Parent Question. (For the kids here, as well as moms n dads

[Flabby Chick]

We've just been set up with a program that logs on to the school network. It provides us with all the usual info that a school gives; events, holidays, projects ect ect, but it also gives us info on the child and how he/she behaves in class, homework received..and homework not completed. It gives us an almost real time update on everything that's going on with the kids at school, so i can check in the evening and dispense Daddy authority as i see fit.

Do you all reckon this is a good thing? I feel like i'm loosing the trust of my kid by checking up on her every night. Shouldn't i be trying to teach her the values of communication with me (knowing how hard that is for a teenager) rather than semi-spying on her.

Interested to hear your thoughts.


EDIT..i'm asking 'cause you guys in the States have probably had this system for ages. This is all new to me.

[Pandora]

I think it's stupid. I think it's great that school provides the kids with some freedom and even privacy, some playing field in which they can test out their own decisions and live with the consequences. Problem is, now that the system is here, its going to be hard to *not* use it. It means that you can't use it, even in a situation in which you mistrust your child, and you cannot even use it as a threat (\"you know I could check what you are doing\") --- otherwise the child's privacy is already gone.

[CDN_Merlin]

I don't have kids but here goes.

I think it's a great idea.
1)You can snoop without telling. Just to check. But don't do this daily. Like once a month to see how he/she is doing. Problem is kids will lie not to get punished so we sometimes have to check.

2)If you find they are slacking, just ask them how they are doing in school and if they require help. Don't mention you know. This way the trust is not broken. If they lie to you, then tell them that you received an eamil saying you aren't doing homework etc.

3)Easier to catch it now than later when they are more stubborn.

[Gooberman]

The painful truth is that since your daughter has a father that is willing to check, she probably doesn't need you to check.

And the parents who don't care enough to check, probably need to be checking.

I don't think checking is a violation of trust, I think it shows that you care.

[Testiculese]

There is nothing wrong with this. It's called being involved in your child's education. There's this thing called Parent-Teacher Conference in the US where every now and then during the year, the parents can have a one-on-one with the teacher and can find out exactly what their child is or isn't doing. There are also report cards. If your kid doesn't do homework the parent gets told anyway. This system doesn't change any of that, just makes it more interactive for the parent, and let's the parent do the parent job.

Children do not have any privacy, nor should they, as long as they are children. (Technically, at least.) If you think otherwise, ask any parent how often they knock on the kids door before opening it. Not too many. How many kids have locks on their door? The only privacy children should have is when viewed from outside the family.

When I was a kid, I never bothered to do homework. It was boring busywork that did nothing for me. I understood the lesson while I was at school. Unfortunately, the rest of the class didn't, so everyone got homework. My grades suffered because of this, and my dad instituted a system where at the end of each week, I had to get a piece of paper signed by each teacher that I did my homework, or I wasn't allowed out for the weekend. I was an honor student for the whole year.

With this system in place, kids that need to do homework might actually learn something and we'll have less of an overpopulation of McDonalds workers and Bush voters.

[Foil]

As a former teacher, I love the concept, as a resource for parents.

Realistically, though:
- The data is only going to be as good as what the teachers put in (and after a while, most teachers are not going to put in good information on a daily basis simply because of the enormous data-entry time required).
- If over-used as a 'spying' tool, it can turn into a hinderance to parent-kid communication.
- It's still not anywhere near as beneficial as the simple parent-teacher \"How's my kid doing?\" chat.

[Krom]

If you use it excessively and or as an excuse to not have to actually interact with your child it is wrong. If you use it in addition to staying in communication, you are watching over and watching out for your child like any parent should.

[Dakatsu]

Hell, in a 15yo 9th grader, and I use it more than my parents to see my current grade.

[TIGERassault]

Ehh... I'm gonna go with 'no'. For test results and behaviour, I'd say yes, but not for homework. Because, like me, there are numerous people who can get straight-As in some subjects without doing any homework whatsoever (and for those of you that think that'll only hinder me in the future, I only have 4 months left of school and you're wrong). Whether a student is doing homework or not should only be looked at if their results are dwindling.

Children do not have any privacy, nor should they, as long as they are children. (Technically, at least.)

