DescentBB

So, I'm TRYING to learn descent with keyboard and mouse. I thought stunk with a joystick, but I REALLY stink with a keyboard and mouse.

Anyway, So I'm dreaming of what the PERFECT descent controller would be:

Imagine a small device that fits into one hand. probably grip shaped, like a brass knuckles. It operates on a principle similar to the wii controller, but I don't know if infrared would really work for this. Anyway, the grip must send out two horizontal signals and two vertical signals. You'll probably have to have a receiver on the ceiling as well as the wall.

Now then, the position of the controller will be detectable with 6 degrees of freedom, including twist. hold the device comfortably in your hand, pick a \"zero\" spot and push a button to initiate control.

Move your hand slightly up or down, left or right, forward or back, or any combination, and your ship moves in that direction. Back to the center point and it stops.

TWIST your hand in any direction, and the ship TURNS in the same direction.

The controller could have five buttons, one for each finger and thumb.

This lets you control ALL of the motion of you ship with one hand. And probably most of your standard functions with the buttons on that hand. Furthermore, the off hand is left free to use the keyboard for headlights, weapon selection, flares, etc.

Technology is probably not quite there yet, but we are getting closer. <sigh>

I think similar controllers to what you described have existed, possibly in combination with 3D, sterescopic goggles. Or maybe they were just prototypes, don't remember.

you could try looking for 3D CAD/presentation controllers. prepare for prices higher than your average game controller.

malaksBane wrote:I think similar controllers to what you described have existed, possibly in combination with 3D, sterescopic goggles.

Well, stereoscopic displays are coming along, so perhaps we'll have BOTH in time for Descent 4. Due out in, what, 2030?

Floyd wrote:3D CAD/presentation controllers

I'll do some googling, thanks!

Floyd wrote:prepare for prices higher than your average game controller

Oh yeah, I figured THAT. That's why it's just a DREAM controller.

My dream controller would consist of the exact same system that I used to play Descent, only with a joystick gimble that was about 1000 times more smooth and precise.

This looks interesting:

Beware tho, 3DC controllers are not HID conform, ie. you need a driver to support using it w/ anything (at least that's what 3DC told me. Hence I never got one )

i have the space navigator. Grendel is right, the driver doesn't let you freely configure what you want (at least the version from 2006 i got). the control is some kind of CAD standard interface. i haven't tried to use it for descent yet, though.
but for the versatile enthusiast, this might come in handy: http://www.3dconnexion.com/support/sdk.php

Spidey wrote:My dream controller would consist of the exact same system that I used to play Descent, only with a joystick gimble that was about 1000 times more smooth and precise.

i guess you could multiply the cost of your current joystick by that factor for the new one with these improvements

I was thinking the ultimate controller would be some sort of mouse-joystick/keyboard hybrid. Buttons for all motions for the instant and full power responsiveness from a keyboard when you want it, but also able to do slow gradual and precise motions like a mouse, with the range and freedom of a joystick. Also since there is a lot to do, splitting the load and having a couple foot pedals would probably help.

The best I could think up would be similar to a couple joysticks, only oriented flat/level like a mouse, with directional hats that override the stick for most movements (hat style switches allow movement in any direction, but prevent conflicts like trying to go forward and backward at the same time). I would make the total range of motion of the controller fairly small and put some decent magnets in them to hold them down so it would be less likely to slide around the desk and to cut down on wear and tear for both the controller and the user. Its also likely I would make the response from the sticks non linear to improve precision at the low end (you would be using the instant response keys for faster twitch movements anyway). Also the buttons and hats would all have to have pretty tight motions to trigger and be very light to pull to reduce fatigue. Whatever button was assigned to forward would also activate the afterburner with a slightly more stiff second click.

It would have to be set up so your fingers rest on all important functions and you never have to move your hands or fingers to accomplish something needed in/for combat. It would probably be necessary to have a primary set of buttons that all your fingers rest on by default when you hold the controller for all major functions and a secondary set of buttons just beyond those that you can reach where you can assign functions like markers, taunts, headlights and weapon slots/cycles. Probably best to keep the weapon cycles as secondary keys to the fire buttons for example since you can't cycle weapons and fire at the same time it would make sense to let them conflict.

