DescentBB

In a letter to the editor of the Berlin left-wing daily Die Tageszeitung (TAZ) a Lebanese Shia explains how after Israel’s withdrawal from South Lebanon, Hezbollah stored rockets in bunkers in his town and built a school and residence over it.

I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajund that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like me. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to take have its say in other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters and armed to the teeth, they stored rockets in bunkers in our town as well. The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers! A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rockets depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians. These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda. As long as they continue existing there, there will be no tranquility and peace.

Dr. Mounir Herzallah
Berlin-Wedding

(translated from the German by David Ouellette)

German Original:

Ich wohnte bis 2002 in einem kleinen Dorf im Süden nahe Mardschajun, das mehrheitlich von Schiiten wie mir bewohnt ist. Nach Israels Verlassen des Libanon dauerte es nicht lange, bis die Hisbollah bei uns und in allen anderen Ortschaften das Sagen hatte. Als erfolgreiche Widerstandskämpfer begrüßt, erschienen sie waffenstarrend und legten auch bei uns Raketenlager in Bunkern an. Die Sozialarbeit der Partei Gottes bestand darin, auf diesen Bunkern eine Schule und ein Wohnhaus zu bauen! Ein lokaler Scheich erklärte mir lachend, dass die Juden in jedem Fall verlieren, entweder weil die Raketen auf sie geschossen werden oder weil sie, wenn sie die Lager angriffen, von der Weltöffentlichkeit verurteilt werden ob der dann zivilen Toten. Die libanesische Bevölkerung interessiert diese Leute überhaupt nicht, sie benutzen sie als Schilder und wenn tot als Propaganda. Solange sie dort existieren, wird es keine Ruhe und Frieden geben.

Dr. Mounir Herzallah
Berlin-Wedding

Define \"fail\".


Now define what Isreal defines as \"fail\".

Duper wrote:Define "fail".

Now define what Isreal defines as "fail".

Uhm.

Dr. Mounir Herzallah wrote:A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rockets depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians.

Bunny made the "fail" part up

lol

Backing this up, there are several interesting videos on YouTube where you can watch the hezbollah rockets being fired out of (or moved into) public buildings just before the Israeli's blow them away.

It's a shame that so many civilians are being hurt, but it looks to me like it is hezbollah's strategy to use human shields and Israel simply isn't going to put up with it anymore. I'm not certain this is the best strategy for Israel, but I certainly can't blame them.

I find it sad that Hezbollah fires thousands of rockets into Israel, everyone of them is aimed at civilians. Israel fires back only after dropping leaflets to warn the civilians of the upcoming bombardment, they try their best to only hit the actual guns/launchers/hezbollah personel etc. and the press chastises Israel for it's tactics and make little to no mention of the human shield tactics employed by Hezbollah!

If the press is really controlled by the zionists and neocons then explain this disparity to me!

What REALLY bugs me is that I keep hearing people say that Israels response is \"disproportionate\".

This ISN'T some kind of game. If you shoot at someone, you can only expect that they will shoot back with the biggest baddest guns they have. The GOAL is to be disproportionate. To hit so hard, that the enemy won't try to hurt YOU again.

And yes, Israel's response HAS been disproportionate. Hezbollah is deliberatly targeting civilians. Israel is targeting millitary targets, which, unfortunantly, Hezbolla is hiding in civilian areas.

And for the Lebanon government to claiming that it has nothing to do with Hezbolla, that is difficult for me to swallow. Notice the mention here:

\"Rice praised Siniora for securing an agreement with Hizbollah cabinet members in Lebanon to seek an immediate ceasefire that would include the disarming of militias.\"

Uhm, you've got members of the terrorist organization openly in your cabinet and yet you claim no involvement with Hizbollah? Methinks she doth protest too much.