Which, of course, drives them crazy! Because, in all fairness, they should have as much privacy as an adult.
However, the problem there isn't that children get watched over by their parents as much as they want, and get to give out about things they do wrong as much as they want, but that the adults themselves are excempt from things like that. Which is unfair, because the notion that adults are perfect people when it comes to bad habits and such is absolutely ridiculous!

[CUDA]

as the one on this forum with the most experience in raising kids, I think its great. never forget! you are the Parent and this is not a trust issue. I like to stick to the old Reagan Mantra \"Trust but Verify\" I trust my kids but they are also just that kids, and as we know \"Kids will be Kids\"

Flabby its called Good Parenting, don't feel guilty

[CUDA]

Children do not have any privacy, nor should they, as long as they are children. (Technically, at least.)

Which, of course, drives them crazy! Because, in all fairness, they should have as much privacy as an adult.

You couldnt be more wrong if you tried,
children lack common sense,
children lack experience
children lack knowledge
children lack will power (as do some adults)
children easily succum to peer pressure (as do some adults)

to leave a Minor un checked and to his own vices is a recipe for trouble. there are some issues of privacy that must be granted to a minor, but to say they should have all the privacy rights of adults is insane

[TIGERassault]

You couldnt be more wrong if you tried,
children lack common sense,
children lack experience
children lack knowledge
children lack will power (as do some adults)
children easily succum to peer pressure (as do some adults)

Yay for ridiculous stereotypes and possible prejudism, not to mention blatantly insulting the person you're talking to!

[Ford Prefect]

Yay for ridiculous stereotypes and possible prejudism, not to mention blatantly insulting the person you're talking to!

LOL
I don't know your age Tiger but if it is grade 12 you are completing you are likely around 17 and don't have a clue as to how your current habits and pastimes are going to affect your future. I have three kids 20,19 and 17. All of them of course know everything and I'm just an irrelevant 56 year old parent. This is especially true of my 17 year old son. But usually as children get older they discover how much smarter their parents get as they age. I think you might too.
BTW try \"prejudice\" next time. It's more impressive when you use correct English.

[d3jake]

If you use it excessively and or as an excuse to not have to actually interact with your child it is wrong. If you use it in addition to staying in communication, you are watching over and watching out for your child like any parent should.

Agreed. Using it is cool, over using it is uncool. And about this "privacy", sure its a nice concept, they can do what they want without "big brother" hanging around, so to speak, but that can only lead to kids not doing any of their work because they see no consequences in their actions. I used to not care about some of my schoolwork, back when I thought I was awesome for playing Descent 2 (sadly none of the other kids in my classes had heard of it ) My father got a report card from one of my teachers saying that I wasn't doing so well. And about the next day after a firm "talking to" he put a BIOS password on the computer so I couldn't play, needless to say that I got my grades back up to where they were supposed to be.

If kids aren't shown that their actions will bring on consequences, then they'll wonder why they've graduated from High School, but are still flipping burgers for a living. Though that isn't to say that that system isn't a substitute for a good ol' fashioned e-mail or call to the teacher(s) in question.

[CUDA]

You couldnt be more wrong if you tried,
children lack common sense,
children lack experience
children lack knowledge
children lack will power (as do some adults)
children easily succum to peer pressure (as do some adults)

Yay for ridiculous stereotypes and possible prejudism, not to mention blatantly insulting the person you're talking to!

LOL sterotypes and prejudism ROFL

First off My intent was not to insult as I do not know your age, and I dont care to be honest. I'm "assuming" by you taking it as an insult that you are a teenager and feel like you should have all those rights. again I dont care.
My analogy of teenagers or Children as the law characterizes them is spot on

it's FACT prove me wrong,
If you have more experience that me in this matter I am MORE than willing to listen and learn.

"When I was a child I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things."

In childhood the mind, pleased with every trifle and void of care, vacantly pursues its little pleasures, and, blessed with ignorance of the ills and disappointments of life, looks forward with sanguine hopes to fairy scenes of happiness; while the bright and tearless eye, resting on the outside of things, sees a paradise in every lawn and grove. A recollection of these childish delights is often cherished with rapture in future years,

The child has no high and manly aim, no cares for great and dignified things, little thought for his future well being either in this life or the life to come. His understanding is feeble, his knowledge is small, his pursuits and pleasures are useless to the world, his years are trifled away in pursuing airy visions, and he is a stranger to elevated and substantial happiness. He speaks as a child, prattling unconnectedly of his little concerns; he understands as a child, superficially and contractedly; he thinks as a child, incorrectly and inconsistently; but when he becomes a man he puts away childish things

[TIGERassault]

I don't know your age Tiger but if it is grade 12 you are completing you are likely around 17 and don't have a clue as to how your current habits and pastimes are going to affect your future.

