\"Radical Islam\" isn't really so radical...

[Nightshade]

Not in the eyes of academics from Saudi Arabia:

I am writing to tell you about a small success story in the struggle against Sharia. I am a law student at the University of Cincinnati. Last Thursday our school hosted a Sharia apologist from Saudi Arabia, Dr. Abdulkareem Hamad A. Alsaiygh. He's Dean at the Center for Contemporary Islamic Studies and Dialogue among Civilizations, Imam Mohammed bin Saud Islamic University.

The purported goal of his visit was to dispel myths that the West has about Islam and Sharia Law. Because of your written work and this website, a group of us were prepared to ask questions that cut through the typical obfuscating rhetoric of this Sharia apologist. Heading into the event, the vast majority of students in the audience were sympathetic and welcoming to the speaker and his ideas. By the end of the event, they were all rightly horrified.

Among other things, our questions forced Dr. Alsaiygh to admit the following:

1. That apostasy is rightly punishable by death under Islamic law and the law of Saudi Arabia.
2. That there will never be a Christian church in Saudi Arabia.
3. That a Christian church is considered a national security risk to Saudi Arabia and other Islamic states.
4. That stoning is appropriate punishment for adultery.
5. That most women raped in Saudi Arabia deserve some punishment for \"putting themselves in that situation.\"
6. That \"interfaith dialogue\" could never include polytheistic religions.
7. That Christian evangelism in Saudi Arabia is a subversive act comparable to planning a terrorist attack in the US.
8. And that all these were \"moderate\" Islamic positions.

Of course, he attempted to take us on the obligatory guilt trip by blaming the West for radical Islam. But, by this point, he had lost the vast majority of the audience.

http://jihadwatch.org/

[roid]

shutup

[Dakatsu]

Actually ThunderBunny, according to wikipedia:

It is a common myth that the Shar'ia code bans the establishment of other religious institutions, however, the Shar'ia law code does not say anything pertaining to the establishment of religious institutions of other religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

It is under section 2.7, titled "Common Myths About Shar'ia", about the second paragraph.

Also in the same article, it says:

Shar'ia is also known to muslims as happy fun time because in the Quran, it says that Allah and Muhammed will come down and give everyone free kittens if the state accepts the Shar'ia. Seriously, who does not love kittens to the point where they make all their women dress in a giant blanket?

[Duper]

Cute Dakatsu. :p

[Dakatsu]

I didn't plan this one out as well as my last one, but when I scroll down the screen, you can't see the last paragraph

I of course totally BS'd the first paragraph, as Shar'ia does in fact limit rights, but I needed something for someone to go \"WHAT? TEH WIKI SAYS DAT?\" and click on the link

[Will Robinson]

I don't know the details about what is and isn't written in Sharia law but it is true that, as recently as approximately a year ago, people trying to board a plane destined for Saudi Arabia were not allowed to board until they threw away their bibles and the justification was Saudi Arabia law which prohibits bringing Christian propaganda into the country.

It is also true that school books used in Saudi schools teach the children that jihad can and should include violence against all non believers and simply because they are non believers, not that they are also invading or any other rational reason by western standards to teach your children to attack someone.
They are also taught in these books that lying to a non believer is not lying.

So take those rather large grains of salt with your blanket dismissal of anything-Thunderbunny.

[Bet51987]

^x2 for what Will said.

Dakatsu, did you have a point?

Bee

[Cuda68]

So take those rather large grains of salt with your blanket dismissal of anything-Thunderbunny.

Not to sure what you mean, but do not take the Muslim Faith lightly {All of them, moderates and the radicals alike}. They have been openly attacking our interests and killing our citizens for many years now. It was in the 1930's that they named the U.S. as a justifiable target and in the 1960's that they ramped up attacks against us. They have made it clear there is nothing to discuss or work out, non-believers have to die and the U.S. is one of the top 10 enemy's of Islam since the 1930's. Turning our backs or throwing money at this problem is not the answer. They need to somehow loose the will to fight and come to the decision that talks are the answer. Until they are willing to talk, there attacks will never cease.

[Will Robinson]

So take those rather large grains of salt with your blanket dismissal of anything-Thunderbunny.

