DescentBB

Life- the entirety of all realms.
Truth- a function in the equation of life.
Universal truth- the truth.
Society’s truth- the perception of the universal truth by the majority.
Personal truth- the perception of the universal truth by a being.
*Right personal truth- a personal truth that is the same as the universal truth but cannot be proven.
*Wrong personal truth- a personal truth that is not the same as the universal truth but cannot be proven.
*Absolute truth- a personal truth that is the same as the universal truth and can be proven. (“I exist” is the only one for humans.)
Object- a being that has no thinking capability. An object has no perception of truth. (rocks and plants)
Animal- a being that has thinking capability but does not have a spirit. An animal’s personal truth is the right personal truth for the physical realm. An animal does not have access to the absolute truth mentioned before.
Human- a being that has a spirit (the spirit thinks). A human, by freewill, has personal truths that may not equal the universal truth. However, a human has access to the absolute truth and may have right personal truths that extend into the spiritual realm.
God- a Being whose absolute truth covers all of the universal truth by His nature. This being also has freewill.
One with God- a being (human or angel) in heaven that shares God’s absolute truth but not his nature (humans and angels are not God, but are made in God’s image).
Fall- the use of freewill to remove oneself from the position \"One with God.\"
Original sin- the lost of absolute truth for humans.
Absolute truth paradox- if one denies his absolute truth by his freewill to do so; such a person is erased from life. In a divine sense, the paradox of God denying one of the universal truths which exist as His nature.

Now at a more Theological level:
Jesus- since He is both God and man, He allows access to all of the absolute truths for man. In other words, he gives man a second chance to become \"One with God\" once man reaches Heaven by proving himself on Earth.

You turned into a blithering fool when you got to the word \"spirit\".

Everything above that was marginal.

Frankly, I want my 60 seconds back!

Who says animals don't have a spirit? (Who says humans do? )

@ Mobius: Sorry Mobius, you read at your own risk.

@ Testiculese: The personal truth I stated above says. And the proof for the human spirit is the absolute truth statement \"I exist.\"

Aggressor Prime wrote:... by proving himself on Earth.

That sounds like a Roman Catholic perspective. Other than that point, I like the general sentiment of what you've written.

As to the trolls, ignore them.

Thats why I said the theological level. On this level, I used a higher level my personal religion to explain things.

The majority of us here are annoyed at people that make topics to preach about religion. Don't let yourself be one of them.

Aggressor Prime wrote:@ Testiculese: The personal truth I stated above says. And the proof for the human spirit is the absolute truth statement "I exist."

If it's under your definition of 'absolute truth', then go prove it.

I think therefore I exist. An animal cannot monitor their thinking since they have no access to a realm that can observe the thinking realm.

Aggressor Prime wrote:I think therefore I exist. An animal cannot monitor their thinking since they have no access to a realm that can observe the thinking realm.

Ok, now explain why animals have no access to a realm that can observe the thinking realm.

Animals don't have spirits, a function of the spiritual realm.

[dyk]Metaphysics is dead.[/dyk]

Aggressor Prime wrote:Animals don't have spirits, a function of the spiritual realm.

Come back when you can prove that animals don't have spirits or "have no access to a realm that can observe the thinking realm".

I can't prove anything but my own existance. See first post.

I'm just wondering what you were trying to prove by posting this in the first place.

[dyk]This box looks really cool[/dyk]

\"Just some thoughts...\"

Aggressor Prime wrote:And the proof for the human spirit is the absolute truth statement "I exist."

How is that a proven true statement ? Hegel is dead, in case you didn't know. Go watch "Dark Star" and pay attention to Bomb #20.

Grendel wrote:

Aggressor Prime wrote:And the proof for the human spirit is the absolute truth statement "I exist."

How is that a proven true statement ? Hegel is dead, in case you didn't know. Go watch "Dark Star" and pay attention to Bomb #20.

well, if you didn't exist, how could you argue about it?

TIGERassault wrote:The majority of us here are annoyed at people that make topics to preach about religion.

You've taken a poll?

If you don't like religious or philosophical topics, skip them. I don't object to opposing points of view, but I object to telling people to just not bring up a topic because you don't like it.

TIGERassault wrote:An animal cannot monitor their thinking since they have no access to a realm that can observe the thinking realm.

