DescentBB

Religious oppression of women and girls and soon a nuke to \"protect their way of life\" from any liberators. Is this how it will end? Is this the way Islam will win? This is disgusting.

http://www.rferl.org/photogallery/248.html

Bettina

We had folk like this in colonial America. We still have some, but it is not the cultural norm, nor is it the law of the land. It faded here, so it can just as well fade as a norm elsewhere. What they really need is a good slug of poor immigrants like we had.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indecent_exposure

WIKIPEDIA: INDECENT EXPOSURE wrote:Legal Status in the United States

...The act is prohibited by state laws titled variously as Indecent Exposure, Sexual Misconduct, Public Lewdness, and Public Indecency. It is a criminal offense in all fifty states and is punishable by fines and/or imprisonment. Links to state criminal codes may be found at the Cornel Law School Index.

What's the difference? I can legally walk around without a top on, women can't. Frankly i think we should be allowed to walk around naked if so inclined, and all these cultural-norm moral laws are draconian. (note it's always the jesus-freaks who cry for our morals in our culture, boo frigity hoo for the religious right moral police)

Culture takes time to evolve. Remember when Bikinis used to be illegal everywhere? Give 'em time - Iran is rather progressive.

You want oppression? try SAUDI ARABIA

roid wrote:...Culture takes time to evolve....

And some people who live many thousands of miles away in a country far across the ocean will come here and kill you and thousands of your neighbors in protest of their culture evolving...

You let women walk around naked and you will see an increase in crimes of rape and gropping. Men can barely control themselves when women are dressed \"sexy\" what makes you think they will be better if women are naked? It would also degrade women. And most men would not walk around naked for fear of people making fun of his weiner size.

but the only alternative is \"moral police\". You ok with that really? gives me the creeps

But it shouldn't be illegal, Merlin, that's the point. How many women do you think would really want to walk around naked? Right, all the fat ones... (They might as well anyway, that spandex leaves nothing to the imagination)

If a woman wants to take he rtop off 'cause it's hot, why can't she? Funny, you can in Europe, and rape/groping hasn't skyrocketed.

If you puritans go all Taliban on us and refuse to let our women parade around naked I'm going to coordinate an attack, I think we'll go hijack a bunch of caravans and stampede some camels through the unsuspecting crowds in Mecca at prayer time!

Somehow I don't think Bet meant to start a debate about the legality of going \"topless\" in the Western world. (It's a valid subject, but I think it strays from the core topic here.)

The subject of clothing is only a surface-level glimpse at the core issue Bettina was getting at: women in many countries (especially the Middle East) are still considered \"property\", not only culturally and religiously, but legally as well. They're seen as less human, non-important, and without any real rights, which of course leads to cruelty and abuse of every kind.

Not that it doesn't happen in the western world; it often does (and it's a subject worth talking about). In general, though, it's much worse to be a woman in the middle east than here.

Now, it's true that Iran is not as bad as Saudi Arabia or other places (e.g. Afghanistan), but the overall point about cultural treatment of women still stands, even if you don't agree with Bet about how the UN/US should deal with Iran.

Thanks Foil.

Thats exactly what I'm talking about. Removing veils and head dress is not going naked. Remember the Burka in Afghanistan and the oppression of women and girls? How the girls were not allowed to go to school past 8 years old? Along with the primary objective in the invasion was the libertion of women and girls from the most oppressive society the world has ever seen. Most of them are still brainwashed but the girls are back in school now.

The Iranian leader works for the Clerics who are slowly putting in place the strict Sharia law that once ruled Afghanistan. I can see it coming for sure and no internal dissent from females will overcome the power of the clerics and supporters so liberating them will no longer be an option once they obtain a nuke. That nuke is what its all about.

Islam views women as trophys to be kept covered up and stored inside homes. I hate them for that and I hope someone stops those clerics before they get a nuke.

I have to get back to class, but I'm so disgusted with that religion its making me sick. I see some of them here, no veils, and friendly because their not stuck in that environment.

Bettina

My friends mom had to live in Saudi Arabia for 2 years while her husband did some work for Bell Canada there. She had to walk 2 feet behind him at all times.

My question is this. Why do they force their customs on us yet when they move here, we are expected and forced to change our culture/laws to make THEM happy?

