DescentBB

The world, the universe, all of humanity, everything in existence is a dream. Even my body is part of this dream. The only real thing is my mind, which is just a thought - one lone, lonely thought drifting through a vast abyss of endless emptiness for all eternity. Once this body dies, I will wake to discover that I am, in fact, a lone thought, the only thing in existence... and that, my friend, is my life.

I really believe this. The only reason I do anything anymore is to keep from being bored. I really don't think this existence serves any other purpose. It makes sense, though. If you were a thought, capable of thinking/dreaming/imagining anything into existence, and you were all alone forever, what would you do?

My proof for this perspective? I have none... but there is no proof to the contrary. The only thing I can prove exists is my mind/soul/psyche. Call it what you will, it is the only thing I know exists without a doubt. Everything else is conjecture, and therefore negligible. Sometimes I can almost forget this, forget who I am... but it never quite happens. I feel enlightened, and yet... some tiny fragment of who I once was feels a sense of... what? Remorse? Sadness? I feel a loss, and yet I feel as though I have gained everything. It's worst at night, or perhaps I should say best. I feel most at home in the darkness, alone and cut off from everything and everyone... and yet inseparable, as everything originated from my un- / sub-conscious. Life for once is exactly what it should be for me, and I have found a tremendous sense of objectivity. Am I at peace? One might say so. Then again, every night I go through hell as my nonexistent emotions come rushing back with a vengeance in every dream I have, regardless of the content. It's a curious combination of tranquility and vapidity, of resignation and apathy. No, I don't miss my old life... but that doesn't mean that this one is any better. Sometimes insecurity is poorly substituted for a sense of closure... and sometimes ignorance is preferable to revelation.

I find it somewhat laudable that my mind could conceive of such a twisted, selfish universe. Unfortunately, this seems to reflect on my persona. Ironically enough, however, without this latently corrupt and backwards reality, the truly enjoyable things in life would have no meaning: indeed, sometimes the most beautiful flower is found growing in the darkest of places. This gives me reason to believe that everything is relative, including \"good\" and \"evil\". There are some \"evil\" things which are \"better\" than some \"good\" things. There is no black and white - only grey... and grey is the colour of my soul.

This basically disproves the existence of societal God personae. How can a god destroy/put away/dispel all evil? Without evil, no god could remain good. Heaven/Paradise/other celestial dwellingplace would lose its meaning, as well as its value. Gold crowns, virgins and Trees of Life mean nothing if there is no evil to contrast. Hence, there are no gods or devils save the ones in my mind, my own creations and delusions. There is no After, excepting the cold, lonely void to whence I shall return upon awakening from this dream. Such is my existence.


I wrote this sometime in the middle of the night and have only now gotten around to making a thread about it. I'm not really looking for input, per se, just throwing out my two cents as usual.

I find it absolutely impossible that the 'reality' that most people see actually exists. They don't see reality at all, they are most definitely in their own little dream world.

Mm... but if you see your dream world for what it is, does it become any more or less 'real'?

I would suggest that you go outside and get a grip before you lose your mind. I dare say insanity's knocking at your door.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:I would suggest that you go outside and get a grip before you lose your mind.

I'm afraid that happened long ago. Or maybe I found it? Who's to say...

Let me help you out with that.

You're real.
You're nuts.
You're rambling.

Now go outside and play.

I was just thinking along those lines the other day. Really, what is the point of life? Why do we even exist at all and for what purpose? All we do is eat, reproduce, fight, kill, steal, manipulate, force others to conform and use up resources to the detriment of the entire planet. Someone's failed experiment or toy? Why would an omnipotent being even exist at all and why would it want to create a planet with life on it?

If we do exist and we are not some omnipotent being's dream, is there other life out there as well or are we alone? Do we exist in multiple universes in different forms with similar thoughts, in parallel? Weirder yet, do we live on small speck of a larger conglomeration that makes up a whole separate giant world, like microbes on a speck of dust lying on the floor, a universe within a universe, that repeats itself like the infinite images in two reflecting mirrors? So many possibilities to wrap the mind around.

I think you got that right Thorne.
You are ripe for a religious epiphany MD-1118 any minute now I expect to hear that you have been born again. In a world filled with beauty and wonder you lie awake at night worried about what it all means.

