Conservative judges just tossed out one more of your rights.

For discussion of life's issues: current events, social trends and personal opinions.

Moderators: Tunnelcat, Jeff250

User avatar
Mobius
DBB_Master
DBB_Master
Posts: 7940
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Contact:

Conservative judges just tossed out one more of your rights.

Post by Mobius »

Just when you thought you had a chance to increase your personal freedoms in the USA, a conservative dominated supreme court has announced that you no longer have the right for police to \"knock and announce\" before entering your home.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/16/opini ... ref=slogin
Published: June 16, 2006

The Supreme Court yesterday substantially diminished Americans' right to privacy in their own homes. The rule that police officers must \"knock and announce\" themselves before entering a private home is a venerable one, and a well-established part of Fourth Amendment law. But President Bush's two recent Supreme Court appointments have now provided the votes for a 5-4 decision eviscerating this rule.

This decision should offend anyone, liberal or conservative, who worries about the privacy rights of ordinary Americans.

The case arose out of the search of Booker T. Hudson's home in Detroit in 1998. The police announced themselves but did not knock, and after waiting a few seconds, entered his home and seized drugs and a gun. There is no dispute that the search violated the knock-and-announce rule.

The question in the case was what to do about it. Mr. Hudson wanted the evidence excluded at his trial. That is precisely what should have happened. Since 1914, the Supreme Court has held that, except in rare circumstances, evidence seized in violation of the Constitution cannot be used. The exclusionary rule has sometimes been criticized for allowing criminals to go free just because of police error. But as the court itself recognized in that 1914 case, if this type of evidence were admissible, the Fourth Amendment \"might as well be stricken.\"

The court ruled yesterday that the evidence could be used against Mr. Hudson. Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the majority, argued that even if police officers did not have to fear losing a case if they disobeyed the knock-and-announce rule, the subjects of improper searches could still bring civil lawsuits to challenge them. But as the dissenters rightly pointed out, there is little chance that such suits would keep the police in line. Justice Scalia was also far too dismissive of the important privacy rights at stake, which he essentially reduced to \"the right not to be intruded upon in one's nightclothes.\" Justice Stephen Breyer noted in dissent that even a century ago the court recognized that when the police barge into a house unannounced, it is an assault on \"the sanctity of a man's home and the privacies of life.\"

If Justice Sandra Day O'Connor had stayed on the court, this case might well have come out the other way. For those who worry that Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito will take the court in a radically conservative direction, it is sobering how easily the majority tossed aside a principle that traces back to 13th-century Britain, and a legal doctrine that dates to 1914, to let the government invade people's homes.
Way to go, in the land of the free and and the home of the spied on.
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10135
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Post by Will Robinson »

Personally I think if the police have already legally obtained permission from a court to kick the door down then having that happen without a knock first isn't much of a loss of anything other than a chance to get in position to shoot the cop or eat your dope...niether are high on my list of actions to be protected.

I do think there should be two versions of the warrant, one with, and one without the knock, because if your serving a warrant to search for some evidence of a crime committed elswhere for example then the occupants might have no reason to believe the cops would be coming in and would feel they have just cause to shoot at armed men kicking the door in if they don't know they are cops.
User avatar
Kilarin
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2403
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:01 am
Location: South of Ft. Worth Texas

Post by Kilarin »

Will Robinson wrote:the occupants might have no reason to believe the cops would be coming in and would feel they have just cause to shoot at armed men kicking the door in if they don't know they are cops.
The police CAN request a "No knock" warrant. See This 1997 case for an example. At that time, the court decided that if the police don't knock when a judge has DENIED them a knockless warrant, then they are violating the 4th Amendment protection against unreasonable searches and seizures.

What has just happened is that the supreme court has said cops don't HAVE to abide by the rules anymore. If the judge denies them a knockless warrant, they can bash in the door without knocking anyway.

Picture this scenario. Due to an unfortunate mixup, you become a suspect in some crime. You haven't committed any crime, its just that due to circumstances and accident you ended up on the suspect list. This is not unusual. The cops don't KNOW who did the crime yet, they are making guesses and going on whatever circumstantial evidence they have. Thats why our criminal system emphasizes that you are only a suspect, not a criminal. Not even ACCUSED of a crime at this point.

AND, you don't even suspect that you are a suspect.

The cops go to the judge, present their evidence, and request a warrant. They request a knockless warrant, its a serious case and they don't want you destroying evidence. The judge looks it over and says that yes, it is reasonable to search your house, but no, there is NOT enough evidence here to justify a knockless warrant. The cops must knock politely and inform you that they are coming in.

BUT, the cops know that what the judge says means NOTHING after today's court decision. And they feel like they will have a better chance of getting the info if they don't knock.

The team shows up at your house. They start moving into position. Your daughter sees something moving and says "Daddy, there is someone in the bushes sneaking past the window!" You, being a legal gun owner, immediately get out your pistol and tell your wife to dial 911. You have just gotten the gun out when the door suddenly crashes in.