CDN_Merlin wrote:My question is this. Why do they force their customs on us yet when they move here, we are expected and forced to change our culture/laws to make THEM happy?

Its the same situation here with the illegals. They beg, scream, and cry for free handouts while the rest of us have to bust our asses to get them....if we're lucky.

Religion, Merlin.

Testiculese wrote:Religion, Merlin.

Once again it's proven that Religion causes trouble. I say we ban Religion.

CDN_Merlin wrote:

Testiculese wrote:Religion, Merlin.

Once again it's proven that Religion causes trouble. I say we ban Religion.

Hm... "over-reaction++ for everyone"!

Foil wrote:

CDN_Merlin wrote:

Testiculese wrote:Religion, Merlin.

Once again it's proven that Religion causes trouble. I say we ban Religion.

Hm... "over-reaction++ for everyone"!

More like sarcasm++

What I want to know is.. what evidence do you have that supports the 'nuke' argument?

Ferno wrote:What I want to know is.. what evidence do you have that supports the 'nuke' argument?

Lets say its just womens intuition and the fact that the Clerics say their not.

Bettina

Bet51987 wrote:

Ferno wrote:What I want to know is.. what evidence do you have that supports the 'nuke' argument?

Lets say its just womens intuition and the fact that the Clerics say their not.

Bettina

I'm afraid you're going to need just a TAD more evidence than that....

Bet51987 wrote:Lets say its just womens intuition and the fact that the Clerics say their not.

Bettina

Unfortunately a feeling is not admissible as evidence. And just because someone that you don't necessarily agree with says something, doesn't mean it's untrue. I could say something that you don't necessarily agree with but it doesn't discount it's validity.

I'll have to beat you to the punch about Iran sitting on oil. They may be a lot of things but they're not stupid. they know the oil can't last forever so they look at other means to supply energy. Solar can't supply the needed energy, nor can wind. Hydroelectric dams? There aren't any bodies of water or rivers large enough.

In China, some families will kill their female child because they want to have a boy, due to the 'one child' law. But I don't see you protesting against that...

No kidding tiger.. The only reason we're hearing about Iran now is because it's the 'in' thing to beat on.

just a quick heads-up:

Iran is a signatory of the Nuclear Nonproliferation treaty, which means they can develop peaceful uses for nuclear energy.

Also, Iran never did enter the public eye until recently, and most of the stories have been non-news. \"Iran enforces dress code\".. Man, it must have been a slow news day when they ran with this.

No kidding Ferno. If you read about this in the more responsible media they note that this crackdown comes around every summer in Iran although it seems a bit more ambitious this year.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6596933.stm

Ferno, I hope your right. A lot of girls freedoms are at stake.

Bettina

roid wrote:but the only alternative is "moral police". You ok with that really? gives me the creeps

Isn't all policing based on morals? You can argue if it is or isn't the moral thing to do, but you can't argue against "moral police".

i.e. the reason I don't pillage and plunder is because it violates my morals, the reason Lothar doesn't is because those said morals are enforced.

<3

I agree with their dress codes, and just because us americans are spoiled with priveledges doesn't mean you should think every culture in the world should be that way.

right. just because it doesn't fit 'our way' doesn't mean it's wrong.

Bet51987 wrote:Ferno, I hope your right. A lot of girls freedoms are at stake.

Bettina

Wait, what did Ferno say?
Besides, I think I'd prefer to have the freedom not to be killed by Western 'collateral damage' than to wear what I want!

Ferno wrote:No kidding tiger.. The only reason we're hearing about Iran now is because it's the 'in' thing to beat on.

just a quick heads-up:

Iran is a signatory of the Nuclear Nonproliferation treaty, which means they can develop peaceful uses for nuclear energy.

Also, Iran never did enter the public eye until recently, and most of the stories have been non-news. "Iran enforces dress code".. Man, it must have been a slow news day when they ran with this.

Propaganda 'R' us!

Behemoth wrote:I agree with their dress codes, and just because us americans are spoiled with priveledges doesn't mean you should think every culture in the world should be that way.

This just shows you don't know the difference between culture and systematic oppression. Not one clue.

http://www.payvand.com/news/07/may/1033.html

TIGERassault wrote:Besides, I think I'd prefer to have the freedom not to be killed by Western 'collateral damage' than to wear what I want!