Go out and play. Good advice.

The universe is not only wierder than you think, it's weirder than you can possibly imagine. So why do we exist?

You need to stop looking for so many answers and find a girlfriend because it's not healthy to think all that angst and insecurity is caused by sources beyond your reach, it needs a face and it might as well be a pretty one on top of a killer body...

Ah, but there's no point in any of it. Even my pondering existence itself is meaningless. The only meaning life has is that which one gives it, and I have given mine none. Ergo, the only reason I do anything at all and don't simply lapse into a catatonic state is because I wish to do so. Concordently, my actions are merely boredom prevention, and I think one best belays boredom in whatever manner one sees fit. I happen to enjoy pondering existence. It's a hell of a lot better than pondering nonexistence. I nearly went mad doing that a few weeks back. Actually, I may very well have gone mad. I honestly don't know anymore.

There are two ways to interpret the question Why do we exist?

The first way is to interpret it as asking By what means did we come to exist? This can be answered by appealing to cause and effect, by appealing to science. We exist because of a process of evolution that began billions of years ago. But I don't think this is what you're asking.

The second way is to interpret it as asking What is the purpose for human existence? But this is a loaded question in many ways. Purposes require intentions, so for there to even be a purpose for all human life, there must be some intention behind all human life, which would require something akin to a God. So by even asking this question, you are setting yourself up for a religious conversion, as Ford Prefect points out.

But I think that it is a loaded question in another, more subtle way. There is no \"the purpose\" for anything built into that thing. It often makes sense to use language like this, and we know what it means. For example, the purpose of a toaster is to toast bread. But this language, at best, says something like: a toaster was invented to toast bread, or most people intend to use toasters to toast bread, or etc. But what if someone intended to use a toaster for something else? Knowing that toasters were invented to toast bread or that most people intend to use toasters to toast bread gives us no instruction on what we actually should and should not do with toasters. In this sense, there is no \"the purpose\" for toasters. Just the inventor's purpose, most people's purpose, etc. You might have your own purpose for your toaster. (Throw it into the bathtub to murder the wife, for example. )

So if you found out one day that a deity created you for a purpose, I don't think that you would be any more satisfied. Suppose that you found out that god wanted you to exist so that you could mine coal for the rest of your life. Is knowing this really what you were looking for? Then go grab a shovel and get digging. But I don't think you'll find this compelling. Why? Because this isn't \"the purpose\" for your existence either, because there is no \"the purpose\" for anything. It is just a deity's purpose for your existence. Your parents may have theirs. You hopefully have your own. If you're looking for \"the purpose\" for anything, you're looking for something that can't exist.

Give your own life purpose. This is the most satisfying kind of purpose. Find a job you like. Help someone out with something. It'll feel good.

..

MD-1118 wrote:...The only meaning life has is that which one gives it.....

That's exactly right but encompasses a long list. Some people (like me) are perfectly fine knowing that that meaning is all it is while others need a spiritual reason. For years I was where you are now and instead of going mad I eventually made a choice. For me, deleting the God thing gave me a much clearer answer of why the universe is here, what I was, and how I wanted to act toward all living things.
For others, God is the answer for the same things I just mentioned and that's fine but you seem to be more like me. I don't know you, but that's my guess.

.....and I have given mine none...

And that's the problem. Choose. Then, if you work, do some volunteer stuff after work. Get into a church group. Talk to a priest. Talk to us. Get a girlfriend. Find a hobby. Go scuba diving. Go jogging or biking. God, I wish I could help you.

Bettina

Will Robinson wrote:You need to stop looking for so many answers and find a girlfriend because it's not healthy to think all that angst and insecurity is caused by sources beyond your reach, it needs a face and it might as well be a pretty one on top of a killer body...

QFT

Bet51987 wrote:

MD-1118 wrote:...The only meaning life has is that which one gives it.....

That's exactly right but encompasses a long list. Some people (like me) are perfectly fine knowing that that meaning is all it is while others need a spiritual reason. For years I was where you are now and instead of going mad I eventually made a choice. For me, deleting the God thing gave me a much clearer answer of why the universe is here, what I was, and how I wanted to act toward all living things.
For others, God is the answer for the same things I just mentioned and that's fine but you seem to be more like me. I don't know you, but that's my guess.