No knock, no one shouts "Police!", just the door is kicked in and someone with a shotgun steps through. Your family's life is at stake, you shoot, they shoot back, and when its over, you're injured, your daughter and one of the cops are dead.

And legally, it's all YOUR FAULT now, because thanks to this wonderful conservative government, the cops no longer have to listen to the judge about whether they should knock and announce themselves. With any warrant, they can kick in the door and come in armed and ready to shoot.

God bless America.
User avatar
dissent
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2162
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:17 pm
Location: Illinois

Post by dissent »

Some background.

Nice non-sequitur, Mobius, since the case at question had nothing to do with spying.
User avatar
Duper
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 9214
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2001 3:01 am
Location: Beaverton, Oregon USA

Post by Duper »

I'm not worried.
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10135
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Post by Will Robinson »

Kilarin wrote:What has just happened is that the supreme court has said cops don't HAVE to abide by the rules anymore. If the judge denies them a knockless warrant, they can bash in the door without knocking anyway....
I haven't read the actual ruling but from the article linked by dissent above it doesn't look like that's what the court said at all! It looks like they said evidence gathered may still be admissable if they fail to knock.
It doesn't say that the if the police fail to knock and announce they are exempt from all liability...it doesn't say anything that would cause the officers in charge to change their tactics to always enter without knocking and announcing....

I was under the assumption that there was never a time when they could enter without the knock and announce instead it looks like there already is a provision for them to go in without so I'm happy for that. It also looks like the only thing that has changed is regarding evidence that might be obtained if they enter unannounced, again I'm happy with that.
So as far as I can tell right now the odds of my house being entered under waarant unannounced hasn't changed one bit.
So your hypothetical doesn't really scare me because the threat level hasn't changed....
User avatar
Kilarin
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2403
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:01 am
Location: South of Ft. Worth Texas

Post by Kilarin »

Wil Robinson wrote:It looks like they said evidence gathered may still be admissible if they fail to knock.
Yes, and this is the problem. If you don't have any punishment for police breaking the rule, then the rule might as well not exist. I'm very sympathetic to the idea that we shouldn't throw away evidence, but unless we have strict rules about how the police can collect evidence, they police will do whatever they want. Which includes kicking down doors without knocking and announcing, even if the judge who granted the warrant specifically denied them a "knockless" warrant.
Wil Robinson wrote:It doesn't say that the if the police fail to knock and announce they are exempt from all liability
Hmmm. Ok, perhaps I went to far there. It does not STATE anything about liability, but I would assume that since it is no longer illegal for the cops to ignore the judge on this issue, that means what they did was a lawful entry and you are the bad guy since you shot at the cops. But that is complete assumption on my part.
Wil Robinson wrote:So as far as I can tell right now the odds of my house being entered under warrant unannounced hasn't changed one bit.
Before this ruling, if cops wanted to kick in your door without knocking, a judge had to look at the situation and approve it. And, quiet specifically from the 1997 ruling, if the cops ignored the judge and broke in anyway, the evidence gathered would be inadmissible in court. SO, cops would try VERY hard to do what the judge said, after all, they don't WANT the evidence thrown out. They want to catch the bad guys.

But now, the cops know that they can ignore the judge and kick down a door whenever they have a warrant. ANY warrant.

The most dangerous enemy of the US is NOT foreign terrorists, they can only do so much damage. The most dangerous enemy of the US is ourselves, and specifically the power we give our government over us. We can defend against foreign attacks, but if we give up our rights and willingly let the government strip all meaning out of the constitution, then we lose everything.

[edit]I just found a reference that the supreme court thinks cops who violate the judges wishes and enter without knocking and announcing WILL be vulnerable to civil suits. I'm not certain how well that will hold up legally, and it seems an inadequate solution to me. But it's a little bit better than NOTHING.[/edit]
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10135
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Post by Will Robinson »

The thing to remember is the police generally don't want to go in unannounced causing an uninformed person to defend against what at first glance could look like armed intruders.
They know they can avoid being shot at by identifying themselves in most situations.
Even hard core gang bangers know they won't win the fight against SWAT and will toss the weapons if they know that's who's coming in.

I'm sure there are cowboys and rookies who would get a thrill out of coming in like terrorists but I'm betting the officers in charge of the entry don't tolerate that kind of thing.

From reading Scalia's comments it seems this ruling was designed to keep evidence admissible regardless of the knock or no knock aspect of the search/entry. It wasn't designed to cause the tactics to change.

I'm thinking that just because the evidence will still be admissible the methods they use will still be chosen based on the best tactics. The police really aren't a bunch of jack boot Gestapo-like thugs that have only been kept restrained by virtue of the knock and announce clause of most warrants. From what I've been told by people who do this kind of thing their main and over riding concern pre-entry is avoiding death so why would they change their tactics just because of this ruling?
User avatar
Dakatsu
DBB Admiral
DBB Admiral
Posts: 1575
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:22 am
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida

Post by Dakatsu »

From reading Scalia's comments it seems this ruling was designed to keep evidence admissible regardless of the knock or no knock aspect of the search/entry. It wasn't designed to cause the tactics to change.
Okay, how bout this, the evidence is still okay no matter what, but they get in big ass trouble if they go in unannounced...