Thank you for the pick me up this morning. I needed it

Bettina

Ferno wrote:What I want to know is.. what evidence do you have that supports the 'nuke' argument?

For those interested, have a look at the IAEA perspective, and (numerous) linked reports.

Here's the summary of the 22 February 2007 board report

IAEA wrote:G. Summary
26. Pursuant to its NPT Safeguards Agreement, Iran has been providing the Agency with access to
declared nuclear material and facilities, and has provided the required nuclear material accountancy
reports in connection with such material and facilities.
27. The Agency is able to verify the non-diversion of declared nuclear material in Iran. The Agency
remains unable, however, to make further progress in its efforts to verify fully the past development of
Iran’s nuclear programme and certain aspects relevant to its scope and nature. Hence, the Agency is
unable to verify the absence of undeclared nuclear material and activities in Iran unless Iran addresses
the long outstanding verification issues through the implementation of the Additional Protocol (which
it signed on 18 December 2003, but has not yet brought into force) and the required transparency
measures.
28. Iran has not suspended its enrichment related activities. Iran has continued with the operation of
PFEP. It has also continued with the construction of FEP, including the installation of cascades, and
has transferred UF6 to FEP. Iran has also continued with its heavy water related projects. Construction
of the IR-40 Reactor, and operation of the Heavy Water Production Plant, are continuing. In contrast,
there has been no indication of reprocessing related activities at any declared sites in Iran.
29. As underscored by the Director General at the meeting of the Board of Governors in
November 2006 (GOV/OR. 1174, paras 86–94), given the existence in Iran of activities undeclared to
the Agency for 20 years, it is necessary for Iran to enable the Agency, through maximum cooperation
and transparency, to fully reconstruct the history of Iran’s nuclear programme. Without such cooperation and transparency, the Agency will not be able to provide assurances about the absence of
undeclared nuclear material and activities in Iran or about the exclusively peaceful nature of that
programme.

I guess it's a good thing the Fundamentalist Mormons, Fundamentalist Mennonites,The Hutterites, and The Amish don't have nukes or Bettina would be wondering if she was going to end up in ankle length gingham and little triangle head scarves.
There are lots of religious restrictions on women's dress all over the world including in parts of the U.S. but none of it makes Fox News.
Given the extreme unlikelihood, no make that impossibility of any foreign power forcing change on the mainland United States you have much more to worry about extreme conservative Christian groups gaining political power and restricting the freedom of young women to dress and behave in ways that will make them stars on the next Women Gone Wild video.

Ford if you want to be honest in your assessment you would have to acknowledge the difference between other fundimental groups and the Iranian fundi's is that the Iranians have been funding and exporting terrorism for decades on a pretty consistent and plentiful level! They have been consistent in trying to accomplish the destruction of Israel and as recently as a week ago they announced they want to see the Israeli's wiped out.

Also we do have lots of public commentary and debate over the influence Christianity has on our government. Plenty of people in government and citizens active in politics are quite vocal about it and busy making sure we don't end up under Christian rule, you hear the term theocracy thrown around as a dire warning all the time by pundits and the oh-so-concerned celebrities.
You don't ridicule those people for their concerns.

So, considering the way we Americans seem to detest religious rulers it doesn't seem to be such a stretch for Bet to be concerned about the growing threat of fundamental Islam when they are building nuclear weapons and have been actively terrorizing the infidels around the globe! The reality of the group who invented suicide bombings building nuclear bombs should bring them to the top of everyones dangerous fundamentalists list!!

You see, unlike the worst Christian fundi terrorists, who might kill an abortion doctor once every ten years or so, the Islamo-facsists are really good at causing the deaths of thousands of people and are relentless in their grab for supremacy in as many countries as they can infiltrate. Check the worlds hot spot list and you see muslims are involved in almost every war around the globe!

I think it's more than a little disingenuous to equate the threat posed by the Iranian fundi's and the threat posed by the followers of any Christian group. It may be way more popular to do so but certainly isn't a logical or reasonable position to take.