.....and I have given mine none...

And that's the problem. Choose. Then, if you work, do some volunteer stuff after work. Get into a church group. Talk to a priest. Talk to us. Get a girlfriend. Find a hobby. Go scuba diving. Go jogging or biking. God, I wish I could help you.

Bettina

Exactly where did I say that I dislike this existence of mine? I happen to enjoy it at times, and even when I don't I still keep an objective outlook.

Jeff, I think you have the same outlook I had not too long ago. I don't agree with the whole "purpose" thing anymore. Why should one need a reason to exist? Why should one need a reason for anything? You may as well just say "Because I say so" or "I feel like it". Makes no difference either way.

Thorne, I don't expect you to say anything other than what you already have because, as most religious people, you've made up your mind and no one can change it. You believe what you want to believe, and you know what? That's fine. I'm not you, so I don't care. I've made up my mind as well, however. Just thought you should know.

Will Robinson wrote:You need to stop looking for so many answers and find a girlfriend because it's not healthy to think all that angst and insecurity is caused by sources beyond your reach, it needs a face and it might as well be a pretty one on top of a killer body...

What's wrong with learning? I'm not looking for answers, per se, just insight. I'm definitely not looking for a girlfriend, though. I don't have the time or the interest. As far as what you apparently perceive as angst and insecurity goes, I am neither angsty nor insecure. Security implies a presence other than oneself, be it personified or objectified. I see no reason to believe there is either.

Ford... well,

You are ripe for a religious epiphany MD-1118 any minute now I expect to hear that you have been born again. In a world filled with beauty and wonder you lie awake at night worried about what it all means.

I never worry anymore. Why should I? I don't particularly care about anything, save that which has my attention for the moment. Once I lose interest in it, I stop caring. I wonder why some people find it fulfilling to attack that which they feel does not apply to them. Insecurity, perhaps?

In all fairness I find most religions and belief systems to be decent, but unprovable and impractical. Other than that, whatever floats your boat. I really don't care.

It's nice to be an agnostic, isn't it. You tend to be more open to new ideas and possibilities. Religion is just too structured, rigid and incomplete to explain everything. It doesn't allow one to second guess or question anything, let alone your existence, and you'll never learn new concepts that way. Keep right on dreaming.

So you find fulfillment and security through apathy--your justification for a shallow existence. Would it penetrate your shield of indifference if I told you that from where I'm sitting it's being lazy and cowardly?

Nothing matters other than what you're concerning yourself with right now? That is a meaningless existence. You need to wake up or you'll waste your life with this ridiculous psychosis.

And there's nothing wrong with contemplating the nature of reality, that in itself isn't nuts. But that fact that you think you've already got it all figured out, having only gone this far, is just stupid. No offense, but you're a hack. Exploring is healthy. Exploring in isolation is insanity.

MD-1118 wrote:... you've made up your mind and no one can change it.

What an unoriginal cop-out. Don't confuse difficulty with impossibility. I'm a very honest and open-minded person, but I didn't get my convictions untried from a crackerjack box.

tunnelcat wrote:It's nice to be an agnostic, isn't it. You tend to be more open to new ideas and possibilities. Religion is just too structured, rigid and incomplete to explain everything. It doesn't allow one to second guess or question anything, let alone your existence, and you'll never learn new concepts that way. Keep right on dreaming.

That’s a very unfair blanket accusation of religion, my religion for example is always looking for further expression of the philosophies of life and such.

TechPro wrote:Existential Blues ...

LMAO!!!!

Thanks Tech! hahahaha.. I haven't heard that in over 25 years! What a classic. My humanities teacher in HS loved it.

MD-1118 wrote:Exactly where did I say that I dislike this existence of mine?

This part...

Am I at peace? One might say so. Then again, every night I go through hell as my nonexistent emotions come rushing back with a vengeance in every dream I have, regardless of the content. It's a curious combination of tranquility and vapidity, of resignation and apathy. No, I don't miss my old life... but that doesn't mean that this one is any better.

Maybe I read way too much into what you were trying to convey. Anyway, I would take the advice from the other posters.

