DescentBB

Seems a 120 year old math puzzle has finally been solved:

\"Mapping the 248-dimensional structure, called E8, took four years of work and produced more data than the Human Genome Project, researchers said.\"

\"The team said their findings may assist fields of physics which use more than four dimensions, such as string theory.\"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6466129.stm

I suspect this is important, just not sure how.

It's 'bout time.

Wonder what took them so long.

woodchip wrote:I suspect this is important, just not sure how.

This is a monumental achievement. No longer will car keys, socks and remote controls remain lost. :O

JMEaT wrote:

woodchip wrote:I suspect this is important, just not sure how.

This is a monumental achievement. No longer will car keys, socks and remote controls remain lost. :O

O_O Really! I must run off and patent this new invention before someone else does! :P

JMEaT wrote:

woodchip wrote:I suspect this is important, just not sure how.

This is a monumental achievement. No longer will car keys, socks and remote controls remain lost. :O

Well, they may not be lost anymore but you still wont find them.

It's not as much a \"puzzle\" as an ultra-massive \"mapping\" project.

\"E8\" is the name given to a highly complex mathematical group structure. This structure was fully worked out in detail by an international team of mathematicians.

To a math geek like me, this particular structure is very, very interesting because of the number and variety of symmetries it possesses.

To a physicist, this structure is even more interesting because it may be able to help resolve issues in higher-dimensional physics.

[Edit: My college undergrad research project involved mapping a much, much, much smaller group. But after doing some time-tests, it would have taken my little 100MHz computer up to about five months to finish (which would have been well after my graduation)! I can't even begin to imagine the computing power this project required.]

I bet Drakona had kittens when she saw this!!

Meanwhile i'm trying to help my ten year old with fractions....and failing.

Kittens? LOL...

Is \"so-and-so had kittens\" a British equivalent of \"got extremely excited\"?

In the Midwest they say \"so-and-so had a cow\" instead of kittens.

Yes i suppose it is a British expression. I could have said 'Drakona probably wet her knickers....' but i was being polite.

Yeah, but... kittens. I should explain what makes it so funny: her maiden name is Catherine Catlin.

Foil wrote:[Edit: My college undergrad research project involved mapping a much, much, much smaller group. But after doing some time-tests, it would have taken my little 100MHz computer up to about five months to finish (which would have been well after my graduation)! I can't even begin to imagine the computing power this project required.]

Several weeks on a supercomputer, from memory. Quite like you'd expect.

What exactly does "mapping" do for the record?

The way I'm using the term, \"mapping\" is semi-analogous to the Genome Project. You take a known structure, break it down into it's individual elements, and go through every single one to enumerate/list them, as well as the individual properties they have (how they relate to other elements, what happens for interactions between them, etc.)

The goal is to end up with a detailed \"map\" (list of every single element and all their properties), which can be used to look into higher-order properties of the group itself, like symmetries, patterns, whatever might be interesting or useful.

[In the case of my research project, I was looking to disprove a hypothesis that \"every group of type X has property Y\". I had found a group of \"type X\" that I didn't think had \"property Y\", but in order to prove it, I had to go through every single element of the group, which ended up taking too much computing time (at least, for the machine I was using).]

woodchip wrote:"The team said their findings may assist fields of physics which use more than four dimensions, such as string theory."

Given that "String Theory" is essentially a religion (because it most certainly is NOT a scientific theory), I find that very hard to believe.

I wouldn't necessarily call \"String Theory\" a theory or a religion. It's essentially an intriguing concept, which would have big consequences if true, but which currently has very little if anything to back it up.

Honestly, I'm not sure I see how the mapping of E8 will help \"string theory\" at all. I would think it has more application to particle physics, which makes heavy use of mathematical group structures.

I have not much knowledge about group theory, but what do you mean with \"map\" them ?

See my post above in response to a similar question.

I'm a physicist, unfortunatly group theory wasn't on my schedule in study.

Does have E8 has a finite number of elements ? The only Lie group I know of that have is SU(1) ^^

So is it ment to search for a fundamental representation ? or what properties are ment ?

I'm sorry for not answering this until now.

You are correct, E8 is not a finite group (it does not have a finite number of elements).

I apologize if I caused any confusion when I talked about mapping \"every\" element; I guess I was trying too hard to explain it in simpler terms. In the case of infinite groups, they're actually mapping the representations of the group. The E8 project is actually part of a larger effort to create an \"Atlas\" of the representations of the Lie Groups (home page).

I did a little reading up on the E8 project, and here are some of the most informative links I found (all at the American Institute of Mathematics website):
\"Mathematicians Map E8\"
\"What is E8?\"
\"E8 and Physics\"

Foil wrote: To a physicist, this structure is even more interesting because it may be able to help resolve issues in higher-dimensional physics.

