Germany and Scientology

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:10 pm

Just curious and would like to hear opinions from any of our German posters.

What, who and why all the controversy surrounding Scientology? I'd like to hear the opinions and reasoning surrounding this in your country. We don't get much background information here in the U.S.

roid · Post by **roid** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:22 pm

why Germany?
i have some things to say about Scientology, but i'll wait coz i'm not German

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:33 pm

I haven't heard much about this... what's the controversy (i.e. is it different than the nature of the controversy over here in the 'States)?

ccb056 · Post by **ccb056** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:56 pm

I always find it interesting to read other countries' constitutions:

German Basic Law (English Translation)

Article 2
[Personal freedoms]
(1) Every person shall have the right to free development of his personality
insofar as he does not violate the rights of others or offend against the constitutional
order or the moral law.
(2) Every person shall have the right to life and physical integrity. Freedom
of the person shall be inviolable. These rights may be interfered with
only pursuant to a law.

Article 4
[Freedom of faith, conscience, and creed]
(1) Freedom of faith and of conscience, and freedom to profess a religious
or philosophical creed, shall be inviolable.
(2) The undisturbed practice of religion shall be guaranteed.
(3) No person shall be compelled against his conscience to render military
service involving the use of arms. Details shall be regulated by a federal
law.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:21 am

Tunnelcat-Try
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology
read the sections on \"Scientology as a state-recognized religion\" and \"Scientology as a cult\"

I'm not a German but I lost a brother to Scientology for a decade.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:21 am

Germany is considering a ban of Scientology for being \"unconstitutional\".

ccb056 · Post by **ccb056** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:23 am

banning scientology would be unconstitutional

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:29 am

ccb056 wrote:banning scientology would be unconstitutional

Whose constitution ?

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:49 am

Sometimes parts of the constitution can be in conflict. If a religion teaches various things that contradict the constitution - say, for the sake of argument, that it's okay to keep people as slaves - then it may be acceptable to ban that religion, even if the constitution normally says it isn't.

Or at the very least, certain practices of that religion.

In the case of Scientology, they say its goals are apparently against the German constitution... so it does make sense to me.

I'm not sure what the goals they speak of are though. About the only thing I know about Scientology, really, is that it's the Esperanto of world religions, and Tom Cruise is buying.

ccb056 · Post by **ccb056** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:44 am

Grendel wrote:
ccb056 wrote:banning scientology would be unconstitutional
Whose constitution ?

The german one of course, earlier in the thread I even posted the specific articles dealing with this.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:47 pm

I was hoping to get a response from someone in Germany to get all the nuances concerning the attempt to ban Scientology and what political party was behind the action. I'll check out the links.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:25 pm

ccb056 wrote:
Grendel wrote:
ccb056 wrote:banning scientology would be unconstitutional
Whose constitution ?
The german one of course, earlier in the thread I even posted the specific articles dealing with this.

Nope. Scientology is not regarded as a religion in germany.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:36 pm

Or France for that matter.

roid · Post by **roid** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:36 pm

\"Scientology as a state-recognized religion\" and \"Scientology as a cult\"

what i wanted to say was concerning this (above).

The Church of Scientology was having a war with some Cult-awareness Organisation. The church eventually used their (xbawks hueg!) money to buy up all of the assets of the Cult-Awareness organisation and they now run it. Can you believe that? The Church of Scientology NOW RUNS a prominent Cult-Awareness Organisation. Obviously the organisation no longer issues bulletins warning about the dangers of the Scientology Cult.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:34 pm

Like the fox guarding the hen house. Hee hee!

I know that there was a big stink in Germany when Tom Cruise went over to film a movie there. It seems that they don't think very much of Scientology. If they succeed in banning it as a cult, I wonder what will happen.

The South Park cartoon parodied Scientology in the episode \"Trapped in the Closet\" and Issac Hayes (the Chef character) and Tom Cruise were able to pressure Viacom to cancel any reruns. No sense of humor here.

Here's the video of 'Trapped in the Closet', once you get past the ad.

http://southpark.comedycentral.com/vide ... eId=103804

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:38 pm

IIRC, they lampooned that on the Emmy's that year.

Munk · Post by **Munk** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:01 pm

Oh, I've just seen this article tonight.

The argument is, that the goals of Scientology are in contradiction to the rights stated in the german constitution.

Any organisations which aims against the constitution is considered illegal (for obvious reasons). It does not depend on that the organisation is a Church, political party, or even personal circles.

Of course you can have any religion you believe in, join any organisation you like, do whatever you want to do. You \"just\" have to respect the constitution.

And I'm sure thats the very same in any other country.