Bee

Spidey wrote:That’s a very unfair blanket accusation of religion, my religion for example is always looking for further expression of the philosophies of life and such.

How flexible is it? For example, does your religion believe the in the Bible as a factual statement of history or is it open to interpretation or even debunking? Would it accept the reality of no God if we were to find out somehow that HE didn't even exist? Most religions have very firm sets of beliefs and doctrine and they don't seem to like to change or question them. I guess my blanket statement only really applies to the large mainstream religions, at least in my mind. There are many others out there that are much more philosophical about life and existence. But if you're in a better position to correct me, since I'm not a member of any organized religion, be my guest. I'm just going by what I see in the world with religion and politics today.

Well, yes I suppose your statement applies to a lot of mainstream religions, none of which I belong to. The religion I belong to goes by the basic premise of religion in the first place, that is to say, the search for the meaning of life, is there a god, purpose in life etc, which is all an ongoing thing. And “nothing” is written in stone.

So what some of you are saying is that you are prepared to believe anything?

Duper wrote:So what some of you are saying is that you are prepared to believe anything?

Sort of. In believing nothing, anything becomes possible.

Spidey wrote:Well, yes I suppose your statement applies to a lot of mainstream religions, none of which I belong to. The religion I belong to goes by the basic premise of religion in the first place, that is to say, the search for the meaning of life, is there a god, purpose in life etc, which is all an ongoing thing. And “nothing” is written in stone.

I know this was directed at Tunnelcat, but I thought I would raise a question regarding the "basic premise of religion" you mentioned. Why do we need a reason and a purpose for everything? Isn't it possible that some things have no purpose or reason? These questions themselves are rhetorical, of course. I really don't need a reason for why people need reasons. I am curious, though. Has anyone ever really questioned anything? I mean, anything it would be preposterous or unthinkable to question? If not, what were their reasons? Again, rhetorical, but if anyone would like to share their thoughts I'd be more than willing to listen.

Bets, apathy does not imply unhappiness, merely indifference. I don't hate my life, but I don't love it either.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:So you find fulfillment and security through apathy--your justification for a shallow existence. Would it penetrate your shield of indifference if I told you that from where I'm sitting it's being lazy and cowardly?

Nothing matters other than what you're concerning yourself with right now? That is a meaningless existence. You need to wake up or you'll waste your life with this ridiculous psychosis.

And there's nothing wrong with contemplating the nature of reality, that in itself isn't nuts. But that fact that you think you've already got it all figured out, having only gone this far, is just stupid. No offense, but you're a hack. Exploring is healthy. Exploring in isolation is insanity.

Who said I already have it all figured out? If you'll read the original post, I said I believe it to be so. I don't know anything concrete, other than the fact that I exist. Everything else is conjecture. You can believe what you want, and so can I. I just happen to have radically different beliefs.

My "shield of indifference" would probably be better described as "objective goggles". I know I voice thoughts elsewhere on foreign policies and the state of our nation, but truth be told I don't care what happens to anyone or anything, including myself. If I were to die tomorrow, I would have no regrets, and that would be that. I'd either cease to exist or I would continue to exist. Either way, I don't care. My personified opinions are merely a skeptical glance on what may or may not exist, or even matter. Today's value of the ruble has absolutely no effect on me whatsoever, and neither does the mosquito that bit me an hour ago. How much of it really matters? I mean, so we might go to war again. So what? So your grandmother died. So what? So my grandmother died. So what? It really doesn't have anything to do with me, and I really don't care.

Per the remark I made as to the unchanging state of your mind, allow me to clarify. I have yet to meet a Christian who truly believes what he says, who will honestly and objectively consider even the possibility that their God does not exist, that Jesus Christ did not die for them and their sins. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just saying. I haven't met a truly objective Christian yet. If I'm wrong about you, correct me and I will retract that statement. Otherwise, it stands.

Bottom line, once more, this thread is something I find quite curious and interesting, but has no direct bearing on my life. Regardless of what is said here, it won't have an impact on me... at least, I don't believe it will.

