DescentBB

...As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear. -Mother Teresa

After all the good she did she felt no presense of God, neither in her heart or the Eucharist, and after viewing the first part of the Zeitgeist film, and then these words from Mother Teresa's letters, I feel a self vindication of my own hypocrisy, because even though the show must go on, I feel the same nothing that she felt.

Oh, they will make it sound like her faith was being tested, but I know exactly how she felt and thats why I have issues with people who tell me they have communication from God. They don't. There just stuck in a lie.

For those interested in her.... here is the link. She was a great humanist that I intend to find out as much as I can about her.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... -cnn-world

Bee

Bet51987 wrote:I feel a self vindication of my own hypocrisy, because even though the show must go on, I feel the same nothing that she felt.

could it not be said that, if she thought god didn't exist, she wasted her time talking about god?
Sure, by drawing on the christian god archetype and telling people all about that god she was an extra help to people who were already christianity-inclined. But the only reason to do that is because it's easier to work with what you've got - if ppl are christian, then talking to them from a christian standpoint saves time.

But it's just an archetype, i mean it's just one nice story. ANY nice story will do, why do ppl insist on playing favourites.


What was stopping her from going secular? why must the show go on?
Polishing the brass on the Titanic


Community services exist outside of Christianity, Funerals exist outside of Christianity, Choir singers exist outside of Christianity. What is the point in limiting yourself by pretending to be part of the faithful-religious clique if you arn't - torturing yourself with hypocracy. There is a bigger secular world out there that comes with no hypocracy catch.

roid wrote:What is the point in limiting yourself by pretending to be part of the faithful-religious clique if you arn't - torturing yourself with hypocracy. There is a bigger secular world out there that comes with no hypocracy catch.

Because of the people you can hurt. One close to you and the others who look up to you - see you as an exemplary example of a good Christian.

Why do you think she asked for those letters to be burned? Even though she was tormented by what she displayed and what she felt inside, she did not want those letters released to the public.

Bee

so, an enabler for other people's delusions?

Bet51987 wrote:Oh, they will make it sound like her faith was being tested, but I know exactly how she felt and thats why I have issues with people who tell me they have communication from God. They don't. There just stuck in a lie.

Perhaps you are right Bettina. Perhaps you have no communication with God. But that gives you no good justification to deny that OTHERS do.

Something else from the Time article (and from people who knew her personally)

The church anticipates spiritually fallow periods. Indeed, the Spanish mystic St. John of the Cross in the 16th century coined the term the "dark night" of the soul to describe a characteristic stage in the growth of some spiritual masters. Teresa's may be the most extensive such case on record. (The "dark night" of the 18th century mystic St. Paul of the Cross lasted 45 years; he ultimately recovered.) Yet Kolodiejchuk sees it in St. John's context, as darkness within faith. Teresa found ways, starting in the early 1960s, to live with it and abandoned neither her belief nor her work. Kolodiejchuk produced the book as proof of the faith-filled perseverance that he sees as her most spiritually heroic act.

Perhaps you might benefit from reading the works of some of these Church "mystics".

Bet51987 wrote:but I know exactly how she felt and thats why I have issues with people who tell me they have communication from God. They don't. There just stuck in a lie.
Bee

"but I know exactly how she felt"
that one of the most pious and arrogant comments you've ever made Bee. you cannot POSSIBLY know how she felt. have you ever meet her??? have you ever talked to her?? have you in your what 16-17 years gone through the trials in life that she's gone through???. you read a couple of excerpt from a news article and now you're on the same level in life as mother Teresa!!! get a grip now your not only being Hypocritical your being delusional

thats why I have issues with people who tell me they have communication from God. They don't. There just stuck in a lie.

and you know they didn't talk to God how??? just because you don't or cant??? the ONLY one thats stuck in a lie Bee is you, you live it every day by your own admission. it time to grow up and live a life of truth, because the longer you lie to your parents your friends and more importantly to your self the more you will hurt all of them in the end. To thine own self be true

roid wrote:so, an enabler for other people's delusions?

Thats about it.

CUDA wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:"but I know exactly how she felt"

that one of the most pious and arrogant comments you've ever made Bee. you cannot POSSIBLY know how she felt. have you ever meet her??? have you ever talked to her?? have you in your what 16-17 years gone through the trials in life that she's gone through???. you read a couple of excerpt from a news article and now you're on the same level in life as mother Teresa!!! get a grip now your not only being Hypocritical your being delusional

I'm 19 btw.. Pious? You really misinterpreted my meaning. I couldn't compare myself to her if I had a million lifetimes, but the godless feeling she felt inside for most of her life is no different than the godless feeling I feel. There is no sense to the degree of spiritual nothingness because it has no levels or barriers. I just felt relieved that I had the same feelings as a person as powerful as her. Please don't think I compared myself to her in any other way.

