DescentBB

It marks a major concession by the Pakistani government in its attempt to hold off Taliban militants who have terrorized the region with beheadings, kidnappings, and the destruction of girls' schools.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... newssearch

The disease of women continues...

Bee

And your biggest concern here is oppression of women???

VonVulcan wrote:And your biggest concern here is oppression of women???

No. It's just the epicenter of my hatred for the Taliban which then spreads out to encompass all of Islam. I'm also not happy with my president wanting to talk peace when I want them dead.

Bee

make up your mind Bee, you had a President that tried to do that according to many on this forum and you didnt like him Either.

Look, a budding security mom.

CUDA wrote:make up your mind Bee, you had a President that tried to do that according to many on this forum and you didnt like him Either.

Cuda, I didn't like president Bush for a lot of reasons (PM me if you want the list) but never his hatred for the Taliban. Since he's gone I had to make my choice between Obama and a creationist. I'm glad I voted for Obama even though I may not agree with him on the Taliban. God, I hate them.

Bee

Christ said: \"Love your enemies\".

That doesn't mean accept what they do as OK. ...but you don't claim to be a Christian.

Also, Obama's foreign policy shouldn't be a disappointment of a shock. He's doing just as he said. I wonder what would have happened if we would have had a democratic President in office during 9/11.

By Obama's decision to close Guantanamo, stop the military tribunal of a admitted mastermind of the USS Cole bombing and holding his first televised news conference on a all Arab news station we can see the new appeasement policy forming towards the parking lot beheaders.

While Bet looked at McCains running mate as the defacto presidential candidate, I would still rather have a creationist with cajones than what we have in office now. The left got what they wanted, now they have to see if they can live with it.

It's already here Bettina:

http://www.buffalonews.com/494/story/578644.html

While I don't see \"honor killing\" being accepted ever- the \"culture\" of islam is already here.

The sad part TB, is the Husband was trying to promote Muslims as not being the scary guys that are oft portrayed in the news. I guess we can safely assume all male Muslims are really Queen of Hearts...at heart.

Bet51987 wrote:

VonVulcan wrote:And your biggest concern here is oppression of women???

No. It's just the epicenter of my hatred for the Taliban which then spreads out to encompass all of Islam. I'm also not happy with my president wanting to talk peace when I want them dead.

Bee

Bett, do you ever read what you post? How can you make such a vile statement and condemn an entire religion over the actions of essentially a breakaway cult? Your supposed to be religious right? If this is what your religion teaches then you are no better than the Taliban, really look at what you posted. Do you practice what you preach or are you one of those two faced hypocritical Christians I keep meeting? Whats wrong with peace? You talk religion and go to church but your actions speak quite differently, shame on you. Your brain is truly addled from propaganda and ignorance. Have you ever met someone who practices true Islam and talked with them or tried to understand it? I highly doubt it. Why don't you be a good little robot and pick up a gun and go over there to wipe out an entire religion like you say you want to do. Such a noble cause Bett.

Can, she's prefessed to be an athiest, not Christian. (She's mad at him too. )

Bet51987 wrote:Since he's gone I had to make my choice between Obama and a creationist.
Bee

you really don't know how to think for yourself do you?

Obama DID NOT run against Palin, the left wanted you to think he did but alas that's not the TRUTH. and you bought it hook line and sinker. he Actually ran against Sen John McCain,:shock: now while I know you weren't aware of this FACT it is what actually happened. Here's a little bit of the mans back round, he was a decorated war hero having fought in a Vietnam and probably would be going after the Taliban harder than Bush did. but since you didn't know that he was in the election I guess that's why you didn't Vote for him

Kids today are proof positive that propaganda works.
They are so tied into to media and advertising that they pretty well buy everything that's fed to them. I remember Vietnam and seeing the TV and reading the news articles of John McCain, and admire him for what he endured, but I did not agree with the War itself.

When I was small I did... I raised in the fear and hate atmosphere of the Cold War and after a while when I was 5-7 years old I saw some of the older boys come back from Vietnam, I said some because some died there too. The ones that did come back were changed forever and if any tales did come up many stopped at points and you could sense the revulsion, sorrow, and fear washing over them, many couldn't continue. It was then I realized that War wasn't such a cool thing anymore. I hung with the hippies and gear-heads and listened to their music, made go-karts, played with electronics and did my own thing. I was raised by a bigoted Father but I refused to buy into the hate... hate is taught to children and is learned.

Bettina I took you for a more intelligent young woman and admired your scientific prowess and drive to learn. You have however closed off your mind to certain subjects and have not taken the time to learn or understand other points of view. I'm not arguing here I am stating a fact. Condemning a whole religion that has nothing to do with the Taliban and in fact denounces violence many times in its teachings, shows me that you did not take any time to learn but spout rhetoric and propaganda. Killing because you hate someones religion shows me you have some serious issues to overcome. I am not trying to be antagonistic but talk about narrow minded.

