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HDTV rant

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:45 pm
by Tunnelcat
Comcast just added a few more HDTV channels to the lineup, and for the most part, it's great!

However, will somebody tell these network idiots that stretching a 3 X 4 picture does not make it HD! I'm getting tired of seeing two common forms of stretching, panoramic and linear, to compensate for the 16 X 9 aspect ratio of the new HD TV's. It looks creepy!

They're just doing it to cater to the stupid people that don't like to see the horizontal black bars that result from a 3 X 4 picture being displayed on a high def set.

They should just broadcast the ORIGINAL aspect ratio and let us decide whether we want to change it ourselves to fit the screen. Many new TV's have the option to change or stretch the picture size. But when they broadcast it in a stretched form, you can't alter it back! :x

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:46 pm
by TIGERassault
...are you trying to say 'widescreen'?

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:07 pm
by Foil
Widescreen TV = 16:9 ratio.

I completely agree. I hate stretched images, too (panoramic stretching is the worst). I don't have a widescreen at the moment, but I certainly would rather have the choice to see the original 4:3 with the black bars than be forced to see the stretched version.

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:11 pm
by CDN_Merlin
I have a 4:3 HDTV and I'm lucky my provider doesn't send it stretched.

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:15 pm
by WarAdvocat
a 4:3 HDTV? What resolutions does it support? 480P and 1024 x 768?

heh

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:33 pm
by CDN_Merlin
1080i baby. :D Hockey has never looked so good. I regularly switch between HD and non HD game to remind myself how good HD is.

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:04 pm
by Top Wop
PCI TV-Tuner card FTW!!!

:D

Re:

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:08 pm
by MD-2389
WarAdvocat wrote:a 4:3 HDTV? What resolutions does it support? 480P and 1024 x 768?

heh
No its not. True HD is only in 16:9. (1920x1080)

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:34 pm
by Firewheel
HDTV seems nice, but not worth (to me) the price you have to pay for fancy service. Now, if they added Space Shower TV and Viewsic, I might change my mind...

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:49 pm
by CDN_Merlin
I pay $25 a month for about 25 channels of HD.

Re:

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:03 am
by Immortal Lobster
CDN_Merlin wrote:I have a 4:3 HDTV and I'm lucky my provider doesn't send it stretched.
satellite Im guessing? because every cable HD Ive ever seen is a joke.

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:30 am
by CDN_Merlin
pure cable
Sat here sucks.

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:33 am
by fliptw
no setting on the cable box that handles this?

Canadian Telecoms infrastructure is much better maintained than in the US.

Satellite TV in Canada blows.

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:33 am
by Genghis
My brother-in-law's satellite HDTV signal is crap. My cable signal is great...depending on the channel. It all depends on where you live, who your provider is, and how good the broadcaster's signal is.

I don't pay any extra for my HDTV channels. The main 4 networks look good, Discovery HD looks awesome, but PBS looks like crap.

Oh...and plasma ftw!!!!11

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:40 am
by CDN_Merlin
I can't wait for my provider to show all channels in HD. Honestly, everyone should start filming in HD.

Re:

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:44 am
by DCrazy
CDN_Merlin wrote:I can't wait for my provider to show all channels in HD. Honestly, everyone should start filming in HD.
Speaking from experience (honestly), upgrading to HD isn't just a matter of shooting in HD. It means you have to upgrade EVERYTHING, from your cameras to your editing environment to your entire control room (switches, DAs, storage capacity, everything) to your transmission. It's not exactly a cheap endeavor.

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:00 am
by CDN_Merlin
I know it's not cheap, but it's getting cheaper by the year. Any major tv station should be able to afford this.

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:14 am
by WarAdvocat
So Merlin... your 4:3 HDTV... you get black bars on top and bottom when watching HD programming?

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:35 am
by CDN_Merlin
Some channels I do. Actually to think of it now, when I watch hockey, the bottom right corner has HD on it but it goes off the screen a bit. So I guess they do stretch it. I don't mind watching tv with the black bars because I know I see more than if they crop it.

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:37 pm
by Tunnelcat
Hmmm, there seems to be some confusion here about the definition of HDTV.

Here's a long primer on American broadcast digital TV, which includes HDTV, and digital cable QAM. Perhaps others can provide the European and Asian standards.

The two standard over-the-air broadcast high definition TV (HDTV) picture formats are all required to be 16 units wide by 9 units high (16:9) instead of 4 units high by 3 units wide (4:3) as in standard definition TV (SDTV):

1.) A 720p picture is up to 1280 pixels wide by a minimum of 720 pixels high at 60 frames per second.

2.) A 1080i picture is up to 1920 pixels wide by a minimum of 1080 pixels high with 30 frames of 540 pixels by 1920 pixels every second, which are interlaced with the other 540 pixels by 1920 pixels in alternating frames.