CUDA wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:thats why I have issues with people who tell me they have communication from God. They don't. There just stuck in a lie.

and you know they didn't talk to God how??? just because you don't or cant??? the ONLY one thats stuck in a lie Bee is you, you live it every day by your own admission. it time to grow up and live a life of truth, because the longer you lie to your parents your friends and more importantly to your self the more you will hurt all of them in the end. To thine own self be true

I didn't say they didn't talk to God... I said God didn't talk to them. No God did. So, if God didn't talk to Mother Teresa, He surely didn't talk to anyone I know and He didn't talk to Mother Teresa. Do you think for one second that I would believe a God would talk to me if he didn't talk to someone like her? Thats my point.

What I do in church is no different to what you do when you tell stories to your kids about Santa..or the tooth fairy.. and after reading about Mother Teresa, I feel better in the story telling I do. I really needed to hear that about her, and what she said made me feel great. Telling a story that makes someone feel better is a benefit more than a lie. I can live with that.

I would like to hear comments from anyone about the letters...not about me. I want to know if others know what she went through and why she wanted the letters burned.

Bee

Teresa may have lacked the God gene.

As far as I can tell, her most likely reason for pretending to be Christian was that she realised that strong Christians generally had happier and less crime-inclined lives.

As for a feeling of loneliness about a divine being like that, and like Bet has, it really only comes about when a person wants to believe in a God but doesn't out of their own will, mostly because they feel that the chances that a God really does exist are much too low.
Frankly, I find it terribly hypocritical when a person feels like that, but still pretends to be a Christian to \"make someone feel better\". Not because it's against their principle, but because they feel it's beneficial to lie to others like that but utterly terrible to lie to themselves!

Time Magazine wrote:Both Kolodiejchuk and Martin assume that Teresa's inability to perceive Christ in her life did not mean he wasn't there. In fact, they see his absence as part of the divine gift that enabled her to do great work. But to the U.S.'s increasingly assertive cadre of atheists, that argument will seem absurd.

While the depth of her distress seems great, I have no problem with the revelation. Christ himself several times, especially in the Garden of Gethsemane, asked God why he was forsaken. Perhaps the breadth of her ministry led her to feel alienated by God. Many of us, if we acknowledge it, see everything but God in our fellow man locally and globally and often feel the same. We all doubt, but this is what Satan wants us to do, so we have to find Christ in everyone and everything, which is sometimes a monumental task.

Interesting.

For me, hearing that Mother Teresa had times where she didn't feel the presence of God gives me a little bit of encouragement in my own faith, considering the times when I don't feel Him, either.

For Bet, hearing the same gives her encouragement in her belief that God isn't really there.

Could it be just the fact that seeing Mother Teresa as a bit more human and vulnerable is a good thing for all of us?

I've had times (albeit short ones) when I've not felt the presence of God with me, yet I have not ceased to believe.

There are a couple things about the nature of my beliefs that lead to this:

1. I believe that God is sovereign, answers to no one, and certainly doesn't owe anyone anything. Thus, no amount of anything will \"ensure\" that I will feel the presence of God.

2. I base my beliefs on the truths revealed to me in the Bible, not on a feeling. Now this is a tricky one- because it was an experience-based thing that brought me to believe what the Bible says. From that point forth, though, I haven't relied on that \"feeling\" to validate my beliefs, I have relied on the Bible to validate them.

3. I have learned to interpret my experience based on the truth of the Bible, not vice versa. Thus, when something comes up that seems to contradict how I understand the Bible, I investigate further what the Bible says, only to discover that I either misread the experience, or had a incomplete understanding of what the Bible teaches concerning the subject.

4. When I say I've done the above things, let it be clear that it's been in an inconsistent, imperfect way- by my nature as a human I've doubted all sorts of ways, only to be brought back in line with further investigation.


So, I think I can validly say that I agree with Mother Theresa, there are times that I don't feel the presence of God, but I also know that this does nothing to invalidate God's existence or the truth of the Bible.

Well said, Snoopy.

If the Christian faith was based on a feeling or \"spiritual experience\", I wouldn't consider myself Christian, because I don't regularly feel the presence of God.

This actually hits close to home for me, as I grew up in an extremely \"charismatic\" church, where people were looking for that spiritual feeling in all kinds of ways, so when that feeling wasn't there, I felt less spiritual and less connected to God. When I grew up and went to college, I realized that I can't base my faith on that feeling.

