DescentBB

I've recently read quite a bit on wiki and NewAdvent about predestination. I am a big free will buff (insofar as I hold that people choose for themselves and they are responsible for their choices) and see what I read, on the face of it, to be ugly, irreligious nonsense that no one could possibly believe without being a nihilist. I am aware that I'm misinterpreting it horribly since virtually everyone I know believes in good and evil.

So, I'm just curious: how exactly do all of you Christians believe in predestination? I mean, how do you live with that doctrine? The sort of answer I'm looking for is not really theological or philosophical in nature; I am more interested in things like \"I like to think that He's got everything planned and it'll turn out ok\" etc.

Intersting you should ask, I posted on the same thing a while back.

HERE

I posted a link to an audio. It's a message by R.C. Sproul, a Christian apologist, that address this very issue.

I by no means to kill the thread. That was back in April. Listen to the link if you'd like. I think I'll give it a go again tomorrow.

Samuel Dravis wrote:So, I'm just curious: how exactly do all of you Christians believe in predestination?

Just to be clear, there is a range of beliefs within Christianity on predestination vs. free-will. Predestination (or determinism, more generally) has been a highly debated topic by theologians since the beginning of the Christian church; it's by no means a ubiquitous belief.

I personally believe in a God-given free will, some other Christians I know believe firmly in absolute predestination, and there are other belief sets as well (e.g. Lothar and Drakona call their perspective something like "determinist free will", as I recall).

I love talking about this subject, and wish I had more time to do so.

Duper, I couldn't find the audio you linked to.

Foil wrote:Just to be clear, there is a range of beliefs within Christianity on predestination vs. free-will. Predestination (or determinism, more generally) has been a highly debated topic by theologians since the beginning of the Christian church; it's by no means a ubiquitous belief.

I personally believe in a God-given free will, some other Christians I know believe firmly in absolute predestination, and there are other belief sets as well (e.g. Lothar and Drakona call their perspective something like "determinist free will", as I recall).

Oh, I'm aware of that. I already don't think that "believing in predestination" necessarily means believing in determinism. For example, a Calvinist I know talks about right and wrong and responsibility in the same way I do. At the very most, while he may assent to some words that appear to be deterministic in nature, he doesn't use them in a deterministic way (i.e. he's not a nihilist).

I'm not too worried about him, and was just curious at the manner of other people's belief in it. I don't think for a moment that most Christians are fatalistic in the way I imagine from reading those pages, so I suppose they must deal with it in a broadly similar way to my friend.

I was just so amazed to see something so apparently contradictory with, well, everything else Christianity tries to teach was actually part of it. I had known that Calvinists believed something like it, but the NewAdvent (Catholic) page was definitely a surprise. Usually I don't see apparent contradictions like that; most of them have been weeded out in the past milennia or two.

Well nuts, the link is dead. It's not in an available archive so, I'll take some notes and synopsizes it here. (I burned it to a CD for my wife to listen to) so I'll post tomorrow on it.

sorry about that. I'd post for just myself, but I need to get my head around this topic a bit better myself. thanks for bringing it up again.

R.C. Sproul is at this site. (Ligonier Ministries) He is a Calvinist btw.

Foil wrote:I love talking about this subject, and wish I had more time to do so.

Yeah, interesting topic, REALLY short on time (just got a new job). BUT, luckily, I happen to have already worked out MY particular view on predestination on another forum. So here it is.

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Predestination is a topic that has confused Christians for ages. As Peter said:

2 Pe 3:15-16 ...even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood...

So what did Paul say about predestination?

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

So, sounds kinda like we don't get any say in the matter, right? What exactly did he mean when he said we were chosen and predestined? Does that mean some were chosen to be lost?

Paul's statements on predestination are best understood in the context of all the other texts on the same topic. For example:

1 Ti 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Here, Paul himself clearly states that God wants EVERYONE to be saved.

We also have Peter saying:
2 Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

And in the old testament:
Eze 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’

And to top it all off, the words of Christ Himself:
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

So how are we to interpret this concept of predestination that Paul speaks about?

The word predestination, that Paul uses is the Greek verb proorizo which means, roughly, "to decide beforehand". What was decided beforehand, before even the foundations of the world?

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

EVERYONE was predestined to be saved. Every single person on earth who ever lived, or ever WILL live, was guaranteed salvation in the blood of Jesus Christ. All of them.

BUT, and this may be the most amazing mystery in the universe, God gave man free will and allows us to REJECT the salvation he has predestined us for.

Jn 3:17-18 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Note again Paul's own words:

1 Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God is the Saviour of ALL men, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM. But not all accept, that is why he is SPECIALLY Saviour of those who Believe.

God offers salvation to every one of us. We are all chosen, elected, and predestined to spend eternity with our Lord and Saviour. The only thing that can keep us from it, is our own choice.

Choose life.