DescentBB

Gutsy guy, telling a cop he had better protect him, or he would protect himself.

Illegal Immigration opponent creates stir at Cinco de Mayo celebration
http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4870082

While hundreds gathered at Tucson's Kennedy Park to celebrate Cinco de Mayo festivities Saturday, Roy Warden, a man who opposes illegal immigration, stood outside of the event.

Tucson Police informed Warden that the event coordinator prohibited the protestor from entering the property, so he complied, moving his protest to the other side of the park.

A Tucson Police officer handed Warden a letter that said, in part, \"I'm going to serve this letter to you. It's a trespass warning.\"

With that, Warden moved his protest away from the event, taking his message with him.

\"You call them immigrants. They're not immigrants. They're lawbreakers. If we pushed into Mexico, what would you call us? Would you call us immigrants? No, you wouldn't.\"

Several in opposition stood by, hoping to discourage him from burning the Mexican Flag.

Home video shot by a witness captures a threat being made where Warden says, \"You ready to die today, boy? You'd better be ready. Officer, get over here.\"

Seconds later an officer approaches the crowd speaking to Warden and says, \"We're not going to be your personal bodyguard.\"

Warden replies, \"Then I will take care of myself. I have a firearm on my hip and I will not be assaulted, officer.\"

Warden told News 4 he would conduct Mexican flag burning during the Cinco De Mayo celebrations but he did not, Warden said, \"You see there, it's torn into pieces, you see that, you see that, in your face, torn to pieces stepped on the ground.\"

He then left, police and those in opposition watching silently, among them Wade Colwell who said, \"If I can prevent a situation from escalating where maybe families could have been in danger or where an altercation could have broken out, I feel I've done my job because I'm willing to sacrifice that little bit of myself for my community.\"

Roy Warden does have a concealed weapons permit, and despite what was said Saturday police did not make any arrests during the incident, meanwhile Warden says he plans more flag burning in the near future.

Tucson Police say it is legal to burn a Mexican flag though it must be done inside of a grill, otherwise it is considered reckless burning.

Gutsy guy

Perhaps, but he was also incredibly rude and stupid.

I think it is possible to make political statements without deliberatly insulting people, especially people who aren't directly involved. There were, presumably, many LEGAL citizens at the celebration who admire Mexico, have ties to Mexico, may even have dual citizenship with Mexico, and would naturally be insulted by seeing the Mexican flag being desecrated.

Please note, I believe in freedom of speech. I think they guy should have the right to desecrate any flag he wishes. And the right not to be assulted for doing so. But having the RIGHT to do something doesn't change the fact that it was both rude and stupid.

Was he rude? Yes!
Do I agree with him? Yep!

I'm sure he wasn't focusing on the legals since he addressed the ILLEGAL immigration problem. So tell me, Kilarin- what has he done that is so extreme the proponents of illegal immigration haven't?

He does have the RIGHT to do what he did, but the illegals don't even have the RIGHT to be here.

\"You call them immigrants. They're not immigrants. They're lawbreakers. If we pushed into Mexico, what would you call us? Would you call us immigrants? No, you wouldn't.\"

Bingo!

He did nothing illegal and he complied. He did correctly by informing the police that he had a firearm and he didn't wave it around. The cops did good too. Over all it was a successful demonstration. People are always rude and stupid. What do you thing Rush hour traffic is about? Everyone trying to get to work at the same time?? nooooo. It's an early morning and late afternoon community function that gives us the medium to practice and hone our rudeness and stupidity skilz.

The early colonists were pretty rude the British. (er.. i mean before the shooting started.. after too i guess) Rude and stupid are not social sins as political correctness is trying to make it.

So tell me, Kilarin- what has he done that is so extreme the proponents of illegal immigration haven't?

What right does that give him to be rude to people who are NOT here illegaly?

Turn it around. How do you feel when someone who is angry at a few US citizens (Justified or not) burns a flag to make their point? They aren't insulting just those few people who upset them, they are insulting ALL of us, and it tends to make us quite grumpy, and to make us completely ignore whatever point they were trying to make.

So you see, while, as I have made very clear, I am completely in favor of sending illegal immigrants back over the border, I would never burn/rip/desecrate a Mexican flag to make that point, because I don't hate Mexico or Mexicans. And that is EXACTLY what desecrating their flag SAYS. It crosses completely over the line from \"You shouldn't be here illegaly\" into \"I hate you, your country, and everyone there\". And I'm very sorry to hear that people here would support that attitude.

Kilarin wrote:Perhaps, but he was also incredibly rude and stupid.