Not to sure what you mean, but do not take the Muslim Faith lightly {All of them, moderates and the radicals alike}. They have been openly attacking our interests and killing our citizens for many years now. It was in the 1930's that they named the U.S. as a justifiable target and in the 1960's that they ramped up attacks against us. They have made it clear there is nothing to discuss or work out, non-believers have to die and the U.S. is one of the top 10 enemy's of Islam since the 1930's. Turning our backs or throwing money at this problem is not the answer. They need to somehow loose the will to fight and come to the decision that talks are the answer. Until they are willing to talk, there attacks will never cease.

What I meant was, although Thunderbunny likes to do drive-by posting of anti-islamic rhetoric a lot of times, I think the premise of his post in this thread is relevant and based in fact.
I do not take islamo-fascism lightly it is a serious threat to all that I love.

[Dakatsu]

I don't like Islam and the Shar'ia and this crap (Islam-o-fascism is near on the dot, but it just sounds so childish, with the o in it), but I decided to troll these TB threads because they always end up similar to this:

-ThunderBunny posts a copy and paste off of some anti-islam website.
-Bettina will post that Islam is evil and needs to be eradicated or whatever.
-Duper and co. joins in, blah blah blah Islam sucks but Christianity is the religion of freedom and is the source of loveable kittens.
-Roid and co. group blasts Bettina and co. for hate mongering and starts to for some reason really hammer Bettina in particular and say oh you hate mongererererer you suck grrr, hoe, even though they entirely ignore that Islam's core teachings are evil (but to be clear, most muslims are nice people!).
-Then the flaming goes on and on, with everyone flaming eachother and focusing on the personal crap of everyone, f**k you, you are Hitler, blah blah blah. Sometimes this ends with Bettina apologizing even though everyone else but here started it.

And the thread keeps on going and going and going...

[Ferno]

[Foil]

Seriously, everyone. We can talk about this stuff without people yelling "Islamophobe Muslim-hater!" on one side or "Blind Islami-fundamentalist-hugger!" on the other.

... Or at least we should be able to.

[CDN_Merlin]

Anyone remember reading the Old Testament? I clearly remember reading some disturbing stuff in there that reminds me of what everyone is saying about Islam.

So basically, Islam is a few hundred years behind the times.

[Duper]

lol.. Thanks for the recognition Dak, but I've never said anything about kittens...lovable or otherwise. At least not in THIS forum.

And if you remember Merlin, the Arab nation (not necessarily Islam) got its start in the Old Testament. What things do you mean? I'm a bit curious.

[CDN_Merlin]

It's been about a decade or more since I read it but I remember reading that the people (can't remember which group) had to kill non believers and take the women for themselves. This is when I decided not to continue reading it. It disgusted me to much. It was the first book when you started.

[Dakatsu]

lol.. Thanks for the recognition Dak, but I've never said anything about kittens...lovable or otherwise.

I couldn't actually think of a specific person, and I didn't wanna use Bettina because people might of though "Bettina and co." apologized, and you posted, so I used you (Roid is just louder than the others, so he got himself and co. )

[Bet51987]

lol.. Thanks for the recognition Dak, but I've never said anything about kittens...lovable or otherwise.

I couldn't actually think of a specific person, and I didn't wanna use Bettina because people might of though "Bettina and co." apologized, and you posted, so I used you (Roid is just louder than the others, so he got himself and co. )

I get in enough trouble here without having company. And, the only person who called me a "ho" was MD who got yelled at and left.

Anyone remember reading the Old Testament? I clearly remember reading some disturbing stuff in there that reminds me of what everyone is saying about Islam.

So basically, Islam is a few hundred years behind the times.

"The Lord is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath"

Yep, sounds about right.

Bee

[Dakatsu]

I get in enough trouble here without having company. And, the only person who called me a "ho" was MD who got yelled at and left.

It's called comic exaggeration, such as when I said that Duper and co. claimed that Christianity is the source of loveable kittens. (We all know kittens are grown in crops!)