What I do in church is no different to what you do when you tell stories to your kids about Santa..or the tooth fairy.. and after reading about Mother Teresa, I feel better in the story telling I do. I really needed to hear that about her, and what she said made me feel great. Telling a story that makes someone feel better is a benefit more than a lie. I can live with that.

just an FYI My kids were NEVER told that Santa, or the Easter bunny or the tooth fairy were real. they were told from day one what the real meaning of Christmas and easter were. I don't lie to my children

let me tell you a story of a little incident that happened to me about 12 years ago Bee.

My wife an I took our family out to a picnic with several friends and their families to a local park. this park had a very nice river flowing through it that had a swimming area. there was probably about 7-800 people swimming at this time so it was pretty crowded. I did have a hard time walking in this river because of the river rock, it was playing hell on the bottom of my feet, but more importantly for me was this voice that I kept hearing that kept warning me that one of my kids might be in danger, 4 of my children my 3 oldest who were 13,11,and 9 at the time along with my 6 year old son wanted to go swimming badly and a couple of men from our group said that they would watch them so I said OK.

they had been swimming about 15 minutes or so and I started to talk to a friend on the shore and turned my back to the water, we had been talking for about 5 minutes, when I heard a voice say turn around and felt a tap on my shoulder. as I turned in a river and park with 7-800 people from about 50 yards away with a noisy stream flowing by so there was a lot of commotion and noise. I looked directly at my 6 year old son already up to his neck in a fast moving section of the river away from all the other adults with my 13 year old son giving chase. I did not need to look around for him I looked directly at him in a crowded noisy park.

I sprinted across the small pond area and got to him just as he was going under. he would have drowned had I not listened to a voice that had been talking to me all morning that something was up. it was a voice so strong that I couldn't ignore it. some times God talks to you in a shout, most times its a whisper or through another individual.

the problem with talking to God, is that most of us do not recognize his voice. we have so much noise going on in our daily life that we don't take the time to Stop what we are doing, quiet our mind, and listen to him talk do us. how can you possibly say that God does not talk to you when you don't even know what his voice sounds like our you have the headphones of life cranked up to 10.

to hear God's voice we must know how to recognize it. Jesus said \"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me\" (John 10:27). We can see this truth illustrated in how farmers relate to their animals. A relative of mine farms a small ranch. Whenever we go out to visit, we always go out to look at his herd. My relative can call all of the cows to him by a simply word. The cows do not respond to my voice at all. What's the difference? The cattle are with my relative constantly. He spends time with them daily and is the one who feeds and cares for them. The cows feel comfortable around him, and they can instantly tell when a stranger is among them. If we are to know God's voice, we must spend time with Him daily.

http://www.allaboutprayer.org/hearing-t ... od-faq.htm

knowing the Voice of God is something that come from familiarity. you do not recognize a strangers voice do you? but I'll be you recognize your Fathers voice or the voice of your best friend in a crowd don't you. its the same thing when you talk and listen to God.

Bet51987 wrote:I didn't say they didn't talk to God... I said God didn't talk to them. No God did. So, if God didn't talk to Mother Teresa, He surely didn't talk to anyone I know and He didn't talk to Mother Teresa. Do you think for one second that I would believe a God would talk to me if he didn't talk to someone like her? Thats my point.

(a) You seem to think that God never spoke to her, yet the article (on p.2) has a lengthy discussion of the conversation she attributed to Jesus prior to her taking up her work in the slums. So what's with the continued "No God did" contention?
(b) What makes you think that Mother Theresa is any more precious in God's eyes than "someone like you"? You fail to understand God's lack of distinction - that's why they call it unconditional love.

Obediance, not feeling.

It's something most Christians struggle with. Particularly in the western culture where \"feeling\" is \"9/10th of the law\".

Ultimately, how she was received into God's presence is between God and her. I find it rather futile and useless to debate over things like this after she has died. It would seem that she was in some contact with others throughout this struggle and it is good to remember that letters and journal entries don't always give the whole picture. Much more goes on in the day to day, minute by minute thought life.

Cuda, Foil, Snoop, great writeups!

My Aunt and Uncle worked with her, on and off, in the 50's/60's/70's, whilst serving in the Salvation Army over there. They both repeated, again and again, how much strength the got from her. The stories they come out with would make your hair curl.

They also said to me that their faith was tested, broken and reformed on a daily basis over there--something which i respect deeply.

I have faith in my kids, the wife, a bottle of beer and Manchester United, and you know what? My Aunt, who's a bloody strong 80 year old (My Uncle died) visits every year (Eng to Israel) to chat about faith n sh1t without preaching.

Some of you could learn a lot from her.

Cuda... That voice you heard about your son being in danger could have been parental intuition, especially since you were not the one watching your kids...Otherwise you will be saying God warned you but not the other kids that I read about in the news.

Your \"Voice from God\" doesn't make any sense. My dad is real...and loving.