Just my idea
User avatar
Testiculese
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4689
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 3:01 am

Post by Testiculese »

Dak, the police are in a FRATERNITY (which is illegal, btw). Do you rat out your frat brothers in college? nooo...
User avatar
snoopy
DBB Benefactor
DBB Benefactor
Posts: 4435
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 1999 2:01 am

Post by snoopy »

Heh. I don't like it. I don't have a gun, and I think if I do get one sometime, I'll do it mostly to stick it to the government. (Ok, maybe I'll keep it in case someone (including the cops) breaks into my house.)
User avatar
woodchip
DBB Benefactor
DBB Benefactor
Posts: 17865
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 2:01 am

Post by woodchip »

To show the depths that a police agency will go to protect itself, from The National Review Online:

http://tinyurl.com/q2ap2

Quote:
\"When Weaver sued the federal government for the wrongful death of his wife and son, the government that had tried to kill him twice now sought an out-of-court settlement. In August 1995 the U.S. government paid the Weaver family $3.1 million. On the condition that his name not be used in an article, one Department of Justice official told the Washington Post that if Weaver's suit had gone to trial in Idaho, he probably would have been awarded $200 million.\"

Quote:
\"An Idaho prosecutor did bring manslaughter charges against the FBI sniper who shot Vicki Weaver. That move really outraged the feds because they insisted that they were capable of policing their own — so long as they did not have any outside \"interference.\"

The Department of Justice was so disturbed by the indictment of its agent that they dispatched the solicitor general to a federal appellate court to argue that the charges should be dismissed. (The solicitor general ordinarily only makes oral argument to the Supreme Court). The solicitor general told the judicial panel that even if the evidence supported the charges, the case should be thrown out because \"federal law enforcement agents are privileged to do what would otherwise be unlawful if done by a private citizen.\" The appeals court rejected that sweeping argument for a license to kill, but by the time that ruling came down last June, a new local prosecutor was in office in Boundary County, Idaho, and he announced that it was time to put this whole unpleasant episode behind us and to \"move on.\" Thus, the criminal case against the sniper was dropped.\"

So the question here is \"Who committed the greater crime?\"...Weaver? The FBI? Or the american judicial system for failing to do what it is entrusted to do?
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10135
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Post by Will Robinson »

Woodchip, I don't doubt that bad cops have done, and will do, bad things but this ruling doesn't look to me like it will create more bad cops.
User avatar
Kilarin
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2403
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:01 am
Location: South of Ft. Worth Texas

Post by Kilarin »

ill Robinson wrote:I'm sure there are cowboys and rookies who would get a thrill out of coming in like terrorists but I'm betting the officers in charge of the entry don't tolerate that kind of thing
The police officers I know are good people. But that doesn't mean I don't want them controled by rigid laws. We give the police power over us. That means we MUST watch them closely.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

It's not GOOD enough to just HOPE that they won't abuse the rules. Eventually they will. Power corrupts. Do NOT give the cops any power that you don't want them to use, because if the power is there, they WILL use it. (This is true of ANY level of government)
User avatar
Duper
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 9214
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2001 3:01 am
Location: Beaverton, Oregon USA

Post by Duper »

btw, there is more than just 2 judges that are on the that panel.
User avatar
woodchip
DBB Benefactor
DBB Benefactor
Posts: 17865
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 2:01 am

Post by woodchip »

Will, I don't think the ruling will create more bad cops either. What it will do is allow the bad ones to get away with more.
User avatar
Diedel
D2X Master
D2X Master
Posts: 5278
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Contact:

Post by Diedel »

I am so glad I live in Germany ... :roll:
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10135
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Post by Will Robinson »

Diedel wrote:I am so glad I live in Germany ... :roll:
Muhammed Atta and many of his band of 9/11 hijackers were easily transformed into the islamikazi's they became thanks to the "freedoms" that German law provided them. Due to the over-reaction to Hitler's reign Germany has tied the hands of the police and become a friendly sanctuary for radicals like Atta. Look into the Al Quds mosque in Hamburg.....ask around about the way the FBI was not allowed to be informed of the activities there even though they asked for help from German police....

Germany, although I agree is a wonderful place from all I hear, is not without it's own weaknesses in the area of peoples rights. where we are getting a little too strict for comforts sake in some areas you guys have definitely gone overboard in the other direction. You can't even publish the names of convicted criminals in Germany I believe! WTF is up with that? Who does that serve?!?
User avatar
Diedel
D2X Master
D2X Master
Posts: 5278
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Contact:

Post by Diedel »

So far, our freedoms have hardly been abused, and Atta and his accomplices hadn't committed any crimes in Germany.

You are dead wrong in what you are saying about support for U.S. police (and secret services) in Germany: Inofficially, you get a heck of a lot support even for all kinds of illegal actions in Germany.