CUDA:
If McCain/Palin were in power I think the USA would have been bombing nuclear sites in North Korea by now.

CUDA wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:Since he's gone I had to make my choice between Obama and a creationist.
Bee

you really don't know how to think for yourself do you?

Obama DID NOT run against Palin, the left wanted you to think he did but alas that's not the TRUTH. and you bought it hook line and sinker. he Actually ran against Sen John McCain,:shock: now while I know you weren't aware of this FACT it is what actually happened. Here's a little bit of the mans back round, he was a decorated war hero having fought in a Vietnam and probably would be going after the Taliban harder than Bush did. but since you didn't know that he was in the election I guess that's why you didn't Vote for him

McCain is a creationist, I remember that when asked in the Primary Debates, no one (except maybe Ron Paul) believed in evolution.

Males just don't get it when it comes to religious oppression of women (yes, isn't it always based on some religious reason or another). The Taliban don't have a monopoly on the downright evil treatment of women either. A lot of other religions and societies also see women as lesser beings or even property. Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and even Christianity are all guilty of some form of draconian repression/ discrimination of women. Some of it is just more subtle or blatant than others.

But here's a fine example of male treatment of women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitriolage

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3097469.stm

@Canuck... First, I don't know whether or not there is a \"God\" of some type but I've denied the existance of the bible God since I was 12. (I turned 21 this past Sunday BTW) so in that respect I'm not a Christian. However, I like the Christian way of life so I emulate it. Second, Christianity has Christ at it's core while Islam has Muhammad at it's core. Research both men and you will find which one was the true man of peace. Add to that the women issue and you will understand why I hate Islam so much.

@Duper... There is no one there to be mad at. I only honor the ordinary but exceptional person that thought he was dying for me like I would a soldier.

@Cuda... Sarah Palin's answers to hard questions given during interviews, her hate filled, hate inducing, \"pallin around with terrorists\" speeches, and her position on issues that I hold dear to my heart showed me she was neither moral or intelligent and, because of McCain's age and medical background, had a higher probability to become president. That's why I considered the VP just as important when I voted. Later on it became clear to almost everyone that she was becoming the stronger member of the McCain/Palin ticket and America didn't need another baracuda or set of cowboys.

Bee

tunnelcat wrote:Males just don't get it when it comes to religious oppression of women

Nice little blanket statement there tc…

she's a woman how can she understand how Men think

CUDA wrote:she's a woman how can she understand how Men think

Oh now look what you have done. Notice how you Capitalized MEN but didn't capitalize she... You sir are a sexist.

/me scrambles for cover.

So have we heard a lot of Muslim organizations condemning the women s beheading?

Hopefully with the 50% increase in troops in Afghanistan, we can eliminate the Taliban in all of Afghanistan. At that point we could pressure the Pakistanis to either fight the Taliban, or for us to do it ourselves.

I hope that President Obama fufills his promise.

woodchip wrote:So have we heard a lot of Muslim organizations condemning the women s beheading?

Did you look ?

Why would that be of interest anyway ? It's not the first time a husband killed a wife (or vice versa) in the US.

They do all the time Grendel- though they don't usually behead their wives as is done in \"honor killing\" tradition.

http://pajamasmedia.com/phyllischesler/ ... -part-two/

Most murders are not committed with such a long history of \"cultural tradition\" as are honor killings.

So I suppose you could say that her murder had a \"mitigating\" circumstance. It was a culturally accepted norm for Mr. Hassan- so he shouldn't be punished harshly. After all, we should be culturally sensitive for our diversity.

Duper wrote:

LOL @ Duper's smilie.

Grendel wrote:

woodchip wrote:So have we heard a lot of Muslim organizations condemning the women s beheading?

Did you look ?

Why would that be of interest anyway ? It's not the first time a husband killed a wife (or vice versa) in the US.

While it is not the first time a husband has killed his wife, in this instance it was by a husband who was trying to promote Islam as a religion not to be afraid of. He sure impressed me. Think I'll run down to the nearest mosque and sign up.

And no, I haven't looked for a condemnation story buried in some news blog. I have not seen anything in the mainstream news programs. Have you?

You have to understand the difference between passionate religious honor killings and some moron getting wasted and finding his wife in bed with another man and shooting them both...or do you...

Bett said;
@Canuck... First, I don't know whether or not there is a \"God\" of some type but I've denied the existance of the bible God since I was 12. (I turned 21 this past Sunday BTW) so in that respect I'm not a Christian.