I do not know Scientology, their rules and goals. I cannot tell you which goals are in contradiction to the constitution. It might be something about supressing the personal individuality or something. Honestly I don't know.

About Tom Cruise: I cannot follow the german side of the discussion. This man is an actor, so if he wants to act on films he should act on films as any otherone should do what they want to do.
If someone does not like Tom Cruise, he just should not buy his tickets.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:09 pm

Not the same here...

edit: \"And I'm sure thats the very same in any other country.\"

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:04 pm

Obviously Germany thinks that Scientology doesn't mesh with their Constitution and obviously considers it a threat.

I keep reading little snippets here and there about the political power that Scientology is wielding in this country and wonder why most mainstream Christian Churches aren't raising more concerns about what is essentially a modern cult gaining access to the political machine.

I mean, look at all the griping here about abortion, gay marriage, illegal immigration, taxes, etc. and very little noise (except for Bill O'Riley on Fox, but he doesn't count) about a growing influential cult potentially making social policy.

zico · Post by **zico** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:58 pm

\"About Tom Cruise: I cannot follow the german side of the discussion. This man is an actor, so if he wants to act on films he should act on films as any otherone should do what they want to do.
If someone does not like Tom Cruise, he just should not buy his tickets.\"

This is what I - as german - think about that as well. On the other side I think it's right Scientology isn't accepted as religion. Just my opinion - that's the good thing: I have my own.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:41 pm

Would I rather have Scientologists or Christians in the political machine...hmm...hard decision.

Actually, since both use a cross, my answer is neither.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:53 pm

There are several reasons you don't get mainstream media complaining about Scientology one is that they are smart enough to keep a low profile. They really only get involved with politics if there is a chance it will interfere with their operation. As long as it doesn't stop their recruiting or change their tax status they stay away. Second is if you are going to say anything against them you had better be ready to defend yourself in court, in front of your boss when the raft of complaints comes flooding in, to your family and friends when rumours start to circulate about you and in every way. Scientology will defend itself in any way possible with any method possible. The moral code laid out by L. Ron is clear. If it protects your survival it is moral. Period. If you expose yourself to them as a critic they will come at you and do anything they can to discredit you.
Case in point from the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6650545.stm

roid · Post by **roid** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:09 pm

Testi i'm also curious what Scientology has that other religions don't - that it would attract scorn from the German constitution.

What defines a Cult over a Religion to me is that a Cult has a large amount of social control over it's members - and since religions do the same there isn't really any solid line between the 2. One just does it more.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:42 pm

roid wrote:Testi i'm also curious what Scientology has that other religions don't - that it would attract scorn from the German constitution.

What defines a Cult over a Religion to me is that a Cult has a large amount of social control over it's members - and since religions do the same there isn't really any solid line between the 2. One just does it more.

As far as I know, the Catholic church hasn't been accused of murdering non-conforming members within the past couple hundred years.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:31 pm

Roid- There is an enormous amount of information on Scientology available on the net both pro and con. The Wikipedia article I linked earlier is fairly balanced. (Note that editing of the article had to be locked to stop \"vandalism\")
Some countries feel that Scientology does not involve religious beliefs at all and is simply a money making enterprise that uses mind control techniques and blackmail to extract funds from the members. Other countries don't see any difference between Scientology and any other organized religion.
Suffice it to say that there are real parallels between the Unification Church (Moonies) and Scientology.

roid · Post by **roid** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:31 pm

DCrazy what are you talking about? What has Scientology got to do with murders over the past 200 years, and who mentioned the Catholic Chruch?

-------------

Ford Prefect, i just now had a peek at the wiki entry, specificly the controversy and critisism. And i didn't see anything that other religions don't already do.

Scientology's \"disconnection\" policy resembles almost perfectly the Jehovah's Witnesses apostate policy.

Lisa McPherson died in less tragic circumstances than many people who still die during exorcism rituals in other religions. Anti-intelectualism is rife in the halls of religion. I often meet ppl seemingly irrespective of religion (although - i have my suspicions) who think that psychiatry is a load of bunk, this is nothing amazing.

Many religious people are so closeminded that they can't understand that other people feel the same way about their respective religions and they feel about their own. They believe in the singular nature of truth contained by their and ONLY their religion, so passionately, that they no longer refer to it in relative terms like \"MY religion\" but rather in absolute terms like \"THE religion\" - and even dropping the notion that it is a religion at all - as afterall all other religions are bogus, so their religion becomes simply \"THE TRUTH\". They no longer think in relative terms that \"everyone is unique, and i'm just another one\" - but in black and white terms of \"US and THEM: everyone else\".