I think, in spite of the ridiculous claims to the contrary, Bets assertion that they are pursuing nuclear missiles and once armed with nukes, the Iranian fundi's will in fact be in a much more powerful position to protect their terror industry and spread their brand of morality is absolutely correct.
She's dead on target in her concerns in spite of her message being unpopular and in conflict with the keepers of the pop-culture dogma.

Will do you honestly think Iran can make a significant difference to the religious and cultural make up of the mainland U.S.?
Do you honestly think any action by Iran will create an islamic state to arise in the U.S.?
Do you honestly foresee a day when Islamic dress codes are enforced in any U.S. city?

So, considering the way we Americans seem to detest religious rulers

Depends quite a bit on your definition of religious rulers doesn't it? I think you have one now. In his own words:
\"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East.\"
Could an atheist ever become President of the United States?

Ford Prefect wrote:Will do you honestly think Iran can make a significant difference to the religious and cultural make up of the mainland U.S.?
Do you honestly think any action by Iran will create an Islamic state to arise in the U.S.?
Do you honestly foresee a day when Islamic dress codes are enforced in any U.S. city?

No, but that isn't my worry. My worry is that we will see them build up a stronghold like China only instead of trying to export cheaply made goods to sell in WalMart and out grow us economically like the Chinese are doing they will continue to start wars against infidels and export terrorism like they have been and we won't be able to stop them. When they control the majority of the worlds oil supply and take over a few more countries in Europe, Africa and Asia it will be a really bad kind of cold war because mutually assured destruction isn't much of a deterrent against the martyr mentality of the godfathers of suicide bombing!

Ford Prefect wrote:

So, considering the way we Americans seem to detest religious rulers

Depends quite a bit on your definition of religious rulers doesn't it? I think you have one now. In his own words:
"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East."
Could an atheist ever become President of the United States?

First of all there is quite a bit of debate surrounding those words you so easily attribute as Bush's own. The quote is being reported from someone three times removed from the alleged conversation and supposedly it was originally recounted by an Arab who doesn't speak English quoting a man (Bush) who doesn't speak Arabic...and it was translated from English to Arabic and back to English and possibly into Hebrew once before the final English translation. Also it was Bush trying to influence an Arab leader...basically either telling him what he thought he wanted to hear or at the very least talking in a way that he thought the Arab might relate to...
So other than that what evidence do you have that Bush is a religious leader? He seems to have fallen out of favor with many of the Christian leadership in the country for not putting enough importance into their desires. So rhetoric aside what kind of Christian, or other religious agenda has he actually pushed for?

The difference between the religious motives of any American leader in government and some of the Muslim leaders is profound and can easily be demonstrated by comparing the laws in the countries in question. In America we remove any reference of god from our government buildings just in case a Muslim or other religion be offended by the mere mention of the predominant faith here.
In Saudi Arabia bibles are confiscated at the airport and they teach jihad against the subhuman jews in their schools. There is no comparison at all really.

Will Robinson wrote:The reality of the group who invented suicide bombings building nuclear bombs should bring them to the top of everyones dangerous fundamentalists list!!

Why yes. Because we all know that running towards the enemy with a fused explosive with you on purpose was an invention, and nobody even considered it before the Islams!
RUBBISH!

Will Robinson wrote:You see, unlike the worst Christian fundi terrorists, who might kill an abortion doctor once every ten years or so,

According to the National Abortion Federation, between 1977 and 2006, anti-abortion terrorism was responsible for 7 murders, 17 attempted murders, 41 bombings, 173 arson attacks, 100 butyric acid attacks, 157 incidents of assault and battery, 4 kidnappings, and 385 death threats And that's anti-abortion alone!
RUBBISH!

Will Robinson wrote:Check the worlds hot spot list and you see muslims are involved in almost every war around the globe!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ongoing_wars
RUBBISH!

Will Robinson wrote:I think it's more than a little disingenuous to equate the threat posed by the Iranian fundi's and the threat posed by the followers of any Christian group. It may be way more popular to do so but certainly isn't a logical or reasonable position to take.

Actually, you're right! Chistians have a much greater chance of controlling this country than Iranians.
RUBBISH!