Just one example from the recent past: Remember the case of that German man who got abducted bei U.S. secret agents because he had the same name as a terrorist? German authorities up to the foreign minister knew about it early, and they knew the U.S. had the wrong man, and all they did was cover it up, those fkn bastards.

Are you talking about publishing the names of sex offenders on the internet? All I can say about that is that this is a stupid action of a stupid legislation of a nation apparently slipping more and more into barbarianism. This is an invitation for self-administered justice, and there is no place for that in a civilized state, and for good reason.

I know that the U.S. is not to be compared with Nazi Germany or a modern dictatorship, but the sad thing about you is that you claim to be the, well, 'shrine of democracy and human rights' will in fact you break them everywhere and even go against your own people. This goes from overthrowing legally elected governments to replace them with a dictator who is slave to the U.S. and their economic interest to having your own civil rights be undermined with the poor excuse of having to fight terror. Actually, terror is achieving exactly what it wants in your nation, and you fail to see it. The ultimate goal of terror is to turn a nation against itself.

I could continue with the crimes U.S. troops have repeatedly commited in Iraq. At least, some U.S. soldiers have been accused of murder recently, what a progress in an army that has so far excused and covered up everything they've done wrong in Iraq. The question is whether these guys will actually receive the sentence they deserve.

It is also a sad fact that many American knew and know that the Bush administration is lying to them and abusing them, and yet they agree. Obviously they want their country to act like it does and accept every easily seen through justification to it.

It's more than sad that a lot of Americans who call themselves 'Christian' support such actions, despite of what their book says. I have to say one thing to these people: Those that do the word of God belong to him, not those that use His name, yet disobey.

I can only repeat a statement made by Benjamin Franklin:

\"A nation that is willing to sacrifice a little freedom for a little security has deserved neither and will lose both.\"
User avatar
Kilarin
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2403
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:01 am
Location: South of Ft. Worth Texas

Post by Kilarin »

Diedel wrote:"A nation that is willing to sacrifice a little freedom for a little security has deserved neither and will lose both."
Obviously I agree with you about the general direction of the US, but I'll have to disagree about some particulars:
Diedel wrote:I could continue with the crimes U.S. troops have repeatedly committed in Iraq.
You KNOW I don't approve of this war, and there certainly have been crimes committed, the biggest being starting the war in the first place. BUT, credit where credit is due. These soldiers are stationed in a country where a significant portion of the population HATES them, and where even those who supposedly support them aren't all that happy about them being there. You can't tell who is on which side until they shoot one of your buddies or blow up your car. They kidnap civilians and cut off their heads and publish it on the web. They mutilate the bodies of your fallen comrades when they can.

This is a RECIPE for creating an extremely abusive situation. The US troops in Iraq have EVERY POSSIBLE motivation to want to abuse the locals. Please note, I am not EXCUSING that abuse in ANY WAY. Wrong is wrong. All I'm saying is that the situation they are in is CLEARLY the kind of nightmare that encourages soldiers to be abusive.

The fact that we have over a hundred thousand troops stationed there makes the number of reported problems start looking MUCH smaller than you would expect it to. I think the soldiers have shown remarkable restraint under this pressure.

Again, I don't think we should have been in Iraq in the first place (at least not under the insufficient and criminal grounds Bush chose for starting the war). And ANY abuse is wrong and should be STOPPED and the perpetrators (at all levels) punished immediately. But overall, I expected it to be MUCH worse than it has been. They are mostly VERY good and VERY patient soldiers over there.
Diedel wrote:Are you talking about publishing the names of sex offenders on the internet? All I can say about that is that this is a stupid action of a stupid legislation of a nation apparently slipping more and more into barbarianism.
Wrong problem. It's NOT barbaric to warn people that their next door neighbor sexually abuses little children. What's barbaric is the fact that we are releasing sexual predators back to the streets so we can make room in the prisons for non-violent offenders, mainly drug cases. I don't use drugs, I don't approve of drugs, but I would FAR rather live next door to some guy who had been caught with a few ounces of marijuana then with the guy who has gone to jail multiple times for raping children.

The purpose of a jail is to PROTECT the citizens from harm by keeping dangerous criminals locked up. We have completely lost sight of that as a country. And that is BARBARIC in the extreme.
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10135
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Post by Will Robinson »

Diedel wrote:...You are dead wrong in what you are saying about support for U.S. police (and secret services) in Germany: Inofficially, you get a heck of a lot support even for all kinds of illegal actions in Germany....
First, I'm not dead wrong about the cooperation we didn't recieve regarding the Al Quds mosque and the terrorist recruiting and managing that took place there, and probably still takes place unreported to any authority since they are so "free"....
In america you will have plenty of freedom to say what you want but when you plot to overthrow the government or commit mass murder you will be watched and listened to etc. and we will inform the german police when it concerns them regardless if they decide to use the information.
The law abiding citizens of the U.S. enjoy that freedom to be alotted to our police and it has served us quite well since the inception of this country.

Second, from your statement there it looks like you are saying german officials have allowed illegal activities to be perpetrated against german citizens...hmmm sounds strikingly familiar to the indictment you raise against the US doesn't it?!?