@Bettina;
I was allowed to attend church as long as I wanted and did so until I was about seven or eight when I too saw the \"flip side\" of religion. I know we cannot be the only planet supporting life and creatures in this Universe. Also as a species we are relatively new... imagine a society millions of years older than us... to be sure there is a higher power out there, and planes of existence we know nothing about. So I believe in a higher power or entity out there. Like you I don't have to accept their exact concepts of a God. Oh and happy belated birthday Bettina! Hope it was a good day

Bett said;
However, I like the Christian way of life so I emulate it. Smile Second, Christianity has Christ at it's core while Islam has Muhammad at it's core. Research both men and you will find which one was the true man of peace.

@Bettina;
1) Whatever works for you as long as it doesn't harm me or others.
2) Trying to argue who's action figure is better two thousand plus years after the fact, gets your argument filed under the \"Nowhere Fast\" bin. I look at the time of the period and concepts inferred in the writings. Don't forget that 600 AD was a very violent time and I do recall that almost every religion I've learned about was forged in blood at some time when they began. Top that up with the Crusades, the whitey taking their oil, then Palestinian land being taken by the UN/Jew/USA, and you should get why they hate us all by now. However back to who's guy was better... I look at they were both men of their time with something important to say and pass along so its a tie with me. The teachings of the Holy Bible and The Holy Qur'an are very similar if you do take the time to read them, (I take literal translations of both books with a grain of salt due to multiple authors and over a thousand years of copying and editing) you'll also be able to find these same concepts to be in many other diverse Religions around this planet as well. To me that is what is important and is the \"Truth\".

Bett said;
Add to that the women issue and you will understand why I hate Islam so much.

I too abhor violence to Women and its one of the things that sets me off... literally, so I can understand your feelings. Blaming a Religion for it without really understanding it or the culture it comes from shows a narrow minded view. Oh and by the way doesn't the Bible start off blaming Eve for the boot out of \"Paradise\"? (/me pokes Bee with stick and runs away).

Just for the record…the US did not support the partitioning of Palestine back in 47, that was the UK’s baby. And as a matter of record the US was turning it’s back on Isreal, until Goldie made that phone call to Nixon. (what she promised is still up for debate)

And “whitey” taking their oil is a huge stretch at best.

And the “Crusades” were a response to the Arabs doing some good ole fashion stomping of their own.

@Canuck...

I've always imagined other worlds and civilizations beyond our reach. I also imagine worlds that are at the right distance from their sun, have blue skys, oceans, balmy temperatures, and beautiful foliage only to be devoid of any intelligent life. For what purpose would those planets that form, exist, and then burn out without anyone seeing them, serve the bible God. What reasoning would a God of the bible have for a universe so vast that humans can never visit anything. I know I'm rambling but looking at the big picture, the bible God makes no sense.

Now about Jesus and Mohammad. It doesn't matter who wrote the books or how many edits they've gone through. What does matter is the final content. Jesus and Mohammad were real men and both were prophets but the similarity ends abrubtly there. I've read every word of the bible and I did take the time to study parts of the Koran and where you come up with a tie, I see a chasm of differences. Mohammad was a military man who spread Islam by conquest. He assembled armies who were motivated by ideological belief and personally murdered hundreds who would not adhere to his world view. His armies killed any and all in the name of Islam and today those same insurgent armies, using the violence of Mohammad as justification, continue to torture and behead those who do not convert. If it's ok for Mohammad, it must be permitted shouldn't it?

About women.. Mohammad himself (so it is written and was practiced) said it was ok for a man to take many wives and beat them until they submit. That came right from him and those rules dictate why in Islam a women isn't equal to a man. Believe me, I don't have a narrow point of view when discussing this vile religion....and just for comparrison, how many did Jesus personally murder to spread His word?

You can poke me with a stick anytime you want and remember it was God and Eve (which is just a story to me)..not Jesus and Eve.

Bee

Spidey wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:Males just don't get it when it comes to religious oppression of women

Nice little blanket statement there tc…

CUDA wrote:she's a woman how can she understand how Men think

Neither of you guys show any inkling of having any clue about what WOMEN go through dealing with the patriarchal oppression that is usually justified by ALL the major religions. I lived through the feminist changes of the sixties and no way I'm I returning to what was the status quo before. As a women, I would be more than happy to be the breadwinner of a family and even take up arms, fight a war and kill for my country. But oh no, we are the weaker sex and that can't be allowed to happen. The wussy men running the military don't want us killed, or worse!

By the way, I do have an idea of how men think since I'm now menopausal and as a result, testosterone dominant. I've found it has altered my way of thinking and how I react to others when I get pissed off at them, IN PUBLIC even! I tend to get very aggressive to the point of physical force in cases when I shouldn't be and that's NOT always a good thing. If I had more physical strength, I'd probably beat the crap out of a few men I've known in the past and enjoy it. Bwaaaahaaaahaaaa! Men could use a little estrogen to tone it down.

Women are the weaker sex...

And just because you've got violence issues doesn't mean men need estrogen (they already get it from too many soy products, I've heard).

Back to earth. Carry on.