So yet another religion who refuses to catagorise itself as a religion but as something truly unique - some kindof higher ultimate truth - is no surprise.

Religions have tax free status. They ask for contributions, even spiritually blackmail their members into donating money (\"don't you love God's Church?\" etcetc).

I talk to a Moony online, i lost contact with him for a year recently as he went off on an unpaid religious trip, he personally justifys it as a \"character building exercise\". On this trip he was essentially a traveling salesman, his primary goal was to sell (non religious) things and make money for the church.

If ppl hate cults, then i hope they also hate religion. Coz there is no solid line between them, they are the same same same.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:09 pm

DCrazy wrote:As far as I know, the Catholic church hasn't been accused of murdering non-conforming members within the past couple hundred years.

You're stretching that a little. The Catholic Church leadership at the time was complicit in the deaths of millions of Jews during the Holocaust by their silence and inaction. In my opinion, their inaction makes them guilty by association. Dirty bit of history.

TIGERassault · Post by **TIGERassault** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:48 am

tunnelcat wrote:You're stretching that a little. The Catholic Church leadership at the time was complicit in the deaths of millions of Jews during the Holocaust by their silence and inaction. In my opinion, their inaction makes them guilty by association. Dirty bit of history.

O...kay. So you're blaming a peaceful religion for not waging a war against a multi-national force?

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:02 am

I've never heard of a peaceful religion.

TIGERassault · Post by **TIGERassault** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:45 pm

Testiculese wrote:I've never heard of a peaceful religion.

....
Fine. A religion that's trying to be peaceful.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:19 pm

Granted, the Catholic Church was not an army, but Pope Pius VII was uncharacteristically silent about fascist antisemitism that was coming out of the Italian Vichy government during the late 1930's.

Not that he could do anything about it at the time, there are rumors that the Church may have enabled the antisemitism in both Germany and Italy by not standing firmly and vocally against it. Silent lip service as it were. It's no different if you witness a murder and do nothing to help and even wink at the killer for a job well done.

Antisemitism was very pervasive in the Church leadership at the time, in the pre-Vatican II era. It still creeps out today. Just look at the propaganda of Mel Gibson (another crazy actor) and his father. They reject the Vatican II and Nostra AEtate and wish to return to the old ways. Is that a good thing?

roid · Post by **roid** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:45 pm

What does Scientology have to do with Catholism?

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:39 pm

I consider myself an agnostic and I'm of the opinion that ALL organized religions are cults. Even Christianity started out as a cult.

Catholicism, Mormonism, Evangelicalism, Hindu, Islam, etc. and even Scientology are just social constructs to get control over large groups of people and create the same mindset, morals, laws and beliefs that they think are correct for their followers. I'm not trying to offend anyone or belittle their beliefs, belonging to a religion can be positive and necessary part of a person's well being.

You don't have to belong to an organized religion to have some kind of faith. Mass group think is not required for a belief in a GOD. Obviously the German government doesn't like what they see in Scientology.

I was just curious if the German fear was being driven by a Church or Religion or had a more secular reason for the animosity toward Scientology.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:58 pm

What is a cult, then?

Referring to religions as \"social constructs\" for purposes of control smacks of conspiracy theory. Generally religions form from groups of people trying to make themselves stronger, and revolving around shared, deeply held beliefs; they can later be twisted for the use of social control (which has happened with most major religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam included; not sure about Hinduism though), but that's not their purpose.

DigiJo · Post by **DigiJo** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:54 am

for those of you able to read a bit of german, this is a link to an offical homepage of the \"bayern\" (1 state of germany) ministry of interior with some backgroung information about what and why they think there is something wrong with scientology. looks like they have them categorized as \"political and /or religios fanatism.

http://www.stmi.bayern.de/sicherheit/ve ... ail/05320/

there is a basic report from the bayern Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution in english, some informations about scientology in germany and how officials see it.

http://www.stmi.bayern.de/imperia/md/co ... o_engl.pdf

thats however only from 1 german federal state that is known for having some real hardliners in the goverment, ill have a look if i can find some official statements from the german goverment.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:15 pm

Sirius wrote:What is a cult, then?

Referring to religions as "social constructs" for purposes of control smacks of conspiracy theory. Generally religions form from groups of people trying to make themselves stronger, and revolving around shared, deeply held beliefs; they can later be twisted for the use of social control (which has happened with most major religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam included; not sure about Hinduism though), but that's not their purpose.

Granted, religions may not start out as controlling entities, but many become corrupt with power and abuse it, an all too human trait. The larger the group, the more likely power will corrupt them.

I'm not against faith and people coming together for a common belief. We are social and like to come together and our brains have the desire and need for religiosity.