Just a quick response. (ha ha)

If a person is truly Christian they will not be \"truly objective.\" or at least not in the way you want them to be. For those of us who really seek after Christ, our lives have been changed. There is no way to explain that in a couple of lines of text. Not changed in the way of making you into something you're not, but changed in the way of being made complete. It's kinda like walking around all your life missing one arm and then one day you are given the other. (it's a poor analogy but the best I can do right now). The thought of being \"changed\" used to scare me to death when I was younger. I grew up in church, but when it happened, it was like someone had pulled sheers away from the window and I could see everything more clearly.

Sort of. In believing nothing, anything becomes possible.

This is really soft-minded and cannibalistic. In so believing thus, you are willing to accept most anything that seems reasonable. The problem with that is that eventually, you begin to bend to things that you would not have in the past. Things that can be dangerous. If not to others, then eventually to yourself. Good greif, look at the Bogwan, Jonestown, those alien guys in California, David Coresh and his gang. These were all intelligent folks that began by believing one little \"free thinking idea\" after another. Do I think that you will wind up in a situation like that? Most likely no. I would certainly hope not. But as examples, this is where \"being open minded\" could lead. I said cannibalistic not as a jab, but because ideology like that can turn on itself. I don't have any good examples, but I have seen it.

What I have is real. It is not a list of rights and wrongs or a set or rules. I gave up on church rules and regulations when I was 11. I read a book called \"How to be Christian without being Religious.\" It changed my life then and I sidestepped most silly traditions and doctrines that were/are useless. I believe indoctrination is a good thing. It how I learned my math, to tie my shoes and brush my teeth. There are ideas within Christianity that are essential for life and freedom.

What I have is a relationship; not a set of rules.

Apathy implies depression. You're just used to it. Trust me, I know. I dealt with depression a better part of my life. Apathy is the light hum of depression when it's not screaming in your ear threatening to cave in your world. Sometimes people never see that side of depression. Many just have it as that hum or a nagging itch that just never quite goes away. Or it's like the tenitous i have. Some days I hear the ringing in my ears and other days I don't unless I stop and thing about it. But it's always there.

Apathy is not depression. It's not even related to depression.

I get where you're coming from with the cannibalistic comment. Kind of like me pondering nonexistence. =/

BTW Duper, I grew up in church as well. I'm a PK, as it so happens. There was a time when I really and truly believed I was saved. I understand what you're saying about true Christians not being able to be objective. I was just explaining to Thorne why I said what I said.

While it is true that I could end up believing almost anything, I think I've retained enough of my humanity (how ironic) that I won't go doing anything crazy or weird. Oh wait... I mean crazier or weirder than what I'm already doing.

I'll maintain my disagreement on the apathy as I'm not referring to an entirely clinical definition.

and forgive me but \"PK\"? I'm not catching it. pm it to me if you wish.

Thanks and good response. I reread what I wrote and found it a bit harsh. That wasn't my intent. I got interrupted 3 times while while typing it out.

MD-1118, I don’t think we “need” to know “why we exist” and such, but I do think it’s a natural human desire to want to understand such things. And we might just exist for no reason, my belief system acounts for this possibility. And if we do exist for no reason then as you said, it’s up to us to define a purpose.

PK == Pastor's Kid

Herculosis wrote:PK == Pastor's Kid

ahhhh thank you!

Sorry Duper, I made an assumption that everybody knew what a PK was. I've lived in the Bible Belt most of my life (for those who don't know, it's pretty much south of Tennessee and east of Alabama, to my knowledge) and as such I get lots of wonderful opportunities to logically discuss life, the universe and everything with understanding, caring and completely objective Christians. Heavy sarcasm intended.

I try not to blanket entire religions into one stereotype, but it's kind of hard not to when they do it for me. Christianity left a bad taste in my mouth. Not the people, most of the ones around here are ignorant because they choose to be. That goes back to the whole \"not being truly objective\" thing. I don't even have a problem with it. What I do have a problem with is when supposedly kind and compassionate people act like tards and evince their ignorance and intolerance in unpleasant manners. Case in point:

I live right next to the Baptist College of Florida. Yay me. =/ It's not so bad, but I digress. A friend of mine asked me to go to church with him there a while back. It was a Wednesday, and I had nothing else to do, so I said sure. Now at the time, I was a Wiccan. I also happened to be too old, I guess, because they said they didn't have a class for my age group. As a result, me and two or three other guys ended up in a different room with the youth director playing pool. Everything seemed alright, and we were talking about lots of things when he asked us if we were saved. Only one other guy said no, and I of course said that I used to believe that I was saved, but I was a Wiccan instead. We talked about that some, and the guy seemed remarkedly unbiased, which truly surprised me. Anywho, church ended and we all went home.