NOTE: The HDTV standard has no requirement for how many pixels wide because the standard was set when CRT displays were still around and they only specified the number of vertical lines to be 720 or 1080. For example, many plasma HDTV sets only display 1024 pixels across by 720 pixels high. To maintain the 16:9 aspect ratio the 1024 pixels are spaced physically farther apart than the 720 vertical pixels. The TV set will take the 1280 or 1920 pixels that were broadcast and scale them to fit on the 1024 pixels on the display. Likewise, an LCD panel with only 1280 by 720 pixels must scale down a 1080i picture to fit. Properly done scaling will not stretch or squeeze the picture.

NOTE: Some HDTV sets have a 4:3 display, but they can legally display an HDTV picture provided they have at least 720 vertical lines or pixels. Sony sold a 4:3 CRT that would display 720 lines with black bars above and below to form a 16:9 HDTV picture.

The American broadcast networks ABC and FOX along with the cable/satellite channel ESPN use 720p HDTV because it works better with fast moving sports action. 720p requires less digital compression than 1080i to fit in the standard TV channel, which is limited to 20 megabits per second transfer rate. (The actual rate is 19-point something Mbps, but 20 Mbps is close enough for this discussion.)

The American broadcast networks CBS and NBC use 1080i. A 1080i picture requires more digital compression than 720p to fit into a standard 20 megabits per second TV channel because it has more pixel data.

However, most TV stations are squeezing more than one channel into their 20 Mbps TV channel. They are compressing the HDTV picture down to about 10 Mbps so that they can fit in a couple of extra standard definition channels. On most HDTV sets these extra channels show up as, for example, 16.1, 16.2, 16.3, etc. (some sets display a hyphen 16-2 instead of a dot) These are virtual channel numbers and not the actual physical broadcast channel number.

To make the switch to digital TV easier, the American FCC is requiring TV stations to broadcast a virtual channel number that is identical to their old analog channel number. HDTV sets built before 2003 are often not able to display or use virtual channel numbers. In the previous example, \"16\" is the current analog TV channel number for a TV station in my area. Several years ago, the FCC gave them the UHF physical channel 17 to broadcast the digital HDTV picture until 2009 when channel 16 will be turned off. I bet they will keep the virtual channel number 16.1 so that people can find channel \"16\" when analog broadcasts stop.

NOTE: Comcast cable is mapping all of these virtual channel numbers to a different cable channel on the DVR cable boxes. Channel 16.1 is mapped to channel 703 and 16.2 is mapped to channel 11 on my Comcast DVR, which probably confuses people further. However, if you use an unscrambled cable QAM tuner the 16.1 and 16.2 display correctly, at least with my Sony TV and Comcast cable setup. Your mileage may differ because the cable company can set virtual channel numbers to any number. For example, channel 10.2 is mapped to QAM channel 102.4031 on my Sony set.

It took me forever to figure QAM out because the cable company would not tell me what is the QAM number mapping - they only wanted to sell me an extra cable box for $6 a month to watch the free unscrambled QAM cable channels! Note that QAM is the digital format used by cable and it is different than the over-the-air digital broadcast standard. Unless the HDTV set has a QAM tuner, it will not be able to tune digital cable channels. Scrambled QAM cable channels require a cable card plugged in your TV set or a cable box to watch. This summer the FCC started requiring Comcast to support the cable card, but few TV sets support CableCard yet. But I dare you to call Comcast and try to get them to admit they support such a thing.

The American HDTV standard also specifies several 4:3 standard definition TV formats that can be broadcast as secondary channels. All of them are 480 lines or pixels high by a variable number of pixels wide. HDTV sets display them by scaling the picture to fit the display. To avoid stretching the picture, a 480p signal would be scaled up to either 960 by 720 pixels or 1440 by 1080 pixels depending on the display size. Black bars (on some sets white or gray) would appear to the left and right of the picture on a 16:9 display.

A Comcast cable engineer insisted to me that the cable company is merely passing on the same bit rate as broadcast by the over-the-air stations, however, the satellite companies are often compressing the HDTV signals even more so they can fit more channels on the satellite. I believe this based on watching both over-the-air vs. cable and satellite, but you can tell many of the cable TV HD channels are more compressed than the over-the-air channels because the picture will break up into big pixels whenever something moves across the screen. Fire and moving water seem to be affected by compression the most.

The Comcast ESPN and other 720p sports cable channels look very lightly compressed because the picture is perfect and motion artifacts don't show up, even during fast action.

Comcast appears to be doing more compression on cable channels such as A&E, HGTV, USA, TNT, etc. Many of these channels are broadcasting 4:3 aspect ratio shows by stretching them to fit the 16:9 picture and then calling them HD when they are not high definition! TNT has shown movies this way that I saw shown correctly in HD on other cable movie channels. Some are stretching the sides of the picture more than the center so that faces in the center look normal, but not at the edges. (Some sets call this non-linear stretching \"panoramic\") The problem is that no TV I am aware can undo a picture that was broadcast with panoramic stretch. My set can shrink a linearly stretched picture, but not undo a non-linearly stretched picture.