I think it is possible to make political statements without deliberatly insulting people, especially people who aren't directly involved. There were, presumably, many LEGAL citizens at the celebration who admire Mexico, have ties to Mexico, may even have dual citizenship with Mexico, and would naturally be insulted by seeing the Mexican flag being desecrated....

I think people, legal or otherwise, that are partaking in what was a rally for rude and beligerent criminals demanding we exempt them from the law have no right to complain if someone returns the favor. At least this guy wasn't advocating breaking the law which is what the other protestors were doing by showing support for the illegals demands.

A big part of the protestors message was they intend to take a part of america and our laws be damned! So I'm not at all concerned with their feelings if they support that demand regardless of their citizenship.

I'm pretty sure you'd be sorry to hear other things I support as well.

Will Robinson wrote:people, legal or otherwise, that are partaking in what was a rally for rude and beligerent criminals demanding we exempt them from the law have no right to complain if someone returns the favor.

But that's just the point. It WASN'T a an illegal immigrant rally. It was a Cinco de Mayo celebration. If he wanted to make us believe this was about support for secure borders, then the demonstration did the wrong thing at the wrong place.

Desecrating a Mexican flag doesn't say anything about secure borders, it says "I hate Mexico and all Mexican people". Desecrating a Mexican flag at a Cinco de Mayo celebration says you are making CERTAIN they understand that you hate all of them, not just illegal immigration.

Honestly, do you think it says anything else? When someone burns a US flag, do you think they mean anything else? I support anyones right to burn any flag they wish, that is freedom of speech. But speech is SAYING something, and what you say when you desecrate a flag is "I disrespect this flag, the country it represents, the people who hold it in honor, and everything to do with it"

So far in the immigration debate we've had a lot of mouthing that this isn't about hating Mexicans, it's just about making certain we stop illegal immigration. That's a stance I can stand right with you on. But if what you folks are REALLY supporting is "I hate Mexico and all Mexican people", then I'm afraid I'll have to disagree. Strongly. And I don't see how you could be saying anything else by supporting the desecration of a Mexican flag, ESPECIALLY at a Cinco de Mayo celebration.

I wonder how cocky he would be without his gun, and how many teeth he would have left. He's a disturbed individual who should have his gun taken away and never be allowed to own one again. Thats the type of guy who would blow away someone at a Walmart over a parking space.

I think he purposely went down there to threaten and start an altercation. Threating to kill someone over a flag... brilliant... my fricken hero.

That man is going to kill someone.

Canuck, with his inability to reason, is far more dangerous than a man with a firearm.

Canuck wrote:I think he purposely went down there to threaten and start an altercation. Threating to kill someone over a flag.

Actually, as far as I can tell from the report, he only threatened to draw his gun if he was attacked.

I agree with you that he was incredibly irresponsible to go to a celebration, that is essentially a big family picnic, with the intent to enrage the participants. The risk of a riot was VERY real, and I'm quite surprised that no one got hurt.

So yes, what he did was, and should be, legal. He has a right to freedom of expression. And yes, the people at the celebration shouldn't have threatened him, despite his rude behavior. But a violent response from the participants WAS highly predictable and if a riot had broken out and a bunch of children who were just there to enjoy a picinic had gotten hurt, I feel that the protester would have borne part of the blame.

BUT, he did not draw his weapon. He actions were irresponsible, but not illegal. In the US we don't take your gun away because you are a rude idiot. We only take it away if you actually USE it irresponsibly.

And that is important, because otherwise everyone would be insisting that someone else was really a danger and we should take their guns away. And pretty soon only the government would have guns. And THAT is an idea I find VERY scary.

Whats the reasoning to go down to a park, burn a flag, threaten someone with death, and then spout anti immigration policy to a crowd of legal immigrants celebrating a victory over French invaders?

Please explain, I'm interested how a ranting idiot burning flags at irrelavent functions furthers anything other than hate.

I read up on the history of the celebration and found that the Americans actually rushed to Mexico's aid and even helped to fight. Interesting how time has changed things.
http://www.vivacincodemayo.org/history.htm

What would the borders be like if the French had won?

Canuck wrote:Please explain, I'm interested how a ranting idiot burning flags at irrelavent functions furthers anything other than hate.

Oh, I'm with you 100% on that.

That man has anger issues and is going to shoot someone one day, mark my words.

I can see why the US leads the world in gun deaths by a huge margin.

Kilarin wrote:But that's just the point. It WASN'T a an illegal immigrant rally. It was a Cinco de Mayo celebration. If he wanted to make us believe this was about support for secure borders, then the demonstration did the wrong thing at the wrong place....