By the way, publishing the names of sex offenders hasn't resulted in lynchings but it has kept the parents of young children capable of keeping their children away from likely preditors. Your assumption that it results in barbarism is exposing your predjudice and the preditors in germany are grateful that you protect their locations as they hunt their next victim....

As to the rest of it, I really don't think you want to compare the track record of our two countries going back into history too far because you will lose miserably in that comparison!
User avatar
Lothar
DBB Ghost Admin
DBB Ghost Admin
Posts: 12133
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: I'm so glad to be home
Contact:

Post by Lothar »

The ultimate goal of terror is to turn a nation against itself.
No, it's not. The ultimate goal of terror is to gain strategic advantage over an adversary by making them live in fear. In this case, the ultimate goal of Islamic terror is to make Americans chicken out so we won't fight back against the establishment of the Caliphate and eventual world domination by Wahabi Islam.

And, despite the fact that a number of people are incapable of seeing things in those terms... we're winning.
User avatar
Diedel
D2X Master
D2X Master
Posts: 5278
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Contact:

Post by Diedel »

You are wrong Lothar, and you can see the success of terror in the U.S. by the way your civil rights are being undermined and an atmosphere of intimidation is spreading.

If terrorism succeeds in that it may eventually grow strong enough to overtake an entire state and society, like the Taliban managed to do in Afghanistan, and as Al Quaida is trying in Iraq.

But the primary strategy is as I described above. Terrorists are never strong enough initially to control a society. Fear is only the catalyst causing a society to turn on itself by distrusting their own people, implementing means of controlling the populace, and bending or breaking their own laws and even legislative foundations it is founded on. In the extreme case, this will lead to oppression, which can provoke public unrest and complete destabilization of the entire society, culture and state.

That's what terrorism is about, and you in your short sighted 'right or wrong, my country' attitude you've displayed here often enough, who doesn't want to hear a message you don't like, be it as true as it can be, have not understood that at all, because you prefer your simplistic sight of life, society, politics and the world because it gives you that feeling of safety and shelteredness you so direly need.
User avatar
Lothar
DBB Ghost Admin
DBB Ghost Admin
Posts: 12133
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: I'm so glad to be home
Contact:

Post by Lothar »

Diedel wrote:Yyou in your short sighted 'right or wrong, my country' attitude you've displayed here often enough, who doesn't want to hear a message you don't like, be it as true as it can be, have not understood that at all, because you prefer your simplistic sight of life, society, politics and the world because it gives you that feeling of safety and shelteredness you so direly need.
If you can't keep rants and personal attacks like this out of your posts (whether they're directed at me or others), don't come to E&C.
the primary strategy is as I described above. Terrorists are never strong enough initially to control a society. Fear is only the catalyst causing a society to turn on itself by distrusting their own people...
Uh, no. Terrorists aren't strong enough to initially control a society... but the goal of terror is not to "cause a society to turn on itself", it's to "cause the society to back out of the fight". If they can do that by making the society fight amongst itself, they'll take that option... if they can do it by making the society take too many casualties, they'll take that option... and if they can do it by making false accusations that make the society hamstring its own ability to fight, they'll do that too.

The terrorists' biggest victories have been in the last category. Despite the amount we yell at each other on these forums, people in this country aren't turning against each other. We might be seeing more clearly those who have ALWAYS been against us, though.
User avatar
Diedel
D2X Master
D2X Master
Posts: 5278
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Contact:

Post by Diedel »

You are repeating yourself, and you are still wrong. I explained everything already. ;)

Just look at your own society and how your government turns against you. This has nothing to do with personal disagreements on this forum. It has a far bigger scope.
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10135
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Post by Will Robinson »

Diedel wrote:Just look at your own society and how...blah blah blah....
I wonder from what vantage point are you viewing our society? Through which filter do you gaze from afar?
If you are depending on cable TV news or the wonderful N.Y. Times style "journalism" then it's no wonder you think we're under assault from Big Brother.

Try living here for a while and then we'll talk....
User avatar
Kilarin
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2403
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:01 am
Location: South of Ft. Worth Texas

Post by Kilarin »

I do not LIKE the direction our government is taking the war on terrorism, and the willingness of people to give up their freedom for a little safety.

But:
Diedel wrote:The ultimate goal of terror is to turn a nation against itself.
I agree with you that this is ONE of their methods. But its not the only method. And it's not a very SMART one.

Right now, if the terrorist are smart (granted, in general they are NOT), they are rooting for a change in government that will reverse most of George W. Bushes grabs for more excutive power.

Why? Because a dictatorial US is one that is MUCH more dangerous to the terrorists (in the short term) than a more free and democratic US. As a democratic state, we get TIRED of war. And that's GOOD for the terrorists.

Lets take a specific example to show why terrorist obviously can have other goals than causing a nation to "turn against itself".