Snoopy and Foil... You mention there are times you feel no presence from God which implies that most of the time you do... This is much more than what Mother Teresa felt.

Dissent... Not quite.. She had a hidden contradiction between her mind and her heart where early in her chosen life her mind believed their was a God that she routinely conversed with and prayed to. However, in the last half century of her life, her heart wins out over her mind and she realized that she felt no presence of Him whatsoever. This is the total nothing she experiences, as I do. I'm going to buy her book locally this week, and read it in private.

Bet51987 wrote:Cuda... That voice you heard about your son being in danger could have been parental intuition, especially since you were not the one watching your kids...Otherwise you will be saying God warned you but not the other kids that I read about in the news.

Bet, those children are not Cuda's responsibility. .. how on EARTH is Cuda supposed to be responsible for every child you might read about in the paper.. Then his name would be "Gary Hobson"
Perhaps their parents aren't listening. I do my best to listen, and when I do, it pays off...mostly with "uneventfulness".

I want to know what signifigance mother teresa has over any other humanitarian.

And why one would pick her as an example over, say, organizations meant for providing these types of benefit to people in need.

Because along with everything else, she gave herself. At one time, the pope invited her to Rome to honor her works and presented her with a brand new cadilac. When it was delivered to her weeks later, she sold it to buy food and medicine for the sick.

Melinda Gates gives millions to charity but lives in a billion dollar home. I don't knock her at all, but there are different types of humanitarians and Mother Teresa was the most unselfish one I know.

Bee

Bet51987 wrote:... However, in the last half century of her life, her heart wins out over her mind and she realized that she felt no presence of Him whatsoever. This is the total nothing she experiences, as I do.

Perhaps this is why Mother Theresa wanted the letters destroyed; she didn't want other people coming along later and interpreting her intentions to satisfy themselves.

It's at least worth considering.

I'm going to buy her book locally this week, and read it in private.

Excellent. I applaud your initiative. There is an active thread on this over at Catholic Aswers, on the Apologetics forum. It is perhaps of interest that this story is not new at all, and several articles from back in 2003 regarding this very book are referenced. See, for example,
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0030.html
where we find tidbits like "Fr. Kolodiejchuk's study is just the tip of the iceberg — the documentation submitted to the Congregation for the Causes of Saints runs to eight volumes", so clearly there is more to be read here. The writer of the above linked article makes a case to compare Mother Theresa with Therese of Lisieux. Perhaps, while your out shopping for books, you might consider something from this other Therese as well.

edit: here's another one
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articl ... s0103.html

Bet51987 wrote:However, in the last half century of her life, her heart wins out over her mind and she realized that she felt no presence of Him whatsoever.

Other way round. Her mind's willingness not to be ignorant won over her heart.

Bet51987 wrote:...Foil... You mention there are times you feel no presence from God which implies that most of the time you do... This is much more than what Mother Teresa felt.

I should have clarified; actually, I rarely feel any spiritual presence.

That used to bother me, growing up in a church where if one didn't get the spiritual "feelings", the implication was that you weren't worthy. I remember trying so hard to get that feeling, that even today I wonder if some of the tears and joy I felt were genuinely spiritual, or a product of my emotions at the time.

I've grown up a lot since then, and I've realized that the feeling is much less important than the life I live. There are still those rare occasions that I feel something distinctly spiritual (they're usually when I'm at my lowest points, and through someone's else's interaction in my life rather than a personal "experience")... but I no longer feel like I need some kind of spiritual sensation to be able to call myself a Christian.

...Back to the original topic, the little quotes and excerpts I've seen from the book actually remind me a bit of some of the Psalms where the writer is anguished and questioning God.

Bet, let us know what you think after reading the book. For myself, I think it would be an encouraging read, to see a vulnerable human side to Mother Teresa, to see that even the very best of us have doubts and isolation. But you seem to see something else in it, I'm curious what that is.

Foil wrote:I should have clarified; actually, I rarely feel any spiritual presence.

That used to bother me, growing up in a church where if one didn't get the spiritual "feelings", the implication was that you weren't worthy. I remember trying so hard to get that feeling, that even today I wonder if some of the tears and joy I felt were genuinely spiritual, or a product of my emotions at the time.

Same here. Modern Christianity seems to be very emotionally based - I find the less-oft-seen intellectually based brand far more satisfying.

Bet51987 wrote:Cuda... That voice you heard about your son being in danger could have been parental intuition, especially since you were not the one watching your kids...Otherwise you will be saying God warned you but not the other kids that I read about in the news.

Your "Voice from God" doesn't make any sense. My dad is real...and loving.

