DescentBB

This is typically a Christian topic but is not limited to Christians alone ... just fyi.

Also, i can't remember if we've gone down this path before, if so, it's been a while and thought it worthwhile to bring up.

Why? I was listening to the radio today and heard a lesson by R.C Sproul. He's an apologist. The article is named \"The Accent is on Grace\".

Listen to it HERE

I've always had a hard time getting my head around this topic. It's one of the more complicated matters of Christian theology. While I've always believed it as something about it rang true, the \"why\" alluded me. Mr. Sproul here made it much clearer. It's about a 20 minute message but worth the listen.

Thoughts?

I tried multiple times but could not get the sermon to play on my ubuntu box. But I'll bite anyway and give my opinion on predestination:

Predestination is a topic that has confused Christians for ages. As Peter said:

2 Pe 3:15-16 ...even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood...

So what did Paul say about predestination?

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

So, sounds kinda like we don't get any say in the matter, right? What exactly did he mean when he said we were chosen and predestined? Does that mean some were chosen to be lost?

Paul's statements on predestination are best understood in the context of all the other texts on the same topic. For example:

1 Ti 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Here, Paul himself clearly states that God wants EVERYONE to be saved.

We also have Peter saying:
2 Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

And in the old testament:
Eze 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’

And to top it all off, the words of Christ Himself:
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

So how are we to interpret this concept of predestination that Paul speaks about?

The word predestination, that Paul uses is the Greek verb proorizo which means, roughly, \"to decide beforehand\". What was decided beforehand, before even the foundations of the world?

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

EVERYONE was predestined to be saved. Every single person on earth who ever lived, or ever WILL live, was guaranteed salvation in the blood of Jesus Christ. All of them.

BUT, and this may be the most amazing mystery in the universe, God gave man free will and allows us to REJECT the salvation he has predestined us for.

Jn 3:17-18 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Note again Pauls own words:

1 Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God is the Saviour of ALL men, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM. But not all accept, that is why he is SPECIALLY Saviour of those who Believe.

God offers salvation to every one of us. We are all chosen, elected, and predestined to spend eternity with our Lord and Saviour. The only thing that can keep us from it, is our own choice.

Choose life.

I see the physical world as set by mathematics and therefore being an unchanging machine. No cause for change, no effect of change. We, being human and bearing choice, can change the world and therefore add an unpredictable element to it, making things not predetermined in so much as we choose them not to be.

As for any religious aspect to predestination, we were all made to be one with God. That doesn't mean we will choose to be one with God. That choice gains its infinite quality at the judgement.

Why does God want us to be one with him? Everything that exists is dependent on God. Why? Because God is being and everything is a reflection of that being. Some reflect less, others more. Every reflection, nevertheless, has a limit. A human being can't reflect God to the point that that human being can create another free-will being like God can. However, that human being can become perfect with perfect knowledge of how things work and perfect order within the soul. By this perfection, one exists. Lacking this order causes one to fade out of existance, although never having the ability to fully fade out. If one is concerned about one's own being, one will feel the pain of missing a part of oneself if one departs from God. Therefore, in order to be happy, one must be one with God fully, resembling God as complete as humans can. By doing this, man becomes happy and God receives pleasure from our happiness, a happiness that is shared between man and God through love. So how do we receive perfect knowledge and perfect order? Well, perfect knowledge comes to us at death. It really isn't that important in so much as it doesn't have to do with what is good and what is evil. Perfect order is much more important, and that comes from Jesus.

Catholic View: Jesus created a system in which we would be able to eat his body and drink his blood so that he may become one with us. By taking in Jesus every Mass, we stay on the right track, something that is impossible to do by oneself in this confusing world. The Eucharist gives us understanding of what we need to understand in order to love God perfectly by putting Christ (God) in us.

Aggressor Prime wrote:I see the physical world as set by mathematics and therefore being an unchanging machine. No cause for change, no effect of change.

Is chance/randomness part of these mathematics? Or how do account for all these random processes that occur on the quantum level?

We, being human and bearing choice, can change the world and therefore add an unpredictable element to it, making things not predetermined in so much as we choose them not to be.

So man is not determined by these mathematics? This would mean that he can transcend the laws of physics. How is this possible? What about animals, do they also add an unpredictable element?

well written Kilarin.

What I wonder at, at times, is as God is omnipresent or outside the confines of time, He is "at the end" of events as well at the beginning ...at the same time. He knows who "makes it" and who doesn't. Oddly this doesn't affect our free will and the ability to choose. o_0

The verse that always comes to my mind is Romans 9:20-24

Rom 9:20-24 wrote: 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Prime, that isn't really correct doctrine. If someone explained it to you that way, they were sorely mistaken. If you like, I can go into some detail what the sacrament is supposed to mean. or..i can pawn it off on Foil, kilarin or Lothar. ;D (just kidding guys)

Duper wrote:...I can go into some detail what the sacrament is supposed to mean. or..i can pawn it off on Foil, kilarin or Lothar. ;D (just kidding guys)

The meaning of and reason for the sacrament of communion/Eucharist is a good topic, but we should probably keep it in a separate thread.

Well-posted Kilarin. I completely agree that the word 'predestination' in the opening of Ephesians refers to God's pre-destined plan for our salvation through Christ, rather than a deterministic universe.

That said, I'd like to see Lothar and/or Drakona post here, as they have a somewhat different position on the matter. (The last time I remember predestination coming up as a topic, it ended up being about a 5 page thread with some pretty massive posts; I wish I could find it.)

Even atthe quantum level, there is no real randomness, even if we don't understand it. Cause and effect. No cause, no effect. The cause is the beginning. Nothing happened outside nature till man. Man's soul is spiritual. Animals, being part of nature, are machines like nature. As my philosophy prof said: kick a table and it makes a noise; kick a dog and it also makes a noise.

A human being may choose not to respond when I kick one.

your prof should have stayed awake during physics.

2 noises (or more) may result from from kicking the dog. You will get a noise from your foot impacting the dog, and the dog will like cry out to some degree....unless the dog is dead. Then it becomes an inanimate object as the table.

It's a rather prejudicial example anyways. Humans don't lack free will because they can't control the beating of their heart. Even sophisticated animals such as chimpanzees don't have cognitive control over their vocalizations like humans do. I remember hearing about one study where a smaller chimp would grunt when it was given food, as chimps apparently do when they see food. But, upon hearing the grunt, a larger chimp would always take the food. They tried to get the smaller chimp to stop vocalizing, but, ultimately, the smaller chimp learned to cover its mouth to prevent its uncontrollable grunt from being heard, since it couldn't prevent it otherwise. I guess the moral of the story is that this is one reason why they teach chimps sign language, since they largely lack cognitive control over their vocalizations. I don't have a source for this, so I hope I haven't butchered this study too badly. Has anyone else heard this?

i've heard of it

I'm bumping this, with intentions of posting my own response on the matter.... once I get to it.