My bad, I skimmed the post and assumed it was a rally for legalizing illegal immigration. Not all gatherings on cinco de mayo were the old school celebration they were a continuation of the may 2nd rally in many places and it's been a long time since I've seen a news report on anything related to gatherings of mexican or mexican americans that wasn't all about "Let us in and screw the laws!" so I just took the bait.

I don't think the guy is a screwy as he wants you to think, he seems like he wanted to draw attention to his cause. If he wanted to provoke an assault and then pretend he was just defending himself he wouldn't have announced his possession of a weapon he just would have provoked the crowd and then pulled the gun. I think he announced his weapon to the policeman thinking the cop wouldn't dare leave a lone gunman to defend himself against a mob (which they probably didn't in spite of the cops initial warning that he wasn't going to play bodyguard).

A lot of people are frustrated at the way the criminals get the attention and sympathy of the press and they are trying to bring out the other side of the story.
If he was raiding a true old school cinco de mayo festival then he was ignorant, or as you implied a bigot who didn't care that they weren't demanding a free pass and instead just celebrating the biotch slapping of the french pig Maximilian. I guess we'll have to count on the press to tell us which he was

Please explain, I'm interested how a ranting idiot burning flags at irrelavent functions furthers anything other than hate.

Can you tell me the difference between proponents of illegal immigration coming to our city park while the kids play city league T-ball, block the street while declaring war on the United States of America and flying upside down American flags under Mexico's flag and what this guy did?

Or how about the college in Texas where the students peaceably assemble in order to futher their education be disrupted by protest and American flag burning.

Or how about on my way home last Monday where I was threatened via hand gestures and by passing motorist who were proponents of illegal immigration?

Are these people also idiots futhering hate? or are they lowly illegals who have been victimized by our unfair immigration policy?

barry, i like you. you're a great guy.

but with all due respect, you're also being a raving jackass right now...

Fusion pimp wrote:Can you tell me the difference between proponents of illegal immigration coming to our city park while the kids play city league T-ball, block the street while declaring war on the United States of America and flying upside down American flags under Mexico's flag and what this guy did?

Not a whole lot of difference in my opinion.
And THAT is my point.

Kilarin,

so, you disagree with the illegals protesting as well?

Ferno- why am I being a jackass for exposing the inconsistencies of the politically correct?

Fusion Pimp wrote:so, you disagree with the illegals protesting as well?

In the first place, I disagree with ANY protest that interupts public traffic. You have a right to say what you want, but you can NOT block traffic and force me to listen.

And in the second place, I think it is very counter-productive to protest by insulting the people who you want to vote in your favor.

And in the third place, DUH! They are ILLEGAL. If the INS wasn't such a completely useless waste of air, it would have used the protest to round up and deport people who are in this country illegally.

I have even less respect for the government of Mexico than I do for our own. BUT, I like Mexicans, I like much about Mexican culture, its a big part of my OWN culture here in Texas. And, sick as our governmet is right now, it is STILL a darn site better than what they have in Mexico, and I have no problems letting anyone who is not sick or a criminal escape that mess and become a citizen of the US. I can't think of any easier way to spread democracy.

But they have to become LEGAL CITIZENS. Pay taxes like everyone else. Follow the rules like everyone else. And not just work here while belonging to another country.

So, to sum up, yes, absolutely, I dissaprove of the illegal aliens protesting, and I dissaprove of many of the things they DID while protesting. Much of it was, thank goodness, peacful and respectful. But in places they were rude, and inconvenienced and insulted people who had nothing to do with what they were angry about. (who may have even been on their side)

And that's why I disagree with Roy Warden. His protest said the wrong thing ("I hate Mexico and Mexicans") to the wrong people (a group of probably mostly legal citizens celebrating Cynco De Mayo)

I can agree with that. I was under the impression that you supported the illegals protest, but scorned Ray Warden. It's an easy conclusion to come to since I haven't heard you speak against the illegal protests, only counter-protests.

Don't know about Arizona law, but in TX it's illegal to display or announce possesion of a weapon in a threatening manner in public. Besides, if he was really \"gutsy\" he wouldn't have brought the gun

MP

On another note, a lot of people have broken laws for a lot worse reasons than a Mexican crossing the border to try and have a better life in the US, myself included.

\"... but the illegals don't even have the RIGHT to be here.\"

I think you're confusing rights with laws:

\"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.\"
-- The Declaration of Independence

Notice the lack of \"place of residence or job in this country\" in that list.