Major habit: Spending too much time on the computer.
Major pastimes: Computer programming and video gaming.
Future outlook: Going to university to do a BSc in IT, or more specifically, computer programming. Planning to create a career in videogame programming.

Weeeeel, that was easy.
Unless you mean more specifically, such as one minor hobby gets me a job regarding that hobby. But I don't see how anyone of any age is supposed to be able to predict things like that.

But usually as children get older they discover how much smarter their parents get as they age. I think you might too.

Yes, I know that. However, to generalise that all children/adult differences are the same for everyone is what I'm complaining about.

BTW try "prejudice" next time. It's more impressive when you use correct English.

Whoops!

it's FACT prove me wrong,

Let's see...

I have enough common sense to know that children can't be generalised like this.
I have enough experience of children from being one myself.
I have enough knowledge to make this reply coherent and understandable.
I have enough will power to hold a 21-month long-distance relationship without breaking up or cheating.
And I don't succumb to will power as easily, as demonstrated by how I haven't done drugs, taken up smoking or had sex.

There ya go, 5 examples of how what you said is wrong. Now it's your turn to try to prove to me that all children are like what you said they are.
And no, personal experience and quotes from other people don't count as facts.

[CUDA]

Yes, I know that. However, to generalise that all children/adult differences are the same for everyone is what I'm complaining about.

Yes that might be true but you said

they should have as much privacy as an adult.

which implies that ALL children should have the same rights as adults. there are always exceptions to every rule

Let's see...

I have enough common sense to know that children can't be generalised like this.
I have enough experience of children from being one myself.
I have enough knowledge to make this reply coherent and understandable.
I have enough will power to hold a 21-month long-distance relationship without breaking up or cheating.
And I don't succumb to will power as easily, as demonstrated by how I haven't done drugs, taken up smoking or had sex.

There ya go, 5 examples of how what you said is wrong.

which when applied to you alone "MAYBE" but when applied to 99% of adolecents it doesnt, so you have not proven me wrong, your taking insult when none was given, which is another sign of adolecence

[WillyP]

Yep... Ford was right...


I think it's not how much you use it, but how you use it. We don't have that here, in Pembroke, NH, USA, and I have never heard of such a thing, but if we did, I'd sit down with my boys and discuss it with them. Be open and honest about it with them and they will see it as a tool, not spying or punishment. I say: Great Thing, this! (my boys are 10 and 8 yo.)

Yes, they should have privacy, but this is not about privacy, it's about school work. If your boss asked to see the results of your latest project at work, would you say 'Sorry, that's private!'?

[TIGERassault]

Yes, I know that. However, to generalise that all children/adult differences are the same for everyone is what I'm complaining about.

Yes that might be true but you said

they should have as much privacy as an adult.

which implies that ALL children should have the same rights as adults. there are always exceptions to every rule

That's why I didn't say all adults. I meant an adult that would be in a similar situation (note: situation, not state of mind.)

which when applied to you alone "MAYBE" but when applied to 99% of adolecents it doesnt, so you have not proven me wrong, your taking insult when none was given, which is another sign of adolecence

Except for the last two points, my points had, for lack of a better term, low standards. In other words, most children would say that they'd have the same opinions/positions. As for the last two, the fact that the smoking/drinking figures for people under 18 aren't 99% sorta says something.

[CUDA]

Yes, I know that. However, to generalise that all children/adult differences are the same for everyone is what I'm complaining about.

Yes that might be true but you said

they should have as much privacy as an adult.

which implies that ALL children should have the same rights as adults. there are always exceptions to every rule

That's why I didn't say all adults. I meant an adult that would be in a similar situation (note: situation, not state of mind.)

but that is NOT what you said

[CUDA]

I'm not trying to rag on you Tiger, but I have just a bit more experience than you, I have raised 8 children of my own and I have 4 children with spouses and now have 2 grandchildren. and just like you none of my kids got into questionable activities, but to have allowed them the freedom to get into those activities un-checked would have made me a Piss Poor Parent

[WillyP]

It really depends on your kids, too. With my oldest, we are happy if we don't get a call from the school about him, this year he has been doing well, but first and second grade were really rough, we got calls at least once a week.