I believe there is a very thick line between what is intuitive and when there's something in the back of a person's mind, speaking to that person. I'm a very intuitive person, but there was once or twice (i say twice because I'm still tryign to figure out that 2nd time) when I felt that there was a presence with me. The other times when I knew something was going to happen was from a combination of reasoning and intuition.
I really wish I could go into detail when I make this statement, but I would end up making a very long post about it and then going back to the post for editing to justify my statement. I'll be back later when I'm done with work and school to try to justify why I think this.

Or maybe someone else would know what I'm talking about and speak for me but I wanted to say that right now while the topic's still hot.

Kiran wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:Cuda... That voice you heard about your son being in danger could have been parental intuition, especially since you were not the one watching your kids...Otherwise you will be saying God warned you but not the other kids that I read about in the news.

Your "Voice from God" doesn't make any sense. My dad is real...and loving.

I believe there is a very thick line between what is intuitive and when there's something in the back of a person's mind, speaking to that person. I'm a very intuitive person, but there was once or twice (i say twice because I'm still tryign to figure out that 2nd time) when I felt that there was a presence with me. The other times when I knew something was going to happen was from a combination of reasoning and intuition.
I really wish I could go into detail when I make this statement, but I would end up making a very long post about it and then going back to the post for editing to justify my statement. I'll be back later when I'm done with work and school to try to justify why I think this.

Or maybe someone else would know what I'm talking about and speak for me but I wanted to say that right now while the topic's still hot.

I'm looking forward to hearing about your Guardian Angel or whoever it is thats speaking to you.

Bee

Bet51987 wrote:I'm looking forward to hearing about your Guardian Angel or whoever it is thats speaking to you.

Bee

You are not going to hear God or your guardian angel, or anything else for that matter, because you are resolved that you will base your faith on directly hearing/seeing that God exists. He does not want that. He wants you to be drawn to him by FAITH. For that, YOU are going to have to do a little bit more work, not the other way around. Simply, all you have to do is PRAY. Nothing more, nothing less. And you talk to Him about how you are having a hard time believing that He exists. Yes, God hears you and likes it when you talk to him about your problems.

Thats how it works. God is not going to pop out of a corner and say "surprise!" just for you!

Top Wop wrote:....Thats how it works. God is not going to pop out of a corner and say "surprise!" just for you!

"He" seems to have some sort of aura that he bestows on those close to Him..... but not to Mother Teresa, my priest, me, or anyone else I know outside this forum. A father figure who isn't there can only be a "deadbeat dad" or just plain fiction. The latter being what I believe.

I mean you do disrespect...I understand your meaning but I have a better chance that strings will be found than a diety speaking to anyone.

I ordered the book but its backordered from Amazon so will be here before the end of Sept. I go back to college on the tenth but I intend to make it a priority read. I really want to read that book.

Bee

Bet51987 wrote:I'm looking forward to hearing about your Guardian Angel or whoever it is thats speaking to you.
Bee

Actually, I was talking about the details of why I think there is a thick line between what makes it intuition and what makes it as someone/something in a person's mind that's telling them the situation and what to do. I won't entertain the dbb members about my "Guardian Angel" as you put it.

Intuition is something that gives you the impression of a situation for no logical reason. Whatever that makes you do things was just THERE in your mind and you could feel it deep inside. You were SUPPOSED to do it. Or rather, NOT supposed to do these things. There is just no explaination there to support why you did these things. Parents knowing their child is in danger, but having nothing to rely on but the deep stirring in their chest is what makes it an instinct. They instinctively knew that it was going to happen. Intuition is what makes you quite aware of your surroundings.

As for someone being in your head telling you something, that's something else. For it to tell you to do something, even tho there is no reason to do it, that's still a reason. You did it because someone was telling you to do it. Evidently, you're either questioning that command or talking back, looking for a reason to oppose that statement. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to feel a presence in order to know that something's in your mind telling you the upcoming event/situation. I'll use Cuda's case for example. He didn't mention having felt a presence, but I'll use it anyway because it seems to match for this one. At the back of Cuda's mind, there was this voice all morning warning him that something's going on. And then, when the cirtical situation arises, the voice was strong and clear, which got his attention completely, and guided him to his son, drowning in the hazard end of the water. He may not have felt a presence even at that time, because his entire being was focused on the welfare of his son. All he know afterwards is that he should've listened to that strange voice in the back of his head.

I haven't done research to backup the meaning of intuition and the meaning of having someone else in your mind telling you things. Lack of available time in my part, but that's what happens when one is in college. I will try to put in some time in research this weekend to further validate my points (or lack of, if this long post didn't help at all).

its called faith because you are never given certifyable proof, you never actually get to speak to god in an obvious, clear way, or everyone would join your religion insta, you just think you got a sign or a message through god via flawed logic and/or coincidence

On the contrary, faith is remembering what you know, even when it isn't right in front of you. Its opposite is not reason, but forgetfulness.