The very next Wednesday my friend asked me to go again, and I said sure because I liked the youth director and wanted to talk to him again. I'd never actually met a Christian like him, and it interested me. At any rate, as soon as I got there this fat lard arse chick told me I wasn't allowed there anymore. I couldn't go anywhere though because no one was home at my house and I didn't have a key. So, I ended up standing under a tree on the side of the road in late fall in the wind and pouring rain for nearly two hours, waiting for my friend's grandmother to come pick us up. I even got in trouble with the college for standing in the pouring rain because the tree was on their property. It was awful, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't care at that time. I hated them.

Well, I went back with someone else this past Wednesday, and I told him I wasn't allowed over there but that I would walk him because we were talking and such. As soon as we got there, I mean, literally within thirty seconds of us stopping in front of the church, that same fat lard arse girl comes wobbling out and says, \"You're not allowed here, you know that, so why are you here?\" I replied, \"I was trying to be Christlike and walk with my friend (in the rain AGAIN, I might add). I'm not staying, why would I want to do that?\" She didn't even hear me. It's a shame. Not really, but I do hate to waste sarcasm on people who are too dim to get it.

Anyway, that put a bad taste in my mouth for Christianity. I know not every Christian is like that... in fact, Thorne, I'll bet you're a pretty damn decent Christian. I just don't care for them in general because most happen to be hypocrites and arseholes. Then again, that's most of the world in general. Doesn't really matter, though. I'm starting to ramble so I'll shut up.

MD-1118 wrote:Bets, apathy does not imply unhappiness, merely indifference. I don't hate my life, but I don't love it either.

My "shield of indifference" would probably be better described as "objective goggles". I know I voice thoughts elsewhere on foreign policies and the state of our nation, but truth be told I don't care what happens to anyone or anything, including myself. If I were to die tomorrow, I would have no regrets, and that would be that. I'd either cease to exist or I would continue to exist. Either way, I don't care. My personified opinions are merely a skeptical glance on what may or may not exist, or even matter. Today's value of the ruble has absolutely no effect on me whatsoever, and neither does the mosquito that bit me an hour ago. How much of it really matters? I mean, so we might go to war again. So what? So your grandmother died. So what? So my grandmother died. So what? It really doesn't have anything to do with me, and I really don't care.

Whether you like it or not, you sound depressed to me. Indifference, apathy, no love of life are all hallmarks of depression. But I'm not saying you should do something about it. If you can exist in that state of mind, it's better than taking anti-depressant drugs. They just mess-up, muddle and rewire your brain, turning you into a zombie. I know this from my own experience. They were also a royal pain to get off of.

I'm to the point that the world is so f**ked up now and as I'm getting older, I don't really care anymore for whatever the outcome is. Humanity is going to self-destruct on it's present course anyway, nothing I do or say will change that. So my attitude is that I'm just going to bump along and live life as best I can, be with what's left of my family and seek more knowledge to keep my brain from atrophying. Wondering why we even exist at all is a good question. We won't know if there's more to ourselves than just a flash in the pan until we die I guess. There's either something or nothing. Mainstream religion just doesn't cut it for me either. Too many loose ends conveniently tied up with unprovable hypotheses bound by social doctrine.

Spidey, I'm sorry I lumped all religions in with the mainstreams ones in my rant. You sound more enlightened than most and are getting some benefit from it.

Whether I like it or not bears absolutely no relation to the subject. I suppose I never made a connection between depression and apathy because I've already made a connection between depression and sadness. Apathy, as a total lack of emotion, implies an absence of depression to me. How you see it is of course up to you, and I won't try to change your mind. I will say that I agree with most of what you just said, concerning humanity, religion, and the anti-depressants. Now I must go, as Smallville is on and I forgot what I was going to say next. Take no offense from what I say, it isn't personal.