I don't think they have a choice, Hezbollah has become a part of them. When the Israeli's pulled out of there last time and the U.N. declared in resolution 1559 (or whatever number it was) that Lebanon must gain control of the southern areas and police the streets they must have known then that Lebanon couldn't control Hezbollah and instead of just issuing a wishful thought as a solution they should have called for multi-national forces to aid them.
Now, instead, we had to wait for Syria and Iran to build up Hezbollah's armament and after Hezbollah provoked another major war NOW we will see the U.N. attempt to call for multi-national forces to step into a hornets nest instead of doing it back when Hezbollah was reeling from their last ass whooping!

And people wonder why I despise the John Kerry's of the political world!?!? Heh!!!

FACT: hezbollah has katyusas
FACT: katyushas are a WW2 weapon
FACT: katyushas are dumb-fire rockets.
FACT: hezbollah is shooting them in the general direction of Israel.

so how does one target a civilian who has zero target intelligence and cannot see any targets with a weapon that gives no guarantees of hitting anything?

Ferno wrote:FACT: hezbollah has katyusas
FACT: katyushas are a WW2 weapon
FACT: katyushas are dumb-fire rockets.
FACT: hezbollah is shooting them in the general direction of Israel.

so how does one target a civilian who has zero target intelligence and cannot see any targets with a weapon that gives no guarantees of hitting anything?

To use an analogy from Descent, what you are implying would be the same as saying that shooting Fusion randomly down a long hallway that is empty in hopes someone will fly out and be hit by it, is not aiming for a kill, correct?

Ferno wrote:FACT: hezbollah has katyusas
FACT: katyushas are a WW2 weapon
FACT: katyushas are dumb-fire rockets.
FACT: hezbollah is shooting them in the general direction of Israel.

so how does one target a civilian who has zero target intelligence and cannot see any targets with a weapon that gives no guarantees of hitting anything?

Was good enough for Hitler.

Hezbullah has katushas and other longer range missiles. One was fired at Afula last week.

Katushas are indeed an old weapon (though i completely fail to see the revelence) that have been enhanced by packing them with all sorts of metal bits, as eight train workers would testify. Well they can't really testify 'cause they havn't found all the peices of them yet.

Yes they are \"dumb fire rockets\" not precision ones, i again fail to see the relevence.

Yes they are \"generally\" firing into Israel. I'm not sure of the latest figures, around 2500 i think since all this began. 2500 missiles fired into an area of about 30 miles square.

Ferno wrote:FACT: hezbollah has katyusas
FACT: katyushas are a WW2 weapon
FACT: katyushas are dumb-fire rockets.
FACT: hezbollah is shooting them in the general direction of Israel.

so how does one target a civilian who has zero target intelligence and cannot see any targets with a weapon that gives no guarantees of hitting anything?

Simple, you pack the tips of those rockets with ball bearings just like they do with car bombs and suicide bomber vests, and you aim it at the concentrated areas of the general population, just like they do with suicide bombers and car bombs, and you do it without any warning to the general population.

That is how you target civilians with rockets.

It's obvious who their target is, just like it's obvious that you want to ignore that part of the equation because it becomes difficult to excuse the behavior of Hezbollah when you objectively consider what they are doing.

Ferno wrote:FACT: hezbollah has katyusas
FACT: katyushas are a WW2 weapon
FACT: katyushas are dumb-fire rockets.
FACT: hezbollah is shooting them in the general direction of Israel.

so how does one target a civilian who has zero target intelligence and cannot see any targets with a weapon that gives no guarantees of hitting anything?

C'mon Ferno. You know better than that. If they weren't aiming at civilians, they wouldn't be shooting the rockets in the general direction of a city. The fact they are successfully hitting urban areas proves they they have better intelligence and better aim than you claim. Let's not ignore who the instigators where- you don't cross over a border and kidnap soldiers if you're not meaning to start something. It seems to me that it's Hezbollah's responsibility to stand down and return the soldiers- Israel has given them clear terms for ending the hostilities- and those terms amount to returning things to their previous state.

Israel won't let it return to the prvious state Snoop. There will be a massive presence of troops in southern Lebanon (below the Litani) until a worthwhile int' force arrives. Otherwise nothing will have changed and it'll all start again in a few years. Somthing which no-one wants.