[roid]

-Roid and co. group blasts Bettina and co. for hate mongering and starts to for some reason really hammer Bettina in particular and say oh you hate mongererererer you suck grrr, hoe, even though they entirely ignore that Islam's core teachings are evil (but to be clear, most muslims are nice people!).

i was focusing on Bee in that old thread, because I am honestly still concerned that Bee's sudden anti-Islam stance may be a form of Stockholm syndrome. Brought on by the pressures of her dualistic life.

I agree, Islam is stupid*. But surely any hatred people have should be tempered by how stupid Christianity is - and the fact that Christianity is all around you. If you want to change the world - start at home.
Don't be a hypocrite and accuse people so far removed from you, while your own culture does similar things. Remove the rafter from your own eye first.
These pitchfork carrying mobs need to grab their forks and stab themselves in the face.

*but i havn't had too many indepth religious discussions with Muslims. So i'm not sure if Practical Islam (ie: not militant crazies) is more or less stupid than Christianity.

[Duper]

I get in enough trouble here without having company. And, the only person who called me a "ho" was MD who got yelled at and left.

It's called comic exaggeration, such as when I said that Duper and co. claimed that Christianity is the source of loveable kittens. (We all know kittens are grown in crops!)

well. MINE are hydroponic. .. but you didn't see me post that.

The problem with that Roid is that "at home" is just about the ONLY place that most people are responsible for. We, as individuals, are not responsible for our "culture" or what people in power do without telling us.. or even if they DO tell us.

And Merlin. I don't remember reading anything like in Genesis. Abraham had two kids. Ishmael and Isaac. (Gen 16:11) Read the whole chapter for the whole story. But basically, Ishmael goes on to be the father of the Arab nation and Issac the father of Israel. Any time that God told the people to go in and kill a people HE had them kill EVERYONE and burn everything and not loot.

[Spidey]

“WAR Kittens?…No cute kittens…baby cats.”

“Don't be a hypocrite and accuse people so far removed from you, while your own culture does similar things. Remove the rafter from your own eye first.”

Last time I checked “My” culture didn’t hang homosexuals, or stone women for adultery. To name only a few. (and that’s not the “militant crazies” either)

And where to hell are these mobs of people carrying pitchforks?

My intent here is not to bash Islam…but man sometimes things need to be said.

[Kilarin]

but i havn't had too many indepth religious discussions with Muslims. So i'm not sure if Practical Islam (ie: not militant crazies) is more or less stupid than Christianity.

Last time I checked “My” culture didn’t hang homosexuals, or stone women for adultery. To name only a few. (and that’s not the “militant crazies” either)
And where to hell are these mobs of people carrying pitchforks?
My intent here is not to bash Islam…but man sometimes things need to be said

And it's true. Islamophobia is an overreaction. But there is also no doubt that there is a problem with modern Islam. I'll give you two examples. Please note that these are based strictly on a WORDLY point of view. As a Christian I've got LOTS of gripes with Islam, but that's a completely different issue.

1: Islam has NOT learned to police itself. There are plenty of Christian terrorists. But who is hunting them? Other Christians. The Christian community has lots of problems, but it does make at least an attempt (or at least a better attempt than Islam) to keep its own radical nut cases tendency towards violence under control.
Islam has NOT shown any tendency to do this. The moderates may voice some mild disapproval, but they are too frightened to back it up with force. Islam needs to reach the point where it can police its own radical violent elements before I will consider it to qualify as a "civilized" religion.

2: Islam, with a few rare exceptions, completely rejects the concept of separation of church and state. Christianity often fails at this itself, but it has certainly succeeded better than Islam. Even the WORST Christian nations generally try to achieve some sort of separation between the worldly and spiritual powers. ANY combination of Church and State, no matter WHAT religion the Church is, ALWAYS results in the corruption of BOTH the Church and the State.

Just look at the history of Europe. Or even just England. Until you get at least the rudiments of separation, its just one religious war after another. Islam is in that same state right now. Until Islam can completely reject the notion of Sharia law, they can not be considered a civilized or safe religion.

[roid]

Yeah - we could be talking seriously, respectfully, and carefully about this.
But should we approach the subject from the standpoint of a typically islamophobe thread? i don't want to, no. It's going the wrong direction already, why bother, why not just start over?
Instead of trying to grab the thread, turn it around, and go the direction you want to go. Why not just START with more favourable conditions, start with a pro-Islam thread. You are swimming against the tide, the vibe of the thread already set out in the OP.

it's performing surgery in a sewer, preaching in a warzone, polishing the brass on the Titanic.