It's funny to me how many folks proclaim they'd believe if they saw a miracle--just one! It's easy to say that whey you haven't seen one; you'd be surprised how little you change. Miracles are highly overrated epistemically speaking.

If you've spent any time in a church, any time among mature believers, you've seen a dozen miracles.

When I was in high school, I took part in a program that paired up women in the church for staged friendships. Nothing too formal--over the course of a year, Sandy and I were supposed to get together for coffee, hang out, and generally transfer advice and life experience. Only we never did. We just never got around to it. In fact, the only time I ever heard from her was a Saturday morning after a fiery fight with my boyfriend at a party. Just a cold call--\"Do you need to talk?\" \"Uh . . . yeah, actually, I do.\" \"Yeah, I was praying and I thought that might be the case. . .\"

Coincidence? Perhaps. That was one of the more dramatic moments of my high school career, though. It doesn't seem like much to me now, but she picked the right three hours out of the year to call.

A pastor at my church wasn't paid well and wished for some Warhammer figurines for his son; some were donated to the church. Those of you who knew me ten years ago might know I hated Lothar--personally and passionately; that changed in an instant when he recieved supernatural and audible advice on what to do.

My dad once recieved turn-by-turn directions to a restaurant he'd never been to. My friend's son once recovered from cancer against all medical reason. Exact donations in the nick of time; specific requests answered in specific ways; an audible that brings peace, an inaudible voice that brings answers.

You can write any one of these off as coincidence or psychology or exaggeration or--or something else. In some cases, you just have to deny it happened, and claim I (or my friend or whoever) is lying (and I'll laugh).

But the thing is, this sort of thing is commonplace in the church. It happens all the time. Everyone's got a story or two or ten. Heck, everyone's got stories they've forgotten because it's so commonplace it just doesn't stick out.

I was talking about it with Lothar once. If we were looking at probability alone, we'd see a lot of near misses for every hit. For every pastor who wanted Warhammer figurines and a set got donated, there'd be one who got a couch, one who got a set of dishes, one who got a bag of potatoes. We know what probabilistic matching looks like--and this ain't it.

The distribution is bi-modal. When a Christian begins a sentence with \"God told me to . . . \" they follow it either with something absurdly stupid or exactly, eerily, right. The latter much more common than the former, but depends on the crowd. But at least equal freqency. You don't get near misses--you get lots of far misses and lots of dead accurate hits. It's kinda cool.

But that's neither here nor there. You won't believe in God based on hear-say 'miraculous' anecdotes in a forum post, nor should you. But believe me on this front: to the very best of my analytical abilities, I see miracles. They're a commonplace event.

But here's my point: Whether or not you believe what I see are miracles, I believe I see miracles. Constantly. All the time. And you know what? I periodically struggle with belief anyways!

That's because it's not about reason. It's about faith.

I have found, in my examination of myself and others, that belief is a lot more emotional than most of us admit--even to ourselves. If God is conspicuously absent for a week or two--by my doing or by his prerogative--I start to forget that he's there. Occasionally, when I'm far gone, I start to wonder if he's there. Never mind a miracle two weeks ago, an ironclad evidential case I'm an expert on, a lifetime of fellowship. He's gone for a week, I'm confused and lost. Belief is grounded in emotion. We make the fallacy of being totally caught up in the present and the visible--faith is the triumph of reason over forgetfulness.

Miracles are easy to explain away. Those who saw Jesus literally cast out demons claimed he did it by the power of demons. Or when you don't explain them away, you suppress them or throw them out as data points you can't explain. When the disciples--who had seen Jesus healing the sick and raising the dead--saw him walking on the water, nobody took it in stride. They panicked and thought they saw a ghost.

If you are a non-Christian and you withess a miracle, you probably blow it off--with at worst, \"Huh, I can't explain that.\" But even when a believer witnesses a miracle, at most they spend a day or so thinking, \"Wow, that was so cool! God is so powerful!\" And then life goes back to how it was. They either continue in faith--as they were before--or they don't. A month or two later, it becomes very easy to say, \"You know, I don't really know what happened there. I can't explain that. I'll just ignore it.\"

Let me put it another way. You've all argued with people on the internet. You know how stubborn they can be. You can show them proof--real, honest, bona fide proof that they themselves cannot deny! And they'll get real quiet for the rest of the thread. And then they'll make up some lame excuse to brush it off or maybe just quietly forget about it. And where are they in a week? Right back where they started. Not a scratch.

People believe what they want to believe.

Miracles don't help any more than facts do. In fact, they help a good deal less--facts are harder to deny.

Faith is acknowledging and remembering.