[TIGERassault]

but to allow them the freedom to get into those activities would have made me a poor parent

...and do you think your children would want you to get into those 'activities' too? Because my point is that because of the privacy adults give themselves, they can do things like that and prevent their own family from finding out.

but that is NOT what you said

I did say 'an adult', which means that each child should have an individual adult with equal privacy rights.

[Alter-Fox]

Having a (possibly) flame war in the ethics forum is quite ironic.

[Bet51987]

...none of my kids got into questionable activities, but to have allowed them the freedom to get into those activities un-checked would have made me a Piss Poor Parent.

Exactly, and that goes for the rest of the similar good advice. Flabby Chick, I would go ahead and do it but I would sit down and talk it over with them first. My dad checked on me all the time and I liked it.

One warning.. Never use it as a weapon in an argument, and never nit pick the small stuff.

EDIT: Don't ever give a child absolute privacy. That's just blindly hoping they turn out ok.

Bee

[TechPro]

Wow! A new topic and it really sparked a lot of chatter. Cool.

My take on this: It's a good thing as long as the Parent carefully (and lovingly) balances it with the needs and characteristics of each child (for each child is different) AND if the Parent does it WITH the child. ... and NEVER too much.

That way, the all-important level of trust between Parent and Child is never violated, the Parent and Child get to examine what is reported together (further building levels of trust, communication, and love), problems get worked on together, and accomplishments celebrated together.

If the Parent and Child don't use it together, then it fails to reach it's full potential right from the start.

[Flabby Chick]

Good points guys. Even though i feel a tad uncomfortable, (only a tad mind) i'm going to use this new tool to help me get my teenager on the road to life. In the past couple of weeks of using it, after my daughters initial reticence, it seems as though we have opened another form of constructive communication...which is a good thing no?

I do believe a kid should have some sort of privacy (i remember the issue screwed up my relationship with my father, many years ago) but not in this case.

As a by the way, my wife loves this computor aid, and reckons there should be mini-cameras following where ever they go LOL.

Thanks for your imput guys.

[roid]

i'm not a parent, but ★■◆● it i'm still in this thread.
I hope to have kids, and their education is something i think about.

i see this education tracker thing as being involved in your child's education.

I'm one of those people that thinks back to old times when kid's education came from the parents directly - and i kinda plan on that, i love teaching. So i see school as merely a way of making the education i'm giving my kids even BETTER. It's an adjunct to the education i give personally. So this information is merely information i'd be recording myself if i were personally educating my child - which i hope i will be!

If i weren't active in my kids education - then i don't think i should spy on their stuff. It'd seem that i was just looking for something to punish them for, DO NOT WANT.
But if you are already active in your child's education...

Then again, if i were active in my child's education - i'm not sure how much i'd respect the official scores - i'd have a more personalised viewpoint of my child's progress anyway. So i don't know if i'd really care that much what grades they got in school. Fueled by my own schooling experience - i'd be only too ready to accept that my child would slip through the cracks of the system as i often did.

like Gooberman says:
The painful truth is that since your daughter has a father that is willing to check, she probably doesn't need you to check.

The only qualifyer i'd add to that is that some overbaring parents might just be perfectionists looking for something to fix, instead of taking an actual interest in the child's welfare. So as long as you avoid that you're sweet.

- It's still not anywhere near as beneficial as the simple parent-teacher "How's my kid doing?" chat.

Think of it like increasing efficiency of communication. Parent teacher chats would be so much more effective if they were all done via email. The teacher would not be reliant on the inconvinience of having to schedule a meeting time for the parents to come in. I think that while we have MASS education - with classrooms full of a LOT of kids, allowing the teachers and parents to communicate electronically like this would be advantageous. As a teacher i'm not going to individually ring every parent to tell them little tips on what the kid needs (and i don't have the time to formally meet all parents regularly), but i could EASILY put such little notes up on a website - like liner notes, it would take no time. It'd enable me to get messages out to parents a lot faster.



edit:
Don't try to micromanage your child's education unless you honestly have the time and patience to actually help them. Otherwise it could be a "i'm not good enough for daddy's attention" sore point for the kid.