In Somalia, the rebels dragged US soldiers bodies through he streets. Their goal? To terrorise the U.S. And through that terror, to make the US lose it's taste for war and BACK OUT. And we did. Which led directly to the 911 attack. Because the U.S. has proven that if the war gets ugly it will run, Osama didn't think we would have the guts to stick through a real fight with him.

Thats why, despite the fact that I HATE the war in Iraq, and despite the fact that I think we should have NEVER entered it in the way we did, I am opposed to simply running. George W. Bush got us INTO this ugly mess, and now that we are in it, we can't run without making it much, much, much worse. Running tells the terrorist that if they make it ugly enough, we'll back down. So their method will always be to make it as ugly as possible.

The ONLY chance of stopping that cycle is convince them that it doesn't work. That blowing up civilians, sending home body bags, and videos of decapitations will NOT make us back down.

Have you ever been confronted by a mean dog? A good stare will normally make them back down. BUT, the moment you turn back and start to walk away, they jump back at you growling and barking. Why? Because when you start leaving, they think you are running away, and that MUST be because they chased you away. If you want to convince the dog of your dominance, you have to find a way of leaving without letting the dog think it chased you off.

The only way to salvage some sort of victory out of this disaster is to find a way to leave that doesn't let the insurgents think they chased us off. Otherwise we are just setting our selves up for MORE terrorisim in the future.
User avatar
Diedel
D2X Master
D2X Master
Posts: 5278
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Contact:

Post by Diedel »

Kilarin,

how can you people be so short sighted and uneducated about terrorism and how it is to be fought?

You need to pull away the soil it flourishes in, and that soil is poverty and the feeling of being exploited.

You cannot compare terrorists to a dog. A terrorist, being human, is far more intelligent than a dog. This is another over-simplifying comparison (should I say for people who aren't capable of a more complex and suitable grasp of reality?)

Just look at Iran: It is better to offer them advanced nuclear tech (of a kind that can be used for peaceful purposes, but not for creating enriched, weapon-capable uranium) than have them build their own bomb - or bomb them back to the stone age (at the cost of even more Islamic people getting radicalized against the West in general and the U.S. in particular).

What is at stake with Iran is the right of every sovereign state to possess nuclear tech vs. the danger a particular state with nuclear weaponry poses for peace.

You cannot just nuke everybody from the face of the planet who you feel is becoming a risk for world peace. If you did, it was actually you who became a risk for world peace. Even your political leaders have acknowledged that the ultimate price for attacking Iran would be too high in the long run.

(Actually, my first reaction was \"Why don't they nuke the hell out of Adolf-dinejad and his reactor\"; but the more I followed the discussion about this, the more I realized that this simply wasn'a viable option - and your administration sees it like that, I believe that has to mean something, given the hard line they usually love to follow).

Back to the terrorists. I believe that aiding most nations in achieving some economic prosperity and political respect will do a great deal for removing support for terrorists from such countries. Even Ghaddafi has turned back to the West when he saw it was advantageous for them.

Iraq should teach you that the current U.S. approach to fighting terrorism is a complete failure. Instead of protecting the Iraqi people, building expanding safe zones, you try to squash terrorist forces punctually with brute military force. That concept just doesn't work.

I am going to use frank words now: Your leaders (and many of your people) just seem to be too damn stupid to recognize that using the utmost violence doesn't work. To me, you seem like a street bully who only knows violence, and if he doesn't get through the first time, all he can figure is using more violence.

I am definitely not the \"peace at all cost\" type (actually I consider such people dang sissies who live in a dreamworld at best), but I am a very goal-oriented person, and if something doesn't work, I figure something different to try.

A big part of your nation including your leadership doesn't seem to have enough wit and fantasy for that. That makes you look just plain, dang dumb.

Sorry for that. I am just looking at your actions, the results, and what you have learnt from it - which is not much, so far, and \"stupid\" is the only word that comes to my mind for that.

Mr. Bush and the puppeteers pulling his strings have fkd up your nation so badly, and you even applaud them for it, because they impressed you so mightily with some strong-arm tactics, making you feel so powerful. It is sad that you so happily embrace such a primitive behaviour, way of ruling a country and dealing with the world.
User avatar
Kilarin
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2403
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:01 am
Location: South of Ft. Worth Texas

Post by Kilarin »

Diedel wrote:how can you people be so short sighted and uneducated about terrorism and how it is to be fought?
Diedel, I'm on your side. I don't like Bush, I don't like the way this country has chosen to fight terrorism. But you failed to address the point.

You have said that:
Diedel wrote:The ultimate goal of terror is to turn a nation against itself.
And it's just not true. That is often one of the effects, it may often even be ONE of the goals, but it is not ALWAYS the ULTIMATE goal. I can't come up with a single example of where it IS the ultimate goal of any group of terrorists.