I hope my dad's family is alright.
Good thing that I'm borned here in the USA.

Flabby Chick wrote:Israel won't let it return to the prvious state Snoop. There will be a massive presence of troops in southern Lebanon (below the Litani) until a worthwhile int' force arrives. Otherwise nothing will have changed and it'll all start again in a few years. Somthing which no-one wants.

God I hope you are right about you guys not stopping until major change begins! As far as waiting on a "worthwhile international force"...that's a bit of an oxymoron there isn't it?!? We haven't seen a "worthwhile" international force since the early '40's when we all got together to chase down that little pencil dick with the funny mustache!!

My hopes and prayers are with you and your country Flabby.
Here's to the hope that the international community has finally had just about enough of state sponsored terrorism and the way the persians and arabs attack Israel and the west by way of their palestinian proxy!
And piss on the press that doesn't understand what the hell is going on! They report on this whole struggle as if a few suicide bombers and a few rockets lobbed into Israel every other week is an acceptable status quo!! The reporting I've seen seems to have the undertones of a lament that 'we just need to get back to that warm fuzzy time where the terrorist attacks were sporadic, where sometimes no Israeli's died for weeks at a time and stop all this infernal bombing....'
Heh!

Will Robinson wrote:They report on this whole struggle as if a few suicide bombers and a few rockets lobbed into Israel every other week is an acceptable status quo!!

yep. I listened to a lady last night insisting on two points:
1: that it was legitimate for Hizbollah to hide in the civilian population because they were oppressed
2: that under NO circumstances could Israel fire back if Hezbollah was hidden among the civilian population.

Well, THAT gives Israel a lot of options, doesn't it.

Not a word of condemnation out of her for the rockets being fired into Israel with the INTENT of hitting civilian targets. That is DIFFERENT somehow.

its just... amazing.

This is the Hezbollah strategy. Deliberatly force Israel to hit civilians because it is the ONLY way they can stop Hezbollah. They are stopping the civilians from retreating after the leaflets are dropped. They are putting rocket launchers next to apartment buildings full of people. And when Israel takes out that launcher to stop it from killing Israeli children, Israel apologizes and mourns for the loss of life, but Hezbollah celebrates their childrens bloody corpses as another victory against Israel.

To quote Golda Meir: “We can perhaps forgive them for killing our children, but we can never forgive them for making us kill their children.”

How can those rockets coming into Israel be stopped? I mean their so easy to hide and it only takes one person to launch them so how can they be stopped. They can be fired right over the top of any peacekeepers... Can someone clue me on this?

I am very pro Israel so I hope your family is ok FC... and that quote by Golda Mier in Kilarins post is an awesome statement but I would never forgive them for killing Israeli children.

Bee

Bettina wrote:I am very pro Israel

I don't think Israel is perfect, they have caused their own share of the problems. But I simply do NOT see how anyone rational can look at this situation and say that Israel doesn't have a right and need to stop those rockets. They didn't start the fighting, they were attacked, they HAVE to stop the attacks.

Bettina wrote:How can those rockets coming into Israel be stopped?

I wish I could think of a better way than what they are doing, but I don't think there is. Short of nuking the entire country, they just have to blow each launcher away as soon as it pops up, then they are going to have to get a saftey zone under strict control, and eventually they need to cut off the supply. Thats where this is going to get VERY messy. We are looking at a potential WWIII here.

Bettina wrote:I hope your family is ok FC

Amen to that. We'll be praying for you Flabby. And I pray for the folks in Lebanon as well. It's not the childrens fault they are being used as shields. And I'll be praying for ALL of us, because I'm afraid this is just the begining of something that is going to get VERY ugly.

Ok... I know that the U.N. is basically powerless so this may sound like a stupid question. Can Israel ask the U.N. for protection? What would the U.N. say if Israel asked that very question.