=======

As for Mother Theresa's emptiness, the epitome of faith is to continue remembering without present evidence. God entices us to walk with the candy and unspeakable joy that is his presence, but this is only the beginning. We learn to walk on our own--and show his true mark on our character--in his absence. I envy her trials.

But as for doubting the presence of God, I can empathize--the way I might empathize with the ancients who believed the sun was a lamp pulled by a flying chariot. It's reasonable from their point of view--of course, they've never been to space. And you haven't been to my church or lived my life.

From my perspective, the presence of God is indisputable. The experience is common--virtually universal--in the church. Across denominations and cultures, across maturities and moral backgrounds. 80 year old grandmas, brilliant engineers, and unconventional, skeptical hip hop artists describe the exact same thing. Indeed, its absence for one saint only highlights its reality: she knew what she was looking for, and she knew it was missing.

thank you for a very well done post Drakona!

And lo' and behold, for this topic has, like many before it, has fully transformed into a religious debate!
Look, it's been done countless times before: you can't have a debate about if gods exist or not. There's not a single shred of proper evidence to suggest that he does exist, and there's not a single shred of proper evidence to suggest that he does. It's all based on what you, and you alone, believe!

Good to hear from you, Drakona!

Drakona wrote:...here's my point: Whether or not you believe what I see are miracles, I believe I see miracles. Constantly. All the time. And you know what? I periodically struggle with belief anyways!

It's interesting... my experience as a Christian is actually somewhat different; I don't normally see the sort of miracles where something happens completely outside physical explanation.

Maybe it's because I grew up in a church which was overly focused on spiritual "experience", I'm not sure. Seemingly everyone had stories of what they saw as super-natural events. But I still remember as a younger person, realizing that in the majority of those stories, the miracle wasn't something unexplainable... the miracle was that someone acted in a way that went against the norm and followed the example of Christ. (E.g. It wasn't the coincidence that a church member received some assistance on the exact day they needed it; the miracle was that another person recognized the need, and took their own time/money/skills to fill it.)

Whatever the reason I don't normally see "beyond explanation" events very often, it's no longer something I see as a blow to my faith. I still have times of doubt; during my college years I probably questioned everything about my faith at one point or another. As Drakona said, faith is about acknowledging and remembering. But for me it's not remembering the super-natural things I've seen or experienced; it's remembering the way God has interacted in my life through people.

Back to Mother Teresa, I agree:

Drakona wrote:We learn to walk on our own--and show his true mark on our character--in his absence.

That's what makes this aspect of Teresa's character so amazing... that despite her darkness and doubts and feeling of isolation, she was able to hold her faith and do as much as she did.

meh... i thought i proved there was no god a year ago on this forum. Oh well...

TIGERassault wrote:And lo' and behold, for this topic has, like many before it, has fully transformed into a religious debate!
Look, it's been done countless times before: you can't have a debate about if gods exist or not. There's not a single shred of proper evidence to suggest that he does exist, and there's not a single shred of proper evidence to suggest that he does. It's all based on what you, and you alone, believe!

uh Tiger, this was about religion to begin with. It's more on course than most have been.

drak, well said. it's noted that every saint that was canonized or at least recognized (as in the case of St. Patrick who was neither Irish or catholic, or canonized) have some major struggle in their lives. Most of the time is a physical ailment, but in the case of Teresa, it was an inner turmoil. Tozar writes about this very thing a number of times.

Great and complete post Drak. thanks.

Either *everything* is a miracle, or nothing is. There no more miracle in childbirth than eating food and going to the bathroom.

Praise God that little Amy was cured of her disease, and praise God that 10,000 people starved to death a few thousand miles away. Praise Jesus your house was spared in the fire that ravaged the town, so praise Jesus the other 29 burned, right?

Miracles everywhere. Or maybe, only the ones you want to see.

When a Christian begins a sentence with \"God told me to . . . \" they follow it either with something absurdly stupid or exactly, eerily, right.

50-50 seems a pretty abysmal success rate for Mr. All-Powerful.

Your Pastor wanted Warhammers and got some. And last Christmas, 5000 kids prayed for a bike and didn't get one. Hmm...not a good ratio.