The insurgents in Iraq want us to LEAVE. Osama wants the U.S. out of Saudi-Arabia as a short term goal, and to fall completely as a long term goal. The rebels in Somalia wanted us to give up the fight and go home. The Iranian students who captured our embassy just wanted to strike back at the U.S. for having supported the Sha. The IRA wants Ireland independent from England as a Primary goal, and simply wants Ireland to be Catholic as a secondary or lesser goal. The Klu Klux Klan wants everyone who isn't white to be too scared to stand up for their rights. The PLO wants Israel to cease to exist as a primary goal, But they would settle for Israel out of Palestine as a secondary goal, and just better rights for Palestinians as a third possibility. The weathermen wanted the U.S. out of Vietnam.

The "Ultimate" goal of terrorism is most often to just get the "big" country to LEAVE or QUIT something, but as I've listed above, there can be MANY other goals. A change in policy, or just to keep some group too frightened to act.

Again, please note, I'M ON YOUR SIDE in many respects. But just because I oppose the way Bush is handling terrorism doesn't mean I have to narrow my vision down so far that I can only see terrorists as having one goal.
Diedel wrote:You cannot compare terrorists to a dog. A terrorist, being human, is far more intelligent than a dog.
Thank GOD (and I mean that quite literally) that terrorist, in general, are NOT very smart. If they were, they would be MUCH more effective. If you don't believe me, take a look at Schneier's Movie-Plot Threat Contest. The 911 attacks rise WAY above the average terrorist stupidity of blowing up a bomb somewhere. And yet there are PLENTY of ideas presented in Schneier's contest that make the 911 attack look like exactly what it was, a primitive attempt by a bunch of pea brained morons. But then, lets admit it up front here, the group of "people who are really smart" and the group of "people who would voluntarily blow themselves up to make someone else happy" has a very, very tiny intersection, if they overlap at all. Most terrorists are morons. I pray that they will STAY that way. And the terrorists goals are generally simple and easy to understand. They most usually TELL you what they want. Causing "A nation to turn against itself", is frequently one of the METHODS they use, but its not always their ultimate goal.
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10135
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Post by Will Robinson »

Diedel wrote:Just look at Iran: It is better to offer them advanced nuclear tech (of a kind that can be used for peaceful purposes, but not for creating enriched, weapon-capable uranium) than have them build their own bomb ...
Oh, you mean like Clinton did with N. Korea?
That worked out well didn't it?!?
Do you really believe that we could provide Iran, the most radical fundamentalist islami-kazi state in the world, with nuclear capabilities and then just trust to hope that they wouldn't make weapons out of it?!?!

You can't be serious.

By the way, the offer you speak of has been made by the U.S. Russia and others. Do you know what that crazy nutbag Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said in response?
Here it is:
"Do you think you are dealing with a 4-year-old to whom you can give some walnuts and chocolates and get gold from him?"
User avatar
Diedel
D2X Master
D2X Master
Posts: 5278
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Contact:

Post by Diedel »

The Russian offer differed from the U.S. offer. Russia offered to provide enrichment facilities on Russian territory.

The U.S. offered civilian nuclear reactor tech not suited for creating weapon capable uranium.

The question is how far Adolf-dinejad is willing to go. And if peacefully offering compromises is only good for having him expose himself so far that nobody gets upset any more when he gets ... errrm ... removed. :roll:

At the current state, a military strike may however do more harm than it helps.

I don't remember exactly what Clinton did with North Korea, but afaik they had the bomb already, and attacking them is a different story then attacking Iran, N.Korea being a Russian/Chinese protege. I find this very sad though: This state imo is one of the worst torture and oppression states in the world. I hope they do their missile test, and I hope very much the U.S. military shoots their fkn rocket down and teaches them a lesson.

I am not against military interventions, but the entire strategy and vision must be right, or be corrected timely.

Kilarin,

a terrorist is smarter than a dog. You cannot just stare at him (not even proverbially) and make him back up. Thank God they're not smarter than they are though. ;)

I still believe that a terrorist's main goal is to divide a people and their government, ultimately make them turn against each other: First the state against the people by introducing security measures that slowly pervert it to a police state, then the people getting in unrest. I believe all other things terrorists do have that basic goal.
User avatar
Kilarin
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2403
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:01 am
Location: South of Ft. Worth Texas

Post by Kilarin »

Diedel wrote:I still believe that a terrorist's main goal is to divide a people and their government, ultimately make them turn against each other: First the state against the people by introducing security measures that slowly pervert it to a police state, then the people getting in unrest. I believe all other things terrorists do have that basic goal.
In what way were/are the Klu Klux Klan hoping to do this?

Do you really think the average insurgent in Iraq is thinking about turning America into a police state? Or just hoping to scare us out of the country? heck, most of the insurgents don't even understand what a democracy IS, they've never lived in anything but police states. Can you support this with anything other than an "I believe?"

I think you are making a common mistake. Both you and I are upset about the increase in authoritarianism in the U.S. in response to terrorism. Since that is something that upsets us, it is very easy to narrow our vision down to the point that it is the only thing we can see. The terrorist have OTHER problems. You must broaden your vision to look at it from their point of view. Their is no logical reason to deny that the terrorists stated goals are not their actual goals, at least for the vast majority of the terrorists. No doubt some of the leadership have secret plans they aren't revealing, but in general they are pretty up front about it. Osama wants to take over the world and make it all an islamic state under his control. He ADMITS this. What secret goals does he NEED to HIDE?
User avatar
Diedel
D2X Master
D2X Master
Posts: 5278
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Contact:

Post by Diedel »

The average insurgent in Iraq has come very far in destabilizing Iraq, and the U.S. mil. forces are absolutely powerless against this.