It's when it's used to force social morals or beliefs on others that don't have the same ones that it becomes a problem. That's not conspiracy, just the scheme of human nature. If you're a Christian, would you want Scientology, for example, to enforce their ideals on your life?

The definition of a cult, according to the Webster's Dictionary has these to entries:

"A system of beliefs and rituals connected with the worship of a deity."

"A religion or minority religious group regarded as unorthodox or spurious."

TIGERassault · Post by **TIGERassault** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:25 am

tunnelcat wrote:"A system of beliefs and rituals connected with the worship of a deity."

And you don't think they're might be even a little thing wrong with a dictionary that essentially defines any religion as a cult?

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:37 am

tunnelcat wrote:Not that he could do anything about it at the time, there are rumors ...

So many errors, so little time ……………………

Let’s start with the geography,
The Vichy government was in France, not Italy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

You are apparently referring to Pius XII, not Pius VII,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes#20th_Century
Pius VII was Pope from 1800-1823

Furthermore, there are multiple links at this site which put the lie to the ‘Myth of “Hitler’s Pope”’.
Also see David Dalin’s book of the same title.

And finally, please explain the incoherent non sequitur you wrote relating the beliefs of Mel Gibson’s family with Church leadership.

oh, and there's even more here
http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/ ... query=nazi

roid · Post by **roid** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:28 pm

TIGERassault wrote:
tunnelcat wrote:"A system of beliefs and rituals connected with the worship of a deity."
And you don't think they're might be even a little thing wrong with a dictionary that essentially defines any religion as a cult?

"A system of beliefs and rituals connected with the worship of a deity."

"A religion or minority religious group regarded as unorthodox or spurious."

The first definition taken with the 2nd, is in line with my viewpoint of it - a "Cult" is a just a purgative (ie: negative) term for a religion.

The social control and secrecy of Cults is oft mirrored by mainstream religions - we just choose not to see it.

The paying $100,000 to know 'the truth' with Zenu and the volcanos etcetc is brilliant. It's more commonly understood thesedays that when you have invested so much of yourself in something, you are less likely to turn away from it.
ie: when people buy something expensive, they are less likely to acknowledge it's faults.

But to actually use money DIRECTLY as that personal investment in a religious belief, that's amazing. I never thought that would actually work. Perhaps it's because it's combined with the personal investment of time and energy into the religion - it's a more powerful incentive.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:13 pm

dissent wrote:
So many errors, so little time ……………………

Let’s start with the geography,
The Vichy government was in France, not Italy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

You are apparently referring to Pius XII, not Pius VII,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes#20th_Century
Pius VII was Pope from 1800-1823

Furthermore, there are multiple links at this site which put the lie to the ‘Myth of “Hitler’s Pope”’.
Also see David Dalin’s book of the same title.

And finally, please explain the incoherent non sequitur you wrote relating the beliefs of Mel Gibson’s family with Church leadership.

oh, and there's even more here
http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/ ... query=nazi

Your right, the Vichy Government was in France, an embarrassing lapse on my part. Mussolini was the dictator of Italy. There is still some murky history regarding the three Axis dictators and their relationship with the Catholic Church during the Holocaust. There is a lot of conflicting information out there. Historical details tend to get altered to protect powerful people. We may never really know.

I mistyped the VII for Pope Pius XII, sorry all for the slippery fingers and poor proofreading.

As for Mel Gibson, you may wish to read this to get a handle on his interpretation of what is a 'Catholic'. He doesn't seem to agree with modern Catholic thinking.

http://www.unomaha.edu/jrf/2004Symposium/Lawler.htm

The only reason I mentioned him was as a example of how a religion can be very fluid and constantly changing, and not always for a good reason. New religions (cults in my mind) start out this way, when one group doesn't agree with the other on certain doctrine. In this case, Gibson is a pre-Vatican II believer, especially his unrepentant father. Who are the 'true' Catholics in their minds. Will the 'old' split from the 'new'. and which one is the religion and which one is the cult?

The dictionary didn't quite get the definition of a cult correctly. A religion will often start out as cult, but given enough time and acceptance by society, it will be eventually be considered a religion.

Mormonism is a good example of a modern religion that technically started out as a cult. The Pagan Romans also considered Christianity as a dangerous cult in its beginning. Since one morphs into the other, at what point does the definition change? The line is blurred. Scientology is in the middle of that change, some think it's a cult, others believe it's a religion.

I'm going to quit commenting on this topic since it can be a very emotional argument. You know what they say, don't mix religion and politics. I originally was just curious about the German perspective on Scientology, since there are many German posters out there and a lack of information on the matter in the U.S.

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