Another problem is the default Comcast DVR setup stretches all pictures to fit 16:9 unless you change it in the secret boot up screen used by the cable techs. An engineer told me they did this because the old plasma TV sets would suffer burn-in damage with letterboxed pictures. They idiot proofed it, but failed to provide the user with a simple way to change it. If you have an LCD of any age or a newer plasma set, burn-in is not an issue. My new Sony LCD HDTV also insisted on stretching the picture by default, but this was easy to change in the menus. I guess dumb people are upset by the black bars and don't understand picture aspect ratio, which generates too many support calls for these guys.

The American FCC forbids broadcasting 1080p over the air, but DVD players, etc. can output 1080p to TV's that can handle it (note 1080p has the same 1920 by 1080 resolution) The FCC forbids 1080p because when the standard was set it was believed that it would require too much digital compression to broadcast the double amount of data that 1080p requires. Few people can see the difference between 1080i and 1080p in a properly coded TV signal, except in very special cases such as when using still frame modes.

WHEW! No wonder people are confused.

:lol:

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:56 pm
by captain_twinkie
LONG LIVE VHS! LOL

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:28 pm
by Tunnelcat
VHS is dead too. Now there's the DVD war going on (Blue Ray vs. HD), and it's Sony causing the problem again! They don't want to lose again, remember Betamax.

In the U.S., analog will be dead by 2009, so you'll either have to become a Luddite or figure out digital TV.

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:34 pm
by Immortal Lobster
Blu-Ray will win the DVD format, I have no doubts there.

and yeah, in 2009, Digital will become the standard, so youll need conversion boxes for analog TVs, this is really gonna tick us college students off.

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:42 pm
by WillyP
Beta! LaserDisk! 8-track! ftw: woot!

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:19 pm
by Tunnelcat
For all those people who can't or don't want to cough up for a new TV, there's a coupon you can get from the U.S. government for $40 off of the price a digital converter box if you need to buy one when analog disappears in 2009. Check it out here:

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/index.html

Since I've been using a DVR to record TV shows, even the High Def ones, my VCR hasn't been used for a year!

It's a Comcast Motorola unit and it's still a little buggy to use, they keep hacking the software to get the schedule to work and display properly. Sometimes it will lock up for several seconds when pushing buttons on the remote.

It's great to be able to back up live TV if you miss something. The DVR is constantly recording two channels at once when it's turned on and has a large buffer that will allow you to go backwards for almost an hour of recorded programming. HD programs have less of a buffer since there is a lot more data to record.

I've read better reports about the TiVo DVR unit and I may give the Motorola unit back to Comcast and get a TiVo if Comcast can't get the bugs worked out. But a DVR is the best way to record TV! The only downside is that you can't keep a copy of a recorded show on any media like a tape.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:04 am
by Capm
Wow tunnelcat, there is alot of misconceptions in your two posts, I'll have to pick them apart later. Although I can't say I'm entirely suprised at some of it being a Comcast customer, and altho I really dislike Comcast, not all of these things they have control over.

For the moment, I will tell you this, most digital boxes for cable co's I've seen are sluggish and buggy in comparison to dish's boxes (which aren't that great either, but hey) and I think thats because the digital box is Dish's primary delivery platform and they've spent more time refining 1 type of software to work on specific equipment, where in the cable industry you have 5 or six different brands (major brands anyway) and each of them has their own software and none of them are nearly as mature as dish's. While I think this will eventually work itself out, you cannot just go out and get your own digital box unless it and your cable co support the cable cards which are very problematic themselves (I've heard nothing good said about the cable cards out there).

And alot of times the cable co's have little choice in their brand selection, alot of times thats determined by what their backend is compatible with, which is usually just, one brand. Anyway, the wife is stealing the pc, I'll continue later

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:12 am
by WarAdvocat
I'm still laughing at the 4:3 \"HDTV\". Either some salesman suckered you or it's like 10 years old.

Re:

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:16 am
by CDN_Merlin
WarAdvocat wrote:I'm still laughing at the 4:3 "HDTV". Either some salesman suckered you or it's like 10 years old.
My TV is like 4 yeas old. It will display HDTV in widescreen format with bars on top and bottom. It's a 27" Samsung. Not some 40 inch widescreen format. I bought it before Widescreen was the norm.

My next TV will be 50" Widescreen or better. At least I can watch HDTV unlike some people.

Re:

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:31 am
by DCrazy
WarAdvocat wrote:I'm still laughing at the 4:3 "HDTV". Either some salesman suckered you or it's like 10 years old.
HDTV maintains progressive and interlaced standards in both aspect ratios. There was a nifty chart somewhere (Wikipedia?) that showed the three major video aspect ratios (NTSC, VGA, and Widescreen) in increasing dimensions.