Kilarin, it should be clear that the terrorist busy to ruin Iraq is not targetting the U.S. C'mon, I don't need to such basic level thinking for you, or do I? ;)

I think I am less upset about authoritarian tendencies in the current U.S. government, as I don't suffer from them.

It's just the most basic doctrine of terrorism to destabilize a society by spreading insecurity and fear and having it react by increasing safety measures at the cost of freedom and civil rights.

Btw, I don't consider the Ku Klux Klan terrorists in the classic sense of the world. They are a bunch of regular organized criminals like e.g. the Mafia, just with a racist background. Sure, you can claim they have kind of a political agenda, but I don't see them as terrorists - maybe because they don't try to destabilize the entire U.S. american society.
User avatar
Kilarin
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2403
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:01 am
Location: South of Ft. Worth Texas

Post by Kilarin »

Diedel wrote:it should be clear that the terrorist busy to ruin Iraq is not targetting the U.S.
They are targeting the US forces in Iraq and the Iraqi government that the US helped to install. I would call that targeting the US. Do you think that if the US withdrew today the insurgents would not announce victory? Honestly?
Diedel wrote:It's just the most basic doctrine of terrorism to destabilize a society by spreading insecurity and fear and having it react by increasing safety measures at the cost of freedom and civil rights.
Can you back this up with anything other than a "because I believe it is so"?

I think you would be absolutely safe to rephrase it as:

It's just the most basic doctrine of terrorism is ----------- - ------- -- spreading insecurity and fear --- ------ -- ----- -- ---------- ------ -------- -- --- ---- -- ------- --- ----- ------.

In most cases, the terrorist have no logical REASON to be interested in the civil rights of the target country except as it affects their vulnerabilities and strengths.

Osama wants the US out of Saudi Arabia. There are US troops based in the "Holy Land" and that has his panties in a wad. Increasing the power of the executive in the US and decreasing the freedoms of the citizens does NOTHING to help him towards that goal. Quite the opposite. Democracies get TIRED of war, dictatorships don't necessarily care how many body bags come in.
Diedel wrote:I don't consider the Ku Klux Klan terrorists in the classic sense of the world.
Huh? You seem to have your own definition of terrorism that doesn't necesarily match with what the rest of the world uses. The Klu Klux Klan, beyond any shadow of a doubt, are terrorist. John Brown was a terrorist. A terrorist is anyone who employs terror as a political weapon.
User avatar
Diedel
D2X Master
D2X Master
Posts: 5278
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Contact:

Post by Diedel »

Kilarin,

I do not always have a source at hand for things I have read or learnt years ago.

Your lack of knowledge by no means can be the measure of this debate here though.
User avatar
Kilarin
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2403
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:01 am
Location: South of Ft. Worth Texas

Post by Kilarin »

Diedel wrote:Your lack of knowledge by no means can be the measure of this debate here though.
Heh! :)
User avatar
Diedel
D2X Master
D2X Master
Posts: 5278
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Contact:

Post by Diedel »

:P ;)
User avatar
Will Robinson
DBB Grand Master
DBB Grand Master
Posts: 10135
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am

Post by Will Robinson »

Clinton built them a couple of light water reactors so they could have power and they wouldn't have to continue building their weapons grade processing plant. They said thank you very much and laughed as they continued to build their weapons while the american taxpayers built powerplants for them!

You proposed we do the same for Iran.
Well, by taking the spent fuel rods from a light water reactor and processing them they can remove the plutonium from the rod and create weapons grade material. Or they can just give some of the fuel rod material to some islami-kazi to pack around some conventional explosive material and they can detonate a dirty bomb which would create quite a bit of terror that lasts a long time, so long it's measured by the halflife....

Diedel you really don't know much about the subjects you try to lecture us on so what is your motive?
User avatar
Testiculese
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4689
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 3:01 am

Post by Testiculese »

Kilarin wrote:Osama wants the US out of Saudi Arabia. There are US troops based in the "Holy Land" and that has his panties in a wad. Increasing the power of the executive in the US and decreasing the freedoms of the citizens does NOTHING to help him towards that goal.
You're forgetting that he wants the US to crumble. What better way then by it's own doing?
User avatar
Kilarin
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2403
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:01 am
Location: South of Ft. Worth Texas

Post by Kilarin »

Testiculese wrote:You're forgetting that he wants the US to crumble. What better way then by it's own doing?
Oh, I agree! I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I believe I've already mentioned the same. My only point is that causing the US to lose its civil rights is not the ULTIMATE goal of terrorism in all cases. (as Diedle has said) Osama has more than one goal, and the only interest he has in our civil rights is in how it affects his goals.
Post Reply