When it comes to threads that start off with Thunderbunny - i don't think they deserve to be read. The thread STARTS with bashing Islam - what's the point in continuing the thread. There are things that need to be said - but don't say them here. I do not want to wade through anymore of these patented idiocy threads to check if anyone else has said anything worthwhile. They should all be put into NHB.


What's funny is that i once made a thread questioning the word ★■◆●.
I'm obviously not a racist, and the thread was worded carefully, coz i had some serious questions about culture and i wanted to see how people answered.
But that thread was taken as so offensive, simply by it's chosen subject of discussion, that it was moved to NHB.

Yet every single blatently biggoted Islam bashing thread by Thunderbunny is just left here in E&C and we all have a nice chat about it.

We could be having good careful discussions about Islam, like my ★■◆●-word thread. But no, we have Thunderbunny's threads, and they're all \"A-OK\" supposedly.

[Duper]

Roid.


What TB has been trying to get ppl to understand on this board is that Islam is by it's nature HOSTILE toward anything that IS Not Islam.

That is fact.

You don't need a nutjob to follow its teaching along those lines. It's a common theme.

There are a LOT of Muslims that are moderate. That's cool and normal for the human condition. BUT the teachings are inherently hostile to all things non-Islam. Period.

I'm not fingering people, I'm fingering teaching and theology here.

This isn't bigotry. It's an examination of the facts.

[roid]

Roid.


What TB has been trying to get ppl to understand on this board is that Islam is by it's nature HOSTILE toward anything that IS Not Islam.

By showing everyone that he is by his nature HOSTILE toward anything that IS Islam?

TB's threads are not calls for understanding. They are constant dumb hostility, copy-pasted from other people who are dumb and hostile. What am i supposed to read from that?

Besides the blatantly obvious: "biggot's thread - move on".

It's a thread for being dumb and hostile towards Islam. OP is dumb and hostile, the copy-pastes are dumb and hostile, all the threads are dumb and hostile.
And we pretend they are a place for civil discussion.
ignoring the deafening noise from the OP - how do you do it?

[Kilarin]

And we pretend they are a place for civil discussion.

Cause if we pretend hard enough, it might become true!

I don't disagree at all that TB has an agenda. The attitude of "All Islam is BAD!" is less than helpful. But if we try to respond with reasoned discussion, we might find that happy middle ground where the truth usually lies.

[Will Robinson]

...Why not just START with more favourable conditions, start with a pro-Islam thread....

Well if you did, and I'm really curious to see just how much substantive content that subject could inspire, wouldn't it be in bad form for others to post 'what's wrong with Islam' in a thread that was originally started as a pro-Islam topic?

Personally I can't think of anything remarkable about Islam other than it's intrinsic violence. Apologists for Islam say "Oh yea! Well Muslims invented [insert medical/mathematical/whatever advance here]"..
Well was it Islam that caused those contributions or the people who deserve the credit because if you want to champion Islam for being the source of those human achievements then you'll need to re-evaluate your criticisms of Christianity and assign all sorts of praise for the 'Christian' contributions to the arts, sciences, industry, charity etc. etc.!

All I hear when someone points the finger of blame at Islam is "Well the Christians had the Crusades!!!"

Yea, so a few centuries ago you would have had a point!
So I'll see your worn out piece of ancient history and raise you this current event:

Just a few years ago one of Islams most devout and outspoken advocates killed thousands of innocent people in one day! All in the name of Allah and it was cheered by hundreds of thousands of faithful Muslims around the globe.

I'm really interested in learning about anything remarkably good about Islam. In what way does Islam stand out from the crowd of religions as uniquely good?

[Duper]

Roid.

you don't get it. I don't mean that rhetorically or derisively. But you just don't seem to really understand this ideology. I've known a couple of Muslims and they were really great people and Moderate. They also think that Tehran is a very frightening place.... that's why they are here.
gah.. out of time.. post later!