If a kid is skipping some homework - but you don't have time to help her do it. I'd be careful making demands.

[d3jake]

Parent teacher chats would be so much more effective if they were all done via email.

Only if it isn't a part of the normal parent-teacher conferences. Nothing can substitute for a face to face chat. Clearly a teacher will have other things to do than talk to parents, and can't drop what they're doing just to talk, however important it may be.

[Duper]

Flabby, don't feel bad. It's only a tool to help keep up in a ever growing crazy world. It won't EVER replace one on one with your kids at home.

And besides... half the time teachers don't keep up with it. at least they didn't here.

[Lothar]

my point is that because of the privacy adults give themselves, they can do things like that and prevent their own family from finding out.

"Their own family" usually isn't responsible for their actions or well-being, unless we're talking about mental patients. If a (sane) adult does something stupid or harmful to themselves, it's their own fault; other adults aren't expected to watch over them, train them, or otherwise keep them out of trouble. Adults can voluntarily set up "accountability" systems with other adults, and many of them SHOULD, but for adults, it's entirely voluntary.

Your parents or guardians are responsible for you until you reach a certain age. That means they have every right to monitor your actions to as much detail as they need to in order to ensure your well-being. It's their responsibility to teach you and keep track of you, and they don't need your consent. As children get older, it's a good parenting practice to give them more space and more responsibility for themselves, but as long as you're under their roof, you should expect them to monitor you as much as they need to.

In the specific case of this school thing: it sounds like a useful tool for keeping track of how your kid is doing, and for improving communication, if you choose to use it that way. It could be abused by the same sort of people who abuse everything else, but if you're already a good parent, it sounds like it'll be helpful.

[WillyP]

I hope to have kids

...we're doomed...

[Sedwick]

You're not losing trust, kids can do crazy things sometimes. Until they're 18, you're entitled to know everything.

[Spaceboy]

I'm a Junior and have had this system since I was out of elementary school. I feel this system does not violate any trust at all, although my parents don't antagonize me for it. If I'm doing bad, they're going to find out, if I'm doing good, they're going to find out, regardless if this system exists or not. I honestly use it way more than my parents to check on how I'm doing myself. The very fact that you're worried about something as mild as that breaking trust with your kid(s) must mean you have a lot of respect for them, points to you.

However...

You couldnt be more wrong if you tried,
children lack common sense,
children lack experience
children lack knowledge
children lack will power (as do some adults)
children easily succum to peer pressure (as do some adults)

*succumb*


You have(had) no respect for your children and probably have no confidence in any of their abilities. I'd hate to have a dad (or possibly mom, who knows) like you. You see development as a flaw and as weakness that needs constant control and arbitration, and fail to see that an essential part of development is learning some independence, independently. I've never done drugs or had sex or anything- I haven't even had coffee (although that might be a little extreme, but it's what I chose) and my parents are very lenient on me, but not distant.

In fact, many of the kids I know that do smoke and have had sex at young ages like 15, have done so because of parents like you who don't give them any space. It's their form of getting some independence, and they ended up how their parents treated them. However, kids like that are a relatively small portion of those in my school and of those whom I know - claiming 99% of kids behave like that is utterly ridiculous.

[CUDA]

I'm a Junior and have had this system since I was out of elementary school. I feel this system does not violate any trust at all, although my parents don't antagonize me for it. If I'm doing bad, they're going to find out, if I'm doing good, they're going to find out, regardless if this system exists or not. I honestly use it way more than my parents to check on how I'm doing myself. The very fact that you're worried about something as mild as that breaking trust with your kid(s) must mean you have a lot of respect for them, points to you.

However...

You couldnt be more wrong if you tried,
Spaceboy lack's common sense,
Spaceboy lack's experience
Spaceboy lack's knowledge
Spaceboy lack's will power (as do some adults)
Spaceboy easily succum to peer pressure (as do some adults)

*succumb*


You have(had) no respect for your children and probably have no confidence in any of their abilities. I'd hate to have a dad (or possibly mom, who knows) like you. You see development as a flaw and as weakness that needs constant control and arbitration, and fail to see that an essential part of development is learning some independence, independently. I've never done drugs or had sex or anything- I haven't even had coffee (although that might be a little extreme, but it's what I chose) and my parents are very lenient on me, but not distant.