The main thing is rather than trying to put everything on one hand, you should split the burden over both hands, and potentially both feet as well, there is a lot going on in 6dof that makes controls more complicated than one hand can manage while maintaining accuracy. I would look at which type of movement is best suited to be controlled by which hand and divide them based off that and which hand is dominant.

Of course the main thing I think would be wrong with a controller set up like that is it would be far harder to learn than a more simple keyboard/mouse or keyboard/joystick combination, but if someone actually managed to properly design and master controls like that, it could definitely give them an edge over equally skilled players.

What a bunch of :words:, for something I almost never play anymore...

Krom wrote:...
magnets
...

i don't know about you, but i have a wooden desk. wood magnets are not yet available where i buy my stuff
how about a clamp like wheels have?

Krom wrote:...
Its also likely I would make the response from the sticks non linear to improve precision at the low end (you would be using the instant response keys for faster twitch movements anyway).
...

my thrustmaster wheel driver features customizable transfer functions to adjust the response as you like. that would be the most appropriate for such a new controller, too, instead of hard building it into it (the driver computes a non-linearity 'y' along the linear physical movement 'x' (so y=f(x))). this function is specified via sliders in a diagram.
i was already thinking about this myself, back in 2001 when i switched to joystick, but driver programming is not my cup of tea.

Whatever happened to those nintendo glove controllers?

oooo! That SpaceNavigator looks great! Gotta go on my consideration list.

Floyd wrote: i haven't tried to use it for descent yet, though.

If you do, let us know how it works out!

Krom wrote:The main thing is rather than trying to put everything on one hand, you should split the burden over both hands,

Yeah, I was considering a double joystick setup. Use one joystick for twists. Use the other for thrust. The difficulty is that the twists are all intuitive (just move the joystick the direction you want the ship to turn). BUT, the thrust are not. Obviously the y axis is forwards backwards, by x or z either one could be left right, and neither fits up/down. Probably best would be, as you said, a combination of joysticks and pedals.

as luck would have it, look what i've found: http://www.3dconnexion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=336


i'll give it a try some time. let's just hope that it supports xp.

Nice find ! But according to the last few pages in that thread the software seems to be unstable Shame on Logitech for not supporting it natively.

Edit: ah, source code on page 17

Edit2: oh, the SpaceNavigator PE is only $59...

Well, I rarely miss with a joystick (or mouse), so why would a different controller give an advantage?

There's logic for ya. The perfect Descent controller would be more than just aiming, anyway.

That SpaceNavigator strikes me as being something more expensive for hard-core D3ers to break. That one with the large, elaborate base looks pretty neat all the same.

I never missed with any of my shots, while playing Descent……….








The SOB always moved out of the way.

I have an unhealthy obsession with my input devices.

I toyed with the idea of rolling my own controller. Here's what I would want:

1) Precise and smooth turning control that allows both easy combo of axes and good separation of axes
2) Lightning fast fwd/back/left/right/up/down control with easy combo and good separation of axes
3) At least two triggers
4) Easy to use afterburner key
5) 12+ keys for weapon and view selection


The standard joystick and keyboard does all of the above very well, once you master it, but the keyboard hand is *busy*, and I've never found it intuitive.

The SN Looks a lot like the Cyberman 2, which I know a little about. Should be very intuitive to use, but I'd wager it's a bit difficult to master. Having all the axes in one hand is fun, but learning to control them all precisely is *hard*.

I did a lot of research when I had another bout of serious Descent withdrawals about a year ago, and nothing on the market yet has come close what I would consider a dream controller.

In the end, I went back to what I had done 3 years prior, which was to re-learn Descent using a dual controller method, aka using both a joystick and mouse at the same time. Nothing else so far has come close to the level of precision and control I can achieve using that approach, and is a great deal cheaper than some of the outlandish and money-intensive alternatives. Your mileage will vary, I'm sure, but having the mouse handle 2 axes that most directly affect your aim (turn up/down/left/right) and the joystick handle all the rest of the axes is full of win. You can do it all and nothing gets sacrificed.

I'm desperately hoping that the controller configuration for Jumpgate Evolution will allow for this. If it does, I'm gonna be pwning face like a kid again. ;p ...so sayeth the old man.

This does a pretty good job so far.