also new immigrants. They get benefits up the wazoo. Free language lessons etc. Sickens me to death. Then people like me (100% CDN) have a hard time finding a job cause the gov't wants women or visible minorities.

The French got here first, you know, but I agree with you about being at a disadvantage by being a white canadian. It reeks of statist socialism. I say the easiest way to stop all discrimination, particularily against the minorities, is to give them no preference. Now I say that the discrimination is against the minorities becuase now the majority resents them, but if they had to go through the same process as us, there wouldn't be a 'them and us' scenario.

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:30 pm**

My beef with this is if we went to THIER country and asked for the same rights, do you think we would get them? NO F*CKING WAY. Why should we have to change our laws and cultures to suit them? Fack them, they moved here and should adapt to our way of life. Not the other way around.

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:45 pm**

CDN_Merlin wrote:My beef with this is if we went to THIER country and asked for the same rights, do you think we would get them? NO F*CKING WAY. Why should we have to change our laws and cultures to suit them? Fack them, they moved here and should adapt to our way of life. Not the other way around.

X2

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:13 pm**

I support border control. I support immigration reform.

I find that article to be largely fear-mongering ignorant BS.

WTF was that bit about the soccer game? The same thing happens to the Dallas Cowboy fans at every game played in Philly.

And to ANYONE feeling outraged at immigrants who don't seem to be assimilating (last two posters in particular), consider this:

The aboriginal population of this continent was methodically wiped out by white people, Latino and Anglo Saxon.

You want to have a rational debate about solving problems with the border and immigration? Try acknowledging history first. You may find you are 100 % hypocrite before anything else.

It's a round planet - let's find a way to live together without perpetuating the problem.

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:27 pm**

You must be hispanic.

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:46 pm**

wrong, i am whitey con blancura

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:36 pm**

Palzon wrote:It's a round planet - let's find a way to live together

Agreed. btw - this would make a nice T-shirt.

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:09 pm**

Palzon wrote:I support border control. I support immigration reform.
I find that article to be largely fear-mongering ignorant BS.

That about sums it up for me!

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:10 pm**

Kilarin wrote:
Palzon wrote:I support border control. I support immigration reform.
I find that article to be largely fear-mongering ignorant BS.
That about sums it up for me!

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:20 am**

Palzon wrote:And to ANYONE feeling outraged at immigrants who don't seem to be assimilating (last two posters in particular), consider this:

The aboriginal population of this continent was methodically wiped out by white people, Latino and Anglo Saxon.

You want to have a rational debate about solving problems with the border and immigration? Try acknowledging history first. You may find you are 100 % hypocrite before anything else.

It's a round planet - let's find a way to live together without perpetuating the problem.

I fail to see how anyone is responsible for what other white people did... People are responsible for their actions, and they should not have to accept responsibility for those of the dead that they had no control over. It's not hypocritical.

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:13 pm**

you have a sense of entitlement, but no sense of history. everything you fear losing is something stolen more violently and more treacherously from the aboriginal people than anything you or i could possibly face from some disenfranchised latin americans.

we should not let illegal aliens run roughshod over our borders or laws. we should seal the border to illegal immigrants. but we should also reform immigration law so that people who can be productive members of society are able to have a fair chance at coming to america.

you are wrong to think there is no connection to the past. this country was stolen from the aboriginal people, plain and simple. In the process, the aboriginal people were murdered in cold blood, men women, and children.

why should anyone who wants to come here respect our claim to sovereignty or manifest destiny when it was established by murder and treachery?

some of the illegals are here due to extreme poverty or even political oppression in their country of origin. Can you blame them for wanting to be here?

There are two problems here: Illegal immigration and the government ignoring illegal immigration. The second one is the outrage, not the first. the government needs to address it; soberly, rationally, and with an eye to how future generations will peacefully coexist. As it stands the government has turned a blind eye to the situation for decades.

If we take a militant stance against the illegals in this country it will serve one purpose - we will be creating a more militant resistance where none had existed. mark my words. if we tried to deport peope in force some would resist by force. we will end up like the French with the muslims.

one thing that has struck me is that the organized protests i've seen in this country have all been peaceful. maybe there have been exceptions to this, but in general there has been no violence or disorder. these are by and large peaceful people. most of them could be useful productive members of our society.

instead of turning them into villains. how about we devise policies that help to integrate them into our society instead of further marginalizing (or militarizing them). how about we try to devise policies that will put people to work so they don't need handouts.

by coming here, the illegals have broken the civil law. This transgression can be forgiven if the illegals can be productive members of society who abide by the criminal law. those who break the criminal law should be treated no differently than our own homegrown criminals.

yet how can we fault them for conceiving of coming to america as their own \"manifest destiny\"? Our manifest destiny was realized through theft and murder. these people just want a better life without hurting anyone.

if you point to some inherent difference between us and them, then accept the fact you are a hypocrite and a racist. if you see that we are basically the same, that we have the same hopes to better ourselves and our families - then you realize these people can make as a great a contribution to our nation as any others.