Also notice the lack of \"citizen\" and \"born in the good ol' US of A.\"

Mousepad wrote:Don't know about Arizona law, but in TX it's illegal to display or announce possesion of a weapon in a threatening manner in public. Besides, if he was really "gutsy" he wouldn't have brought the gun

MP

And thats an excellent law, hence why he should have his gun taken away and be exposed to a jailhouse beating.

I think you're confusing rights with laws:

No sir, I am well aware of the difference between a right and a law.

I'm tired, but I will respond further sometime in the morning.

Amendment XIV-

Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I have yet to read any case-law that has been set by the declaration of independence.Furthermore; The inalienable rights do not afford a person(s)to breach the laws of our land. If that were the case, what would be the point of immigration law? The constitution of the United States of America was not written to protect the world, only its citizens. Breaking our immigration law is not an inalienable right.

I was using rights and laws synonymously, which isn't correct.

Canuck wrote:

Mousepad wrote:Don't know about Arizona law, but in TX it's illegal to display or announce possesion of a weapon in a threatening manner in public. Besides, if he was really "gutsy" he wouldn't have brought the gun

MP

And thats an excellent law, hence why he should have his gun taken away and be exposed to a jailhouse beating.

I think Arizona is the state that has always had the law that says you can carry a gun as long as it's not completely concealed no permit required.
Example, your shirt tail can cover all but the last inch of the barrel and it's legal. Either New Mexico or Arizona has that law.

As a concealed weapon permit holder he would be required to tell the police he had a gun and permit anytime they asked for any identification, even if it's just a routine traffic stop or walk up to you on the street and ask who you are. The purpose is to make sure the police know the potential for danger as soon as they start to talk to you.

So exactly what his motive was to announce his possession of the gun is unclear. Obviously he was being a melodramatic pain the ass with a desire to provoke a response from the crowd and he probably was truly concerned that things might escalate into a situation where he might have to defend himself and was hoping the police would stay nearby so he could be a pain in the mexicans ass, get lots of attention, and still be safe. He's no Ghandi or Dr. Martin Luther King that's for sure! More like an Al Sharpton or Hillary Clinton in my view.

I wonder if he had stirred up the crowd, then had to shoot someone because they started to physically attack him if I would have found him guilty because he engaged in provoking the crowd or found him innocent because he was within his right to protest while legally possessing a gun and was within his rights to defend himself if threatened.
I guess I would have found him innocent in a criminal trial by the letter of the law but if a civil suit followed I might find him guilty of causing the incident....

He wasn't doing his cause much good that day that's for sure. And to be honest, I'd have to question if his real cause isn't primarily egocentric.
If he was my nieghbor and I read that report about him I'd definitely be wary of him from then on.

Will your a voice of reason, you saw potential for disaster in that man too huh?

I'm with Will. Legally, the guy is within his rights. But he makes me VERY nervious.

It's guys like him that make me leave the gun range when they come in.
I'd fight for his right to keep and bear arms, but only because I'd be fighting to protect my own right by doing so. If he were to give up his guns and take up gerbil ranching I'd be happier by far.

First of all, let me clarify my position a little bit. I'm by no means advocating just opening up the borders to anyone who wants to come here. At the same time, I understand that it's virtually impossible for a bottom-class Mexican to ever be able to afford to immigrate into this country legally.

Latin cultures tend to be extremely class-divided. People at the bottom have no hope of ever being able to make anything for themselves. But right across the border there's hope. They're willing to leave everything behind just to come work for $10 a day putting shingles on your roof in 105 degree weather in the middle of July -- that should tell you something.

Again, I'm not advocating opening up the borders. But if Pepe and his pregnant wife want to ride like sardines in the back of an 18-wheeler all the way from Laredo to San Antonio so that his kid can have a better life, who am I to say he doesn't "have the right?"

Fusion pimp wrote:The inalienable rights do not afford a person(s)to breach the laws of our land.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. A person's inalienable rights have absolutely nothing to do with the laws of any land. Weren't we breaking the laws of Britain by declaring independence in the first place?

Mexicans sneaking across the border to come work in the US is obviously illegal according to our laws. But, could it not be argued that sending them back to a place where they have no hope is denying them "the pursuit of happiness?"

MP

Well, the ones who come here illegally and make themselves a better life, are basically invisible.

It's the trash that everyone is complaining about. The ones who come here, throw their trash in our streets, cuss us up and down, and demand something for nothing, and run around being just common criminals..they aren't here to give their kids a better life.

A person's inalienable rights have absolutely nothing to do with the laws of any land

Well, sort of..If you mean that inalienable rights can't be legislated away, you're right. But to suggest that inalienable rights have nothing to do with laws is incorrect..they're not dependent on any law for their existence, but your rights/freedom can be removed by our governement, through due process for breaking natural law.