I'll have to side with TIGERassault on this one though. We simply don't know exactly what an animals status is. Scientifically or religiously (assuming a Sola Scriptura Christian religion that is)

Grendel wrote:How is that a proven true statement ? Hegel is dead, in case you didn't know.

As Shadowfurry333 pointed out, it's self evident, the only kind of evidence that you can absolutely rely upon. Hegel's current status has nothing to do with it, and wouldn't even if he were alive.

Top Gun wrote:I'm just wondering what you were trying to prove by posting this in the first place.

And I thought they were interesting thoughts presented in an interesting and thoughtful manner.

But then, I enjoy thinking about thought, whether from a religious perspective or secular. Anyone here read Godel, Escher, Bach?

Kilarin wrote:As Shadowfurry333 pointed out, it's self evident, the only kind of evidence that you can absolutely rely upon. Hegel's current status has nothing to do with it, and wouldn't even if he were alive.

Well, there've been two different statements floating around.
I think, therefore I am--intuitive.
I think, therefore I am an immaterial soul--far from intuitive.
edit: Note to self: Double negatives are bad.

i fail to see why humans possess spirits but animals don't.

who's to say that dolphins don't have religion?

Even dogs, they have religion - you are their god.

roid wrote:Even dogs, they have religion - you are their god.

Dogs look around and say:
Wow, these people, they feed me, they house me, they groom me, they love me, they care for my every need...
THEY MUST BE GODS!

Cats look around and say:
Wow, these people, they feed me, they house me, they groom me, they love me, they care for my every need...
I MUST BE A GOD!

roid wrote:i fail to see why humans possess spirits but animals don't.

From a biblical stance,

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Note that the Hebrew words here translated "living soul" are "Chay Nephesh". "living being". The link to the text is in the "strongs numbers" version, so you can click on each word and confirm the translations.

But note also:

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

The phrase "living creature" here is ALSO "Chay Nephesh".

Furthermore, we have the Ecclesiastes quote:
Ecc 3:21 Who really knows if our spirits go up and the spirits of animals go down into the earth?

From a Christian perspective, the answer to the question of animals spiritual state is, "that's not your story or your business".

Is there any other stance than the christian stance?
Coz the biblical stance interests me about as much as a bucket of mud. And this isn't that \"magic mud of interest\" kindof new fangled mud, coz THAT mud is more addictive than Everquest!

a Dolphin religion would not be christianity.

Kilarin wrote:And I thought they were interesting thoughts presented in an interesting and thoughtful manner.

Heh, don't mind me; I just have an inherent and irrational hatred of the entire field of philosophy.

I would think that one of the defining characteristics of having a soul (at least in the Christian sense of the word) would be sentience, and even sentience is a somewhat fuzzy topic. To the best of my knowledge, the only animals (besides us) that could even be considered to have achieved sentience would be whales, dolphins, and potentially chimpanzees.

roid wrote:Is there any other stance than the christian stance?

Of course. But I would have less to say about those. I know the basics of Buddhist reincarnation, but nothing more than the basics. I can't tell you what the Koran says. Many of the "New Age" philosophies lean close to the Buddhist I believe. And the humanist /naturalist perspective is generally that both animals and humans are alive in a similiar sense, spirit has no meaning, life is short, and then you are dead for a very long time.

I spoke from a Christian perspective because, duh, I'm a Christian.

Aggressor Prime wrote:I think therefore I exist. An animal cannot monitor their thinking since they have no access to a realm that can observe the thinking realm.

Some animals can think quite well. Example.

You cannot prove that animals don't have spirits as can be seen in my statement of human absolute truth. However, it would be logical that they don't just as it would be logical that my religion (Roman Catholicism) is the only right religion. As you can see, we all have our spin of personal truth and therefore I can't prove to you that animals don't have souls just as I can't prove to you my religion is right.

BTW, this post was intended more for philosophical discussion than theological. Sorry if I offended anyone. I am not trying to convince anyone that my religion is the right one as can be misinterpreted in the message above. The use of my religion above is an example.

Dark Star and Bomb #20. Loved that movie.

Ford Prefect wrote:Dark Star and Bomb #20. Loved that movie.

Let there be light!