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:24 pm**

Word Palzon!

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:43 pm**

Palzon wrote:you have a sense of entitlement, but no sense of history. everything you fear losing is something stolen more violently and more treacherously from the aboriginal people than anything you or i could possibly face from some disenfranchised latin americans.

Ah. So everything, like land, that has ever been 'stolen' from people can no longer be held legitimately by those now occupying it. Tell me now: what piece of land has never been fought over? What piece of land has never had blood spilt for it other than maybe the poles? What sort of claim do you (or should I say can you) hold on any land? Where does this sort of rediculous reasoning end?

My 'sense of entitlement' is nothing more than an expectation of respect from those currently living. I care nothing for the opinions of the dead. I expect people to behave in a certain manner towards me if I have always acted in a certain manner towards them. I don't have anything against them in particular save the fact they cause certain issues that complicate my life. I have never thought that illegals were neccesarily bad people, but they do cause problems that could be avoided if the US border's soverignity was enforced.

Mexico is not forced to allow illegal immigrants, neither is any other country, so far as I know. Why does the US's soverienty in this case just disappear? It's inconvient? It's wrong? Perhaps that is so in some cases, but that does not eliminate the right to refuse entrance on private property, and I daresay that the US does have the right to refuse entry.

we should not let illegal aliens run roughshod over our borders or laws. we should seal the border to illegal immigrants. but we should also reform immigration law so that people who can be productive members of society are able to have a fair chance at coming to america.

'Our' borders? Are we being funny here, or what? I thought you said that it's hypocritical to think of 'our' land, 'our' land being stolen violently from the Amerinds? By your logic, what right have you to refuse them entry?

you are wrong to think there is no connection to the past. this country was stolen from the aboriginal people, plain and simple. In the process, the aboriginal people were murdered in cold blood, men women, and children.

Guess what? The people who were murdered, and those who murdered them are dead and gone. Their crimes to not pass on to their sons, nor their daughters. Unless you have a really interesting moral system, what happened to the amerinds 200 years ago is morally irrelevant to today's situation.

why should anyone who wants to come here respect our claim to sovereignty or manifest destiny when it was established by murder and treachery?

Because, perhaps, no one's claim is exactly pure from that stain?

I might remind you that I certaintly had nothing to do with 'murder and treachery.'

some of the illegals are here due to extreme poverty or even political oppression in their country of origin. Can you blame them for wanting to be here?

Nope. I can blame them for violating the law though.

There are two problems here: Illegal immigration and the government ignoring illegal immigration. The second one is the outrage, not the first. the government needs to address it; soberly, rationally, and with an eye to how future generations will peacefully coexist. As it stands the government has turned a blind eye to the situation for decades.

I agree.

If we take a militant stance against the illegals in this country it will serve one purpose - we will be creating a more militant resistance where none had existed. mark my words. if we tried to deport peope in force some would resist by force. we will end up like the French with the muslims.

Take any hard stance and it will be opposed. Why do you think that the newsmedia doesn't actually say anything anymore? Why politicians rarely do anything substantial? They follow your advice. It doesn't help much.

one thing that has struck me is that the organized protests i've seen in this country have all been peaceful. maybe there have been exceptions to this, but in general there has been no violence or disorder. these are by and large peaceful people. most of them could be useful productive members of our society.

No doubt they could, if they were willing to respect the law.

instead of turning them into villains. how about we devise policies that help to integrate them into our society instead of further marginalizing (or militarizing them). how about we try to devise policies that will put people to work so they don't need handouts.

People here already, that's fine. Why should it apply to people who are attempting illegal entry?

by coming here, the illegals have broken the civil law. This transgression can be forgiven if the illegals can be productive members of society who abide by the criminal law. those who break the criminal law should be treated no differently than our own homegrown criminals.