Will Robinson wrote:No, but that isn't my worry. My worry is that we will see them build up a stronghold like China only instead of trying to export cheaply made goods to sell in WalMart and out grow us economically like the Chinese are doing they will continue to start wars against infidels and export terrorism like they have been and we won't be able to stop them. When they control the majority of the worlds oil supply and take over a few more countries in Europe, Africa and Asia it will be a really bad kind of cold war because mutually assured destruction isn't much of a deterrent against the martyr mentality of the godfathers of suicide bombing!

"We won't be able to stop them"? Gee, you speak as if your country doesn't have thousands of nukes at their disposal as it is. RUBBISH!
"Godfathers of suicide bombing"? RUBBISH!

Will Robinson wrote:In America we remove any reference of god from our government buildings just in case a Muslim or other religion be offended by the mere mention of the predominant faith here.

Wait, so your head of government doesn't have a small prayer at nearly every speech he makes? I mush be hearing things...
RUBBISH!

Will Robinson wrote:and they teach jihad against the subhuman jews in their schools. There is no comparison at all really.

Proof?

Here, you take a look at this and tell me the predominant religion and the degree in which religion plays in ruling the people in all these places and see if Christianity or Islam is at the core of more conflicts around the globe.

As to some of your other claims of rubbish:

Just because somewhere sometime a person in battle rushed forward and blew himself up doesn't mean the tactic is common place among the average combatant. The tactic is however common among Muslim jihadi combatants and it was 'invented' as a tactic by the islamo-facsists.

According to the National Abortion Federation, between 1977 and 2006, anti-abortion terrorism was responsible for 7 murders, 17 attempted murders, 41 bombings, 173 arson attacks, 100 butyric acid attacks, 157 incidents of assault and battery, 4 kidnappings, and 385 death threats And that's anti-abortion alone!

So you really think those number compare with the death toll racked up by fundamentalist islam?!?! They killed close to 3000 in a half a day! They have been bombing and kidnapping and beheading and torturing and murdering and starting wars for decades!! It is ridiculous to try and make the threat of a few christian whacko's out to be the equivalent of the threat realized every day by islamic whacko's. And you shout \"rubbish\" at me?!? Heh!

Oh my god Bush says a prayer that makes him an ayatollah!

Actually, you're right! Chistians have a much greater chance of controlling this country than Iranians.
RUBBISH!

Actually christians always have controlled this country. Go read the founding documents they specifically credit god with providing our rights and wrote our laws to prevent the government from being able to take those rights away!
However, unlike the islamic leaders, the christians in our government support a secular rule of law and won't kill you for praying to a different god than they do...big difference!

As to proof of the Saudi Arabian schools (and many other islamic schools in many other countries) teach jihad and refer to the jews as subhuman...
Go read the text books, I have, you can download them in PDF format.

Shortly after 9/11 the Saudi's went to great lengths to show they were going to change their ways regarding the indoctrination of their youth. They took out full page ads in american newspapers trying to convince us they were on the case and helping to stop the fundamentalists in their country from teaching jihad against infidels...etc.
Here is some text after the hate speech was supposedly removed!
*******************
FIRST GRADE

\" Every religion other than Islam is false.\"

\"Fill in the blanks with the appropriate words (Islam, hellfire): Every religion other than ______________ is false. Whoever dies outside of Islam enters ____________.\"
FOURTH GRADE

\"True belief means . . . that you hate the polytheists and infidels but do not treat them unjustly.\"
FIFTH GRADE

\"Whoever obeys the Prophet and accepts the oneness of God cannot maintain a loyal friendship with those who oppose God and His Prophet, even if they are his closest relatives.\"

\"It is forbidden for a Muslim to be a loyal friend to someone who does not believe in God and His Prophet, or someone who fights the religion of Islam.\"

\"A Muslim, even if he lives far away, is your brother in religion. Someone who opposes God, even if he is your brother by family tie, is your enemy in religion.\"
SIXTH GRADE

\"Just as Muslims were successful in the past when they came together in a sincere endeavor to evict the Christian crusaders from Palestine, so will the Arabs and Muslims emerge victorious, God willing, against the Jews and their allies if they stand together and fight a true jihad for God, for this is within God's power.\"
EIGHTH GRADE

\"As cited in Ibn Abbas: The apes are Jews, the people of the Sabbath; while the swine are the Christians, the infidels of the communion of Jesus.\"