In fact, many of the kids I know that do smoke and have had sex at young ages like 15, have done so because of parents like you who don't give them any space. It's their form of getting some independence, and they ended up how their parents treated them. However, kids like that are a relatively small portion of those in my school and of those whom I know - claiming 99% of kids behave like that is utterly ridiculous.

Fixed sorry I mistyped the first time.

Just what I need in life some snot nosed kid that doesnt now squat about being an Adult or a Parent judging me personally and just an FYI for you Spacecadet, of my 8 children 2 are Married happily and are parents themselves, 2 are getting Married, 4 are still living at home. my 4 oldest are in the work force ALL 4 ARE IN MANAGEMENT(at ages 18-25) and VERY successfull at what they do.

NONE have gotten into drugs.
NONE have gotten into trouble with the Law.

My 2 oldest Sons have college educations and my second dauhgter in working on her degree as well

SO Spacecadet if my being a dick for a Father turned out the Quality Human-beings and people that my children have turned out to be. then maybe the world needs more Fathers that Care about their children, and maybe if your Father had taught you any lesson you wouldnt have started your post with a person shot at someone on a subject that you have NO knowldge about

[Spaceboy]

SO Spacecadet if my being a dick for a Father turned out the Quality Human-beings and people that my children have turned out to be. then maybe the world needs more Fathers that Care about their children, and maybe if your Father had taught you any lesson you wouldnt have started your post with a person shot at someone on a subject that you have NO knowldge about

You don't need to be over controlling to say you care about a child. Keep in mind, your first post took a personal shot at every human being under 18. Cuda, you definitely have more knowledge than me in life, however, for some reason you assume I know nothing because of that. That in itself proves you still have a lot to learn. Some of my post is obviously biased by some grievances that have happened to a few that I know. However, even though I am young, I live in a different segment of the world, I know different people and have had different experiences, and I know I have at least some knowledge that you do not. Absolute control is usually not a good thing, even if your kids appear to have turned out. With how you talk about them it seems you're bragging as if everything they've done are creations to how you have behaved to them - to me, it seems like to you that they are results, not friends.

[Bet51987]

Spaceboy

Cuda was correct and your very words and actions are proving it.

Bee

[Spaceboy]

Spaceboy

Cuda was correct and your very words and actions are proving it.

Bee

Yet there isn't a shred of debate in this post, just a pointed finger.

Answer me: How so?

[d3jake]

Agreed. To Bett's post mind you.

EDITed: for accuracy due to changed surrounding posts.

[Testiculese]

Funny how only the two children on the board are arguing, and arguing the wrong points. Your arguments are so full of holes its immediately obvious that neither of you have hit 18 yet.

Cuda happens to be right. His first post was not 'taking a shot' at under-18's, he is stating facts derived from *ahem* being a kid himself, and having 8 kids (holy mackerel) of his own, and from all his friends that have kids. Sorry. Most every child on the planet lacks common sense, experience, knowledge and willpower. Kids learn these things growing up (some never do). You can't trust your kids until they have shown that they can be trusted (some never do). Are you going to let a 5yo run around with a fork near electrical outlets and say 'oh I trust him, he needs his privacy'? No...that's why there are outlet protectors. Because kids don't know any better.

He also never mentioned a thing about being an overbearing parent until you took your shot at him. Where'd you get that idea?

Children have not earned the right to privacy or any kind of autonomous-ness. They are not responsible for themselves. They don't really even know what having responsibility means. Parents should have a good tight grip on their kids until they hit the wonder years, and then, if the child has earned it, more and more freedoms are given, and restrictions reduced. You don't just get a blank check. (All the kids in juvenile detention got blank checks.) When you get to 18, almost all restrictions should be gone by then. If not, you haven't grown up yet, no matter how much you think you have.

How children grow up is the result of the parent's parenting. Children most certainly are results. If the child is smart enough, and not enough are, they'll realize why they had boundaries and restrictions, and they will appreciate that they have a parent that cares enough to waste their time on them. (Because then it's not a waste)

\"When I was 16, I thought my dad was the dumbest guy in the world, when I turned 21, I was amazed at how much he learned in 5 years.\"

I never understood why people in their 30's would look at someone who's 18 and say \"s/he's just a baby\" I thought that was pretty condescending. I was about 18 at the time. Now I think back to that and think, yea, that's about right.