Sorry for this necroposting, but there is huge movement on the E8-market.

Nothing more than "An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything" is claimed based on E8 symmetry. http://arxiv.org/abs/0711.0770

Honestly, I do not understand this paper, but I think it connects all known particles to particular representations of E8, so all those quarks, electrons, myons, neutrinos are essential the same ...

Please let me say, that this strategy has been really successul in classifying the hadronic spectrum (neutron, proton, pions, kaons, sigmas, deltas ...) in terms of SU(3) symmetries (by Gell-Mann, as far I remember)

So this is really freakingly interesting. As far this paper goes, there are 40 elements still unassigned, so they propose the existance of 40 unknown particles with specific properties. If even one of them would be found, it's really worthy for nobel prize without any serious doubt.

(forgot where i got it off of, saved it to my desktop awhile ago)

248 dimensions? cant map so many axis to my joystick

but to be more serious, if i recall right in theory vector-math can handle as much dimensions as you want.

This person should be taken seriously because the nice thing about his work is that it only requires the three dimensions plus time that we know about. It does not require any extra dimensions. When the LHC turns on in early 2008 it will be looking for the higgs and those extra dimensions which string theory predicts. String theorists should worry because if Lisi is right and the LHC fails to find the extra dimensions, then string theory will be dead. I never believed in strings so this is really interesting.

Bee

Bet51987 wrote: I never believed in strings so this is really interesting.

Bee

If you don't believe in strings then explain the existance of yarn.

Spaceboy wrote:
(forgot where i got it off of, saved it to my desktop awhile ago)

That's xkcd #171.

Capm wrote:If you don't believe in strings then explain the existance of yarn.

When the LHC comes on line it’s going to be Kool. Strange things are going to take place and some theories, like strings, have a good chance of becoming dead but at the same time new theories may be born and I can't wait to hear the results. If anyone is interested, I read a very good book called "The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next" by Lee Smolin.

Anyway, to answer your question... "Yarn" is a word sometimes used to describe a detailed account of a real or fictitious series of events for the amusement of those who wish to listen... Like strings.

Got you....

Bee

E8 or the ToE (Theory of Everything) isn't about string theory at all.

Munk wrote:Nothing more than "An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything" is claimed based on E8 symmetry. http://arxiv.org/abs/0711.0770

Honestly, I do not understand this paper, but I think it connects all known particles to particular representations of E8, so all those quarks, electrons, myons, neutrinos are essential the same ...

Please let me say, that this strategy has been really successul in classifying the hadronic spectrum (neutron, proton, pions, kaons, sigmas, deltas ...) in terms of SU(3) symmetries (by Gell-Mann, as far I remember)

So this is really freakingly interesting. As far this paper goes, there are 40 elements still unassigned, so they propose the existance of 40 unknown particles with specific properties. If even one of them would be found, it's really worthy for nobel prize without any serious doubt.

That's more than "freakingly interesting", that's a huge development!

If all the different physical particles can be seen as different representations of E8, that means the structure of E8 could presumably help solve the ToE.

For those who don't know, the "Theory of Everything" is essentially the Holy Grail of Physics. Einstein and many others have tried (and failed) at finding a single structured theory which ties together all the different particles and forces. If this works out, it would be a huge leap for Physics.

@Munk @ Foil: simply wow. I don't understand much about what you are talking but I kind of understand what it will mean for physics and our understanding of the world. Sounds like right out of a sci-fi book...

Bet51987 wrote:Anyway, to answer your question... "Yarn" is a word sometimes used to describe a detailed account of a real or fictitious series of events for the amusement of those who wish to listen... Like strings.

Got you....

Bee

Ohhh nice one Bee

Pandora wrote:@Munk @ Foil: simply wow. I don't understand much about what you are talking but I kind of understand what it will mean for physics and our understanding of the world. Sounds like right out of a sci-fi book...

Potentially it opens the door to...everything! Of course, it also could close doors we were hoping would be left open.

I want FTL travel, antigravity and ray guns damn it. I'd settle for a REALLY long life, suspended animation and a triply redundant self-repairing slow boat to the stars..

Theory of Everything: Existence is an equation. (Note I didn't say is represented by an equation) The equation is infinitely long with an infinite amount of sub-equations. Some sub-equations can collapse into multiple answers, these sub-equations reflect choice. In this equation, there is no space and there is no time. Choice only gives the illusion of time and the equation as it enters into one's being gives the illusion of space. Sorry for the philosophical answer, but science will just keep on examining something on a smaller and smaller scale and never arrive at the truth. If this is the truth, it can never be observed, only theorized, due to its timeless nature by which science is constricted.