\"God told His Prophet, Muhammad, about the Jews, who learned from parts of God's book [the Torah and the Gospels] that God alone is worthy of worship. Despite this, they espouse falsehood through idol-worship, soothsaying, and sorcery. In doing so, they obey the devil. They prefer the people of falsehood to the people of the truth out of envy and hostility. This earns them condemnation and is a warning to us not to do as they did.\"

\"They are the Jews, whom God has cursed and with whom He is so angry that He will never again be satisfied [with them].\"

\"Some of the people of the Sabbath were punished by being turned into apes and swine. Some of them were made to worship the devil, and not God, through consecration, sacrifice, prayer, appeals for help, and other types of worship. Some of the Jews worship the devil. Likewise, some members of this nation worship the devil, and not God.\"

\"Activity: The student writes a composition on the danger of imitating the infidels.\"
NINTH GRADE

\"The clash between this [Muslim] community (umma) and the Jews and Christians has endured, and it will continue as long as God wills.\"

\"It is part of God's wisdom that the struggle between the Muslim and the Jews should continue until the hour [of judgment].\"

\"Muslims will triumph because they are right. He who is right is always victorious, even if most people are against him.\"
TENTH GRADE

The 10th-grade text on jurisprudence teaches that life for non-Muslims (as well as women, and, by implication, slaves) is worth a fraction of that of a \"free Muslim male.\" Blood money is retribution paid to the victim or the victim's heirs for murder or injury:

\"Blood money for a free infidel. [Its quantity] is half of the blood money for a male Muslim, whether or not he is 'of the book' or not 'of the book' (such as a pagan, Zoroastrian, etc.).

\"Blood money for a woman: Half of the blood money for a man, in accordance with his religion. The blood money for a Muslim woman is half of the blood money for a male Muslim, and the blood money for an infidel woman is half of the blood money for a male infidel.\"
ELEVENTH GRADE

\"The greeting 'Peace be upon you' is specifically for believers. It cannot be said to others.\"

\"If one comes to a place where there is a mixture of Muslims and infidels, one should offer a greeting intended for the Muslims.\"

\"Do not yield to them [Christians and Jews] on a narrow road out of honor and respect.\"
TWELFTH GRADE

\"Jihad in the path of God -- which consists of battling against unbelief, oppression, injustice, and those who perpetrate it -- is the summit of Islam. This religion arose through jihad and through jihad was its banner raised high. It is one of the noblest acts, which brings one closer to God, and one of the most magnificent acts of obedience to God.\"
**************************

So please spare me your indignant cries of rubbish when rubbish is the very core of your protest!

Ford Prefect wrote:Will do you honestly think Iran can make a significant difference to the religious and cultural make up of the mainland U.S.?
Do you honestly think any action by Iran will create an islamic state to arise in the U.S.?
Do you honestly foresee a day when Islamic dress codes are enforced in any U.S. city?

Hi Ford. I know those questions were not asked of me but I wanted to reply to them anyway.
The answer is no to those three questions but my opening post was not about me or the U.S. It was never about me because I live in a free country where I can walk with you instead of behind you. I can go outside and mingle with boys without being afraid of who might see me.... and on and on. You get the message.

I just don't believe that a girl, just born, should be stamped inferior because she happened to be born in the middle east and the point I was making was that any form of liberation for these girls will be virtually impossible once protected with weapons they would not be afraid to use. I think about them all the time and its always bothered me that someday we won't be able to do anything for them.


Will Robinson. Thanks for seeing what I see. Its nice to see some here understand what is really going on in the world today.

Bettina

I remember my sunday school teacher saying the same things, will. \"god is the one true being\", \"Jesus is the only way\", \"all other religions are false\", etc etc

yea all they do is change certain words to fit their needs.

Ferno wrote:I remember my sunday school teacher saying the same things, will. "god is the one true being", "Jesus is the only way", "all other religions are false", etc etc

yea all they do is change certain words to fit their needs.

Did your sunday school teacher ever tell you god will reward you with 17 virgins for your pleasure and you would live forever at his side if you go blow yourself up to kill a jew?!?
Certain words indeed!

Yeah Will, I don't think the Koran explicitly states that. I think it's more \"if you die for your religion, you will be rewarded\". Complete bull but when you have nothing else to look forward to in life the 17 virgins start to sound quite good.