Civil law is worth less than criminal? Yes, criminal is more significant than civil law because there is danger of human rights violations, but in this case you have willing, intentional violations of civil law. The people that try to enter illegally know the consequences; they should be prepared to accept them.

yet how can we fault them for conceiving of coming to america as their own "manifest destiny"? Our manifest destiny was realized through theft and murder. these people just want a better life without hurting anyone.

I'm glad they want a better life. Why don't they try to abide by the 'not hurting anyone' rule first though. Currently, my tax dollars are supporting citizens from another country who have violated the law and are being allowed to continue doing so. Is it just because they're a 'minority'? Racism works both ways.

if you point to some inherent difference between us and them, then accept the fact you are a hypocrite and a racist. if you see that we are basically the same, that we have the same hopes to better ourselves and our families - then you realize these people can make as a great a contribution to our nation as any others.

I can point to the fact that they are not citizens of the US and I am. I couldn't really care less what race they are. If they want to come here, then abide by the rules. If they aren't willing to do so, tough. Rules are not made to be broken.

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:49 pm**

Word!

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:30 pm**

Yep. The rhetoric is being ratcheted up by both sides. This is gonna get good.

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:11 pm**

Dedman wrote:Yep. The rhetoric is being ratcheted up by both sides. This is gonna get good.

I wasn't really annoyed by him until he started saying that the US does not have a right to prevent entry because America was stolen from the American Indians. I mean, I could say the same thing about the Jews - does Israel, as a state, have any right to control its borders? The Jews as a race committed complete genocide on all the Canaanites, men, women and children, giving the excuse that God told them to do it. Sounds similar to 'manifest destiny.' I figure that kind of thing is a bit worse than what happened to the Indians; at least some Indians survived.

So: I am not responsible for the sins of someone else, the dead do not own property, and I live here now. Unless I commit a crime, no one has a right to stop me from not allowing people on to my land or my country. The citizens decide who is allowed into the US, not the illegal immigrants.

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:08 pm**

word Samuel Dravis!

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:38 pm**

Samuel Dravis wrote:I wasn't really annoyed by him until he started saying that the US does not have a right to prevent entry because America was stolen from the American Indians.

not what i said, dude. anyone who reads my post can see i have never said that. i specifically claimed the opposite position, which is that we have every right to secure our borders and control entry to the country.

Samuel Dravis wrote:I mean, I could say the same thing about the Jews - does Israel, as a state, have any right to control its borders? The Jews as a race committed complete genocide on all the Canaanites, men, women and children, giving the excuse that God told them to do it. Sounds similar to 'manifest destiny.' I figure that kind of thing is a bit worse than what happened to the Indians; at least some Indians survived.

start another thread if you want to debate fictions.

Samuel Dravis wrote:So: I am not responsible for the sins of someone else, the dead do not own property, and I live here now. Unless I commit a crime, no one has a right to stop me from not allowing people on to my land or my country. The citizens decide who is allowed into the US, not the illegal immigrants.

As to consistent moral logic, surely it is not yours. By your logic, any person of the world has as much right to our land as any other so long as that claim is backed with sufficient force to make good the effort.

Just to lay bare the bankruptcy of your position - if i come to your home and kill you and take that home, then what is yours becomes mine. if i bring with me sufficient force to change the law of the land, then my crime is no longer a crime. this is what was done to the native american.

the point i have tried to make is that we must learn to live together in peace. my point is that one should not be smug, self-righteous, or quick to comdemn those who desire to come to this country. it IS hypocritical to employ a policy of marginalizing/criminalizing them only to criticize them for failing to assimilate!

as i have already stated and you have ingnored: seal the borders, change the immigration policy, yes.

but at the same time we must expand the borders of our minds to allow those of different cultures and beliefs to live among us in peace. the more we espouse fear and hatred, the more those same evils will be engendered in others against us.

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:49 pm**

\"When I was young, I remember hearing about the immigrants that
came through Ellis Island. They wanted to learn English. They wanted
to breath free. They wanted to become Americans. Now too many
immigrants come here with demands. They demand to be taught in their
own language. They demand special privileges--affirmative action. They
demand ethnic studies that glorify their culture.\"

Tell me what is wrong with the message of this statement.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:26 am**

Lothar wrote:Word Palzon!

X2

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:03 am**

Palzon wrote:As to consistent moral logic, surely it is not yours. By your logic, any person of the world has as much right to our land as any other so long as that claim is backed with sufficient force to make good the effort.

Just to lay bare the bankruptcy of your position - if i come to your home and kill you and take that home, then what is yours becomes mine. if i bring with me sufficient force to change the law of the land, then my crime is no longer a crime. this is what was done to the native american.