Bee

Kilarin wrote:What REALLY bugs me is that I keep hearing people say that Israels response is "disproportionate".

This ISN'T some kind of game. If you shoot at someone, you can only expect that they will shoot back with the biggest baddest guns they have. The GOAL is to be disproportionate. To hit so hard, that the enemy won't try to hurt YOU again.

And yes, Israel's response HAS been disproportionate. Hezbollah is deliberatly targeting civilians. Israel is targeting millitary targets, which, unfortunantly, Hezbolla is hiding in civilian areas.

And for the Lebanon government to claiming that it has nothing to do with Hezbolla, that is difficult for me to swallow. Notice the mention here:

"Rice praised Siniora for securing an agreement with Hizbollah cabinet members in Lebanon to seek an immediate ceasefire that would include the disarming of militias."

Uhm, you've got members of the terrorist organization openly in your cabinet and yet you claim no involvement with Hizbollah? Methinks she doth protest too much.

What they mean by disproportionate is that Israel started the attacks on Hizbollah due to two soldiers being kidnapped. That is not a reason for war. The rocket attacks came after the Israely air strikes. Israel's whole reason for this war baffles me. You lose two soldiers, who you may be able to retrieve through negotiations. I'm not sure how many Israely soldiers died so far, but I know it is more than two. Now even if Hizbollah killed those two soldiers, it still would of not effected the country as bad as this war is.

{Hawk}Liquid wrote:

Kilarin wrote:What REALLY bugs me is that I keep hearing people say that Israels response is "disproportionate".

This ISN'T some kind of game. If you shoot at someone, you can only expect that they will shoot back with the biggest baddest guns they have. The GOAL is to be disproportionate. To hit so hard, that the enemy won't try to hurt YOU again.

And yes, Israel's response HAS been disproportionate. Hezbollah is deliberatly targeting civilians. Israel is targeting millitary targets, which, unfortunantly, Hezbolla is hiding in civilian areas.

And for the Lebanon government to claiming that it has nothing to do with Hezbolla, that is difficult for me to swallow. Notice the mention here:

"Rice praised Siniora for securing an agreement with Hizbollah cabinet members in Lebanon to seek an immediate ceasefire that would include the disarming of militias."

Uhm, you've got members of the terrorist organization openly in your cabinet and yet you claim no involvement with Hizbollah? Methinks she doth protest too much.

What they mean by disproportionate is that Israel started the attacks on Hizbollah due to two soldiers being kidnapped. That is not a reason for war. The rocket attacks came after the Israely air strikes. Israel's whole reason for this war baffles me. You lose two soldiers, who you may be able to retrieve through negotiations. I'm not sure how many Israely soldiers died so far, but I know it is more than two. Now even if Hizbollah killed those two soldiers, it still would of not effected the country as bad as this war is.

Hizbollah fired two rockets into northern Israel from Lebanon on July 12th and the same day crossed into Israel, killed three soldiers and captured two. Eight Israeli soldiers died that day. If this isn't an act of war, nothing is....

I think they got sick of it finally...

Bee

Israel is quite capable of crushing Hezbollah; the problem is, world opinion usually stops them from doing what's neccessary. Other than the US, Israel doesn't have many friends. With any luck they'll finish the job, for once.

{Hawk}Liquid almost assumes there's no history of conflict here. Israel has been forced to give up land to Palestineans over and over, only to be attacked again and again. They have every right to be pissed, and frankly, this is a golden opportunity to land a deathblow to one of the more dangerous terrorist organizations in the Mid East. The news story should be that Hezbollah is full of cowards who would shield themselves with women and children. I don't like that they died, and it would be nice if there were some way around it, but war isn't easy. It isn't pretty, and in a perfect world, wouldn't happen. Unfortunately, as long as people inhabit the earth, there are going to be wars, and acting civilized is not going to work when fighting barbarians.

UN protection? Great idea, in theory, but when you consider that the rest of the world eats up Palestinian propoganda, and there are plenty of Israel-hating tyrants in the UN, it's pretty clear that Israel is best left to finish this on their own.