My ex is a sweet girl who has cystinosis (extremely rare form of Cystic Fibrosis I think). She will die before 35. She will go blind first because the crystals in her eyes, which are very painful, will solidify her cornea. She has about 40% of her vision left at 26yo. Her muscles will atrophy to the point where she will be bedridden long before she dies. She has had both kidneys removed at the age of 8, stayed on dialisys for 4 years straight, every day hooked up to a machine for 11 hours. Finally got a kidney donated. Doctors said she'd have been dead by the end of the year (can't stay on dialisys that long). She is kept on immunosuppressants so she doesn't reject it, so a mild sinus cold gives her bronchitis of some sort and it takes 4 months to clear up. She takes 10 pills a day and has to inject insulin twice a day because she has diabetes because the chemicals she takes killed her pancreas. Her spleen is permanently swollen because her blood cells are being mangled by the cystine crystals, and become trapped by the spleen to filter them out. She's had 4 transfusions. She can no longer run because she lacks the energy. She could when I met her 3 years ago. Her face is swollen like Gary Coleman, and she is almost the same size. She had growth hormone shots when she was young so she could just make it to 5ft tall. Her father left her when she was 6 and took all her toys to give to the girls of the new woman she married. Her mother is a pathological liar and the perpetual victim of everything, and treats her like garbage. The mind-game stories are horrendous. Yet she still loves her mother and wishes she could have her as a mother, and tries, and fails every week. She believes in God.

God skipped over my ex's house to give your Pastor some plastic action figures, and you actually call that a miracle.

From my perspective, the presence of God is indisputable. The experience is common--virtually universal--in the church. Across denominations and cultures, across maturities and moral backgrounds. 80 year old grandmas, brilliant engineers, and unconventional, skeptical hip hop artists describe the exact same thing. Indeed, its absence for one saint only highlights its reality: she knew what she was looking for, and she knew it was missing.

When we are born, we instinctively have a place in our brains for an \"all-knowing, all-loving being\". When we are young this being is called a parent, and children naturally and instinctively bond to their parents. What if a large number of people never outgrow this phase, and need to fill this place in their brains with something once they have left their real parents and moved on? In other words, what if this place in the brain remains into adulthood for many people, long after it has served its need, and people feel lonely unless they fill this place with something? Having an \"all-knowing, all-loving\" invisible friend would be an obvious thing to fill it with. They've been told that there is one to fill it their entire lives by priests and parents. They've all filled their hole with what they were told at 2 years old and up. God being god, should have a hole the he fills, and everyone should know what it feels like. Everyone. Let those that do dismiss it, but it would be there. For Mr. All-powerful, it should be there, and with ease. Mother Teresa should have never had to doubt it.

But the thing is, this sort of thing is commonplace in the church

Then it should be commonplace everywhere. It's not. It sounds more like selective memory and ambiguity. It's an effect of being in a church to start talking about everyone's little miracles. Funny how when I'm at a baseball game, I remember all kinds of game-related things from back in Little League even. What about keeping up with the Jones's? Highly probably a little embellishment here, a little exaggeration there, and 10 years later, you have a miracle story. Human nature. Who tells a story the dull way it really happened?

You can show them proof--real, honest, bona fide proof that they themselves cannot deny!

No one on this board has ever shown bona-fide proof. Unsurprisingly, no one can. God removing your pimple before the big date is not proof. The stain coming out of your laundry after you prayed is not proof. There are a thousand ways proof could be shown, but it won't happen. It will always be ambiguous, and it will always be a 50-50 rate. You show me a few people with amputated limbs that grow back and I'll meet you at church!

I started reading the book about Mother Teresa and already I feel bad for her.

Drakona wrote:From my perspective, the presence of God is indisputable.

From my perspective and Mother Teresa's its not. So which one of us is correct?

Drakona wrote: But here's my point: Whether or not you believe what I see are miracles, I believe I see miracles. Constantly. All the time. And you know what? I periodically struggle with belief anyways!

I can't be as nice as Testi or Foil... forgive me.

To believe what you see as miracles that you directly attribute to God makes you one of three things. A liar, privileged, or religously delusional and I do not believe your a liar. So, do I think that a God has allowed you and your husband special privilges that he hasn't given to me, my dad, my priest, Mother Teresa, and everyone else I know? No, I do not so that leaves the latter. Your lucky in a way, you overcame a personal barrier and taken it to be the truth which gives you the comfort that I don't see from the people struggling in church.

Oh, and do you really think that the absence that Mother Teresa felt for her entire adult life is evidence that God exists?

This is why I get so defensive about keeping religious delusions out of school where kids need to learn something that will benefit them.

Bettina

Testiculese wrote:

When a Christian begins a sentence with "God told me to . . . " they follow it either with something absurdly stupid or exactly, eerily, right.

50-50 seems a pretty abysmal success rate for Mr. All-Powerful.

That's because people make mistakes. I've seen more than a few times when someone said they heard something from God and thought "... nope. You didn't, it's your own imagination."

P.S. Bettina - "learn something that will benefit them" doesn't hold any water, because for it to be true you have to assume that they aren't Christians to start with.

Why? Because from a Christian perspective, religious education DOES benefit them - possibly more than anything else! You may scoff, but that argument boils down to telling them "you're wrong because you're wrong".