Not so. My point was that I did not come into the native's home and kill them. I did not. I do not have a responsibility for those who did. I just filled a vacancy after the previous owner was killed by someone who broke in (who also is dead). Do I bear guilt for that? Nope.

the point i have tried to make is that we must learn to live together in peace. my point is that one should not be smug, self-righteous, or quick to comdemn those who desire to come to this country. it IS hypocritical to employ a policy of marginalizing/criminalizing them only to criticize them for failing to assimilate!

Oh, I agree. I don't condemn anyone for desiring to enter our country. I just condemn illegal actions.

but at the same time we must expand the borders of our minds to allow those of different cultures and beliefs to live among us in peace. the more we espouse fear and hatred, the more those same evils will be engendered in others against us.

So far as I can tell, it's not me that doing the seperation between cultures. I honestly don't care. Cultures are not my problem. Lawbreaking is.

I agree that immigration law needs reform, but just saying that they should have no consequence for their actions when they knew what they were doing cheapens the rule of law.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:14 pm**

VonVulcan wrote:"When I was young, I remember hearing about the immigrants that
came through Ellis Island. They wanted to learn English. They wanted
to breath free. They wanted to become Americans. Now too many
immigrants come here with demands. They demand to be taught in their
own language. They demand special privileges--affirmative action. They
demand ethnic studies that glorify their culture."

Tell me what is wrong with the message of this statement.

This is what I don't like about immigrants in todays times. They DEMAND we give them more than we give our own people. WRONG!!!

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:37 pm**

Merlin, I don't think they ALL demand more...I think the large majority simply want to work and make money to send back to their families. What are you guys so worried about? They aren't going to ruin our \"culture of life\" this is America, we have NO culture. We're a mixed-breed of German, Irish, and every other country on the face of this planet. Get over it, you're not going to stop it, the sooner you realize that the sooner you'll take Spanish 101 at a community college and learn the new mother language

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:51 pm**

POEM - Illegal Immigrants

I cross ocean,
poor and broke,

Take bus,
see employment folk.

Nice man
treat me good in there,
Say I need
go see Welfare.

Welfare say,
\"You come no more,

We send cash
right to your door.\"

Welfare checks,
they make you wealthy,

Medicaid
it keep you healthy!

By and by,
Got plenty money,

Thanks to you,
TAXPAYER dummy.

Write to friends
in motherland,

Tell them
'come, fast as you can'

They come in turbans
and Ford trucks,

I buy big house
with welfare bucks.

They come here,
we live together,

More welfare checks,
it gets better!

Fourteen families,
they moving in,

But neighbor's patience
wearing thin.

Finally, white guy
moves away,
..
I buy his house,
and then I say,

\"Find more aliens
for house to rent.\"

In my yard
I put a tent.

Send for family
they just trash,
...
But they, too,
draw welfare cash!

Everything is
very good,
Soon we own
whole neighborhood.

We have hobby
it called breeding,

Welfare pay
for baby feeding.

Kids need dentist?
Wife need pills?

We get free!
We got no bills!

TAXPAYER crazy!
He pay all year,
To keep welfare
running here.

We think America
darn good place!
Too darn good
for white man race.

If they no like us,
they can scram,
Got lots of room
in Pakistan.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:35 pm**

Why not instead of copying and pasting sensationalist speeches, poems, etc., you write out clearly what your position is and why.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:37 pm**

probably because this echos his views.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:43 pm**

Which are? Is he against all immigration? Illegal immigration? Does he support immigration reform? Amnesty? Closing the borders? Securing the borders? Or is he venting his anger about things that cannot be changed or should not be changed?

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:45 pm**

Jeff250 wrote:Why not instead of copying and pasting sensationalist speeches, poems, etc., you write out clearly what your position is and why.

Ok, here goes.

We need cheap labor. Since it ain't cool to own slaves, let 'em come on in.

Is that clear enough for you

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:57 pm**

Sorry if my posts don't meet with your approval, When I see something, as Duper said, represent my views, I copy it and post it. I am not nearly as eloquent as most of you guys here nor do I have the time to write novels. Your gonna have to take what you get from me or ignore it. Your choice.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:56 am**

Don't let 'em get to you VV. Some of us have lives outside of the internet.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:23 am**

Dedman wrote:Don't let 'em get to you VV. Some of us have lives outside of the internet.

There's life outside the net? Say it ain't so.

DescentBB

Welcome to Mexamerica

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