{Hawk}Liquid wrote:What they mean by disproportionate is that Israel started the attacks on Hizbollah due to two soldiers being kidnapped. That is not a reason for war.

Ok, I REALLY don't get this. Are you saying you do NOT consider a border incursion by armed men who attack and kill 3 soldiers and kidnap 2 to be an act of war?. Honestly?

{Hawk}Liquid wrote:You lose two soldiers, who you may be able to retrieve through negotiations.

They negotiated. The soldiers were not returned. The condition for the return of the soldiers was that they release a criminal who bashed in a 4 year old girls skull with a rifle butt just because whe was jewish, and threw a man out of his wheel chair and into the ocean to drown, again, just because he was jewish.

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't have negotiated at all. You can't negotiate with terrorists, it gets you the opposite of what you want because it convinces them that the tactic works. So next time they go for something even bigger. You NEVER negotiate.

Where do YOU draw the line? How many rockets fired at citizens, how many border incursions by armed forces, how many soldiers dead and kidnapped? When would you decide it was worth fighting over and when should they simply sit back and take it?

{Hawk}Liquid wrote:What they mean by disproportionate is that Israel started the attacks on Hizbollah due to two soldiers being kidnapped.

There is a such thing as "history", and it stretches back more than just one month. It's pretty significant in this case.

Firewheel, you have got to be kidding me. They keep giving up land? This land that they have been giving up was never theirs in the first place. Jews have maintained that this land was the promised land for them, coincidentally, so have Palestinians. Each one says it's theirs, the ONLY reason the Jews have control is that WE supply them with helicopters, tanks, missiles, nuke materials, and everything else. The Palestinians were there, the Israelites walked in and said \"You know what..our god promised us this land, so it's ours now\"...what the heck would you do in a situation like that?

I don't think there should be a ceasefire now though...let Israel put out the flames. Let them take care of the business, it's started, let them finish it. They at least have competent commanders and leaders so they won't end up with an Iraq situation.

Yes Fire he's right, up to a certain point. Israel is giving back land not giving it up, and i really can't be bothered to point out where Zuruck is wrong, not when it's hectic outside.

It's ironic that the country was going through a massive social and political crisis because of this giving back lands process. We left Lebanon, a year to the week we left Gaza, we were on course to leave the west bank and there were rumlings of addressing the thorny issue of talking to the Sirians about the Golan. All this was going on when Hezbullah started to be silly.

Makes you think doesn't it. Do the surrounding Arab states actually need Israel as an enemy, rather than a peace partner? Hey Hum.

Zuruck wrote:Firewheel, you have got to be kidding me. They keep giving up land? This land that they have been giving up was never theirs in the first place.....

It kind of depends on how far back you want to go.
Wasn't it originally called Judea and the Romans took it from the jews?

As a result of the First Jewish-Roman War (66–73), Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Second Temple, leaving only the Western Wall. In 135, following the fall of a Jewish revolt led by Bar Kokhba in 132–135, the Roman emperor Hadrian expelled most Jews from Judea, leaving large Jewish populations in Samaria and the Galilee. He also changed the name of the Roman province of Judea (Israel) to Syria Palaestina named after the Philistines as an insult to the now conquered Jews.

from here

Then the Arabs took it from the Romans and held it for a thousand years?

Then WWI happened and the French and the English got to play Risk with all the pieces and there was a Zionist movement in the early 1900's to regain control of the holy land for the jews which never quite materialized because WWII happened....

Then the ever sanctimonious europeans decided that "the jews were troublesome people" and should be sent back to where they came from ie; chop up the area around what is now Israel and Jordan and so the victorious powers from WWII declared Israel belongs to the Jews and the rest of the people there needed to move back to Jordan.

So if you want to be anal about it, Israel does belong to the Jews, the Romans started it, and it was primarily England and France who stirred it up and brought it to a boil...funny how the people living in those two countries are some of the most vocal critics of how the U.S. is dealing with the aftermath of their failed experiment into colonizing the world.