*edit*

Ok, a bit more time. (on break) I apologize for my apparent truculence. It certainly isn't deserved. You are entitled to your opinions and to post them here (of course). I'm just really wanting to you to understand that Islam is more conversionarilly (is that a word?) hard core than you might think Christianity could ever be.

And yeah, there were the crusades, but again I'll point out again that Islam had it's own. In fact it carved a bloody path through upper Mesopotamia and into Asia minor and all the way across northern Africa eventually stopping in Spain. They slaughtered anyone who would not convert. They were nearly as thorough in their destruction as the Romans were.

[Dakatsu]

And the thread keeps on going and going and going...

ITS LIEK A TOTALLY UNPREDICTABLE THREAD!

[Spidey]

Roid…

You need to pick your battles a little better, that old tired “Nah Nah you too” defense of Islam just doesn’t hold water, it’s intellectually bankrupt, somewhere along the line you need to defend Islam with its own merit.

You simply keep using TB’s threads as an excuse to bash Christianity. In case you are not aware this society is a “Judeo-Christian” society, so in all fairness you need to include everyone in your little hate parade.

And I for one would like to see if you have a world view that’s not based on Wikipedia.

So please start that “Pro-Islam” thread. And please keep it to the 21st century.

[roid]

\"What's good about our enemy?\"
That's every would-be hater's perogative - to make a constant effort to find out.
I'm not the one posting anti-Islam rhetoric. And I shouldn't care.
Like i said - it's not my job to hold your hands. It's not my job to post opposing viewpoints just coz they're missing from the debate, to make it ballanced. Someone who's actually interested in the subject should do that. And if no-one can - that just shows that as a group you're not interested in the subject - you're just interested in hating.

You all seem to just be towing the propaganda line.
Considering the incumbent political & politico-media climate - it's unsurprising that your image of Islam is nothing but violence. You're being manipulated into thinking that - you know that right?

I'd just like it if you were all visibly more intellectually honest. This is a hostile thread to Islam, you live in a culture hostile to Islam, your incumbent political and media climate surrounds you with hostile viewpoints towards Islam. Don't you think something is up? Don't you think it's all a little too easy to just go along with it?
At least try to disarm the pervasive anti-Islam rhetoric before you start. At least admit it's all pervasive in your culture before you start - and keep it in mind as you debate the subject.

[Spidey]

Nice Cop Out

[roid]

oh poor you spidey

[Sergeant Thorne]

Maybe it's different over there, Roid, but over here all of our leaders, and I believe even the majority of the media, bend over backwards to portray Islam as a peaceful religion. A \"religion of peace.\" They're happy to be able to make a sale of it, because it suits their crowd-pleasing needs, but I don't buy it.

Maybe I'm totally missing something here, but as far as I know the P.C. rhetoric over here is \"Islam is peace.\" Maybe I am missing something, because I don't watch a whole lot of T.V. Can someone enlighten me otherwise?

Concerning the modernization of Islam. I'd still be suspicious of it. Compromising something as weighty and absolute as religion is foolish, in my opinion. I firmly believe that if something that claims to be absolutely right is found to be wrong, then it should be absolutely dismissed, not altered in order to maintain its status.

Like I've said before, if a younger, more honest generation comes along and gets ahold of the basic, radical teachings of a religion that everyone else has compromised, they'll be justified, on a certain level, in pursuing it, even if the consequences are bad.

[Will Robinson]

....At least admit it's all pervasive in your culture before you start - and keep it in mind as you debate the subject.

You are showing your own prejudice there because anti-Islam is definitely NOT pervasive in our culture. In our culture we have made many, many concessions to accommodate Muslims and we go out of our way to respect their religion. We are a predominantly Christian society/culture yet we are so sensitive to the feelings of the minority religious factions within our mix that we outlaw the practice of Christianity in our schools...yet we make exceptions to those laws to allow school organized Dress like a Muslim Day or Read the Koran type programs designed to teach our students tolerance.... does that sound like pervasive anti-Muslim sentiment?!?

Contrast that with typical Islamic cultures/countries where a Christian can be stoned to death or have his head cut off for teaching others about his religion... a culture where children in their schools are taught to hate the non-Muslims and I'd say your statement smacks of anti-American anti-Christian sentiment.