Bottom line for me is forget about who used to own it thosands of years ago or even prior to 1948 because the Jews have it now and they got it with "the worlds" approval.

So now its time for the losers to recognize they will never be allowed to kill all the jews and they will never be allowed to take back what they think was theirs.
And it's time for all of us to step up to the plate and hammer out a final victory while the enemy is still using suicide vests, dumb rockets and as of late the occasional smart missile instead of letting things fester and have Iran or Syria provide their Proxy Warriors something a little more deadly to put on the missiles!

Sometimes you just have to step into it, take a punch or two and just absolutely kick the other guys ass to be able to end a fight. The end of this fight is LONG overdue!!

Not to mention nobody wanted that land till the Jews had it and developed it.

I can't believe you guys are talking about such immature issues while somewhere in California Mel Gibson is being charged with a DUI.

Will Robinson wrote:It kind of depends on how far back you want to go.
Wasn't it originally called Judea and the Romans took it from the jews?

meh... but didn't Abraham take it from the local arabian tribes before that? Exodus... movement of jah people (for years i thought that song said "EXODUS!! move a bunch-a people")

pre-abrahamic history of palestine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... oric_times

Gooberman wrote:I can't believe you guys are talking about such immature issues while somewhere in California Mel Gibson is being charged with a DUI.

seriously man you are a master lolz gland masseuse. Stimulating Lolamine release into the surrounding tissues.

roid wrote:but didn't Abraham take it from the local arabian tribes

Nope. Abraham didn't take ANY land. He bought a small place as a burial plot though. The arabs didn't EXIST in Abrahams day, because Abraham is their ancestor. Yes, thats the really ironic bit. the arabic peoples claim decent from Ishmael, the son of Abram and Hagar. The Jews claim decent from Isaac, the son of Abraham and Sarah.

It's a family squabble. And a darn good argument for monogamy.

Joshua took land. And he took it from the Cananites.

so, who were the cannanites? how do they fit into all of this genetically/culturally. and what happened to them? (where are they now?)

edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan <-- woo, (begins reading).

They were not wiped out JUST by Joshua. They were around a LONG time after him, and got to play paybacks a LOT.

you know what I find interesting? in an article, they said Hezbollah fired over 200 rockets, killed one person and wounded a few people. to me that's just a random chance. Of course if you do saturation fire you're bound to hit... something.

the two points (rocket truck to town) were 40km away. you can't even see a town that's 40km away. If anyone has proof of how Hezbollah can accurately target areas that are filled with civilians; by all means, show me how. I want to see it.

targeting with a rocket is not the same as targeting with a car bomb. a rocket goes.. 'over there'. a car bomb doesn't go off til it's right on top of people.

btw, two soldiers crossed over to lebanon and were arrested in a town. this is confirmed by no less than three sources.

If i pay for the ticket, you wanna come for a visit Fern.

Fern,

who said anything about accuracy? A terrorist with bad aim is still a terrorist.

They're trying to hit civilians. Period. Now, to do that, they have to fire a LOT of rockets in the general direction of civilian areas. The fact that they don't have the technology to do the damage they'd like to the targets they'd like does NOT excuse the fact that they're trying.

Zuruck,

I recommend reading the link titled \"#1\" from my post directly above yours. In particular, note that the Israelites didn't walk in and take Palestinian land, so much as they bought some land and were granted other parts of it by the UN, and then fought to keep it. Now, if you want to argue the UN had no right to grant that land to Israel, and that Israel is therefore illegitimate, go for it -- but only if you're willing to concede that makes every other nation in the area illegitimate as well, since they were all formed (in their most recent incarnations) by European nations, the League of Nations, or the UN.

It may surprise you to know, the US didn't support Israel until the late 60's or early 70's. Before that, the US mostly supported the Arab nations in the area -- until the Soviets got involved in Iran. After that, the US started to shift its support more to Israel as the one and only liberal democracy in the area.