I'm not asking people to hate Muslims, I'm asking you knee-jerk Islam-apologists to wake up and smell the jihad!
I see places like Germany and the U.K. are now suffering the consequences of bending over backwards to the immigrants from the middle east coming in and demanding the centuries old culture and sovereign governments of those places set aside their laws and traditions to make the Muslims feel at home. In return Islam offers them what?!? Convert to Islam or die?!?! Wow, that's a bargain!! Lets get some of that over here! Sure beats the hell out of letting clueless cowards call us bigots huh?!!!

[Spidey]

Dude I wish I had your eloquence!

Like most people who don’t live here, he doesn’t have a clue what it’s really like here. And hey he “wants” to remain ignorant. So what can you do?

[roid]

....At least admit it's all pervasive in your culture before you start - and keep it in mind as you debate the subject.

You are showing your own prejudice there because anti-Islam is definitely NOT pervasive in our culture. In our culture we have made many, many concessions to accommodate Muslims and we go out of our way to respect their religion. We are a predominantly Christian society/culture yet we are so sensitive to the feelings of the minority religious factions within our mix that we outlaw the practice of Christianity in our schools...yet we make exceptions to those laws to allow school organized Dress like a Muslim Day or Read the Koran type programs designed to teach our students tolerance.... does that sound like pervasive anti-Muslim sentiment?!?

it's obviously not OFFICIAL anti-muslim sentiment, that would be very non-PC. It's just something that a lot of people subscribe to, and it's fed by your pervasive media culture:

23 percent of Americans regularly watch Fox

I'm not asking people to hate Muslims, I'm asking you knee-jerk Islam-apologists to wake up and smell the jihad!

oh i smell it, and i've said that. But it's hard to tell the difference between the smell of actual Islamic suckage, and ideological propaganda fueled by the political Right.

It seems that a few of you can't tell the difference - and don't care to. Tools

[Foil]

...over here all of our leaders, and I believe even the majority of the media, bend over backwards to portray Islam as a peaceful religion. A "religion of peace."

...anti-Islam is definitely NOT pervasive in our culture. In our culture we have made many, many concessions to accommodate Muslims and we go out of our way to respect their religion.

I gotta call "bull^&*#", because you guys have got to be kidding.

From my experience (yes, I live in the U.S.), if there's an inaccurate "Islam is about peace" slant by some media, it's outweighed by the opposite (and just as inaccurate) "Muslims are all uncivilized and violent" portrayal by the majority of North American media I've seen. Not to mention all the crap on the 'net, and the general attitude I see people exhibit when a Muslim is even nearby.

Open your eyes, guys. Since 9/11, the North American culture has been anything but "overly supportive" of Islam.

[Will Robinson]

I'm not asking people to hate Muslims, I'm asking you knee-jerk Islam-apologists to wake up and smell the jihad!

oh i smell it, and i've said that. But it's hard to tell the difference between the smell of actual Islamic suckage, and ideological propaganda fueled by the political Right.

It seems that a few of you can't tell the difference - and don't care to. Tools

I can tell the difference and I outlined a few really telling examples that contrast the two cultures. what do parents in each culture demand the children be taught in school about the other culture is a big indicator of where the peoples heart is at!!
You can find evil bastards in both places but in America, we, as a culture, have spoken quite clearly with the accommodations and adjustments I mentioned above. In Saudi Arabia and many other Islamic countries, they too, have spoken quite clearly, by demanding their children be taught a much different lesson regarding how to hate all the non-believers, how they are sub-human, they are taught how to celebrate the suicide bombers etc. etc.

You cite anecdotal evidence of hatred which is always present in any culture, I site what is "pervasive", your words not mine, which is what I challenged you on. It is your perspective that is off and I wonder if it just a mistake on your part or are you spinning up some bull★■◆●?

Pervasive bigotry would be like banning the other cultures religion from our shores! Jailing their Imams for teaching their brand of faith here.
You know like they do to us over there while our police protect their mosques over here!!

[roid]

i said it wasn't OFFICIAL.
It'd have to be official for you to ban them comming to our shores, or jailing them. That'd be very non-PC.