Hehe tunnelcat @ the estrogen... reminds me of the time I was visiting a couple and while her boyfriend was in the shower she put some crushed up birth control pills into his orange juice. I was like WTF! She casually explained that he gets too aggressive without it and it tones down his wandering eye... he didn't know she was doing it for years. As a man I had to tell him... he was wondering why he was getting breasts and emotional

Bettina;
As for other life-forms I think there are many types... you are also just thinking of Carbon based creatures and of conditions in what we can survive, what if they were Silicon-based or some other element we are not even aware of? Also there could be non-corporal beings that exist in regions of space and time we have no clue of.

Every religion has a violent past and not every follower of Islam believes in violence. I bet if Christianity was put in the same place and time as the Muslims they would fight just as hard for their religion as well. Keep in mind the Roman Empire was brutal in religious suppression and occupied their lands when Islam started, they took women to breed Roman blood in and eliminate their race and culture, an effective tool of war amongst other things. Put yourself in their shoes at their time;
http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map21rm.htm

Quit trying to condemn an entire religion by taking snippets of text written Centuries ago in a context of time and a culture which has no bearing on today. There are many versions of the teachings of the Koran and many teach that violence is not the path. I don't know which version you are quoting and suspect you have no clue how to quote the Koran properly. Also I've never compared Mohamed or Jesus or God to anyone at anytime... you are the one that is. Why is that? Can you not think in those terms? There are things in both books I do not agree with Bett, but it doesn't mean the whole text is evil. End of this argument in my books as I don't care who said or did what to who Centuries ago... Both people had something important to say.

As for women haters;
I can fight fire with fire and start whipping out woman hate from the Bible as well, tons of ammo there. Violence is also in the Bible too Bett.
I've met women haters from every race and religion Bettina. I don't like them either.

We may be 'physically' weaker, but does that justify the abhorrent treatment of women by males, under the guise of religious beliefs? All I'm saying is that men should walk a mile in a woman's shoes and look at it from our perspective.

I'm already seeing the male perspective and it ain't pretty and it's not something I'm happy about, just stuck with. At least I'll keep my bones strong, the only good trade off losing estrogen and gaining testosterone.

Besides, fat males already get a good dose of estrogen from their own fat! Where do you think those 'man boobs' come from.

Edit: Or by that friend of Canuck's method! Revenge of the girlfriend! You see, estrogen does mellow out a fellow!

Canuck wrote:As for women haters;
I can fight fire with fire and start whipping out woman hate from the Bible as well, tons of ammo there. Violence is also in the Bible too Bett.
I've met women haters from every race and religion Bettina. I don't like them either.

The Bible establishes enough of a difference (between men and women) to infuriate feminists, but I think you'd better go ahead and start enumerating this "women hate." The doctrine and history of Judaism on into Christianity clash with late, feminist notions of absolute equality, but hate is another thing altogether. For someone who has animosity towards Christianity and Islam, I though Bettina stated it pretty fairly.

One of the issues with you, Canuck, seems to be that you ascribe no real underlying substance to a religion in and of itself, and while purported followers of a religion have proven to very from strict adherence, according to their own ideas (i.e. they're unfaithful, to varying degrees, to the religion that they claim to follow), ascribing no substance, whether good or evil, is naive. Welcome to the religion of secular humanism?

tunnelcat wrote:All I'm saying is that men should walk a mile in a woman's shoes and look at it from our perspective.

You're talking about understanding? Or women wanting to be men? Because the Bible teaches one but not the other.

tunnelcat wrote:Edit: Or by that friend of Canuck's method! Revenge of the girlfriend! You see, estrogen does mellow out a fellow!

I would love to see the shock in your eyes when you became a man for a day and have to buy your own drinks for the night.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:The Bible establishes enough of a difference (between men and women) to infuriate feminists...

As a Christian and a feminist, there's nothing in the Bible which infuriates me.

As you said, Christian scripture establishes differences, both cultural and by design. What it does not do (unless misinterpreted, as the relevant scriptures commonly are), is establish a dominant/subservient order.

tunnelcat wrote:All I'm saying is that men should walk a mile in a woman's shoes and look at it from our perspective.

Agreed, and I often wish I could. But as a man, I have to admit that most of the time I can't legitimately put myself in a woman's shoes, sometimes even with someone as close as my own wife. The gap in our gender experiences is often just too vast.

SilverFJ wrote:I would love to see the shock in your eyes when you became a man for a day and have to buy your own drinks for the night.

You know, as a teenager, I used to believe that kind of logic. Yeah, I thought I had it "so hard", being a guy. Girls had it so easy, it seemed.

But then I grew up, and eventually realized that argument was absolutely bull****. I'd challenge any guy who thinks this way to do some legitimate research. Even though us men often can't empathize well, we can certainly look at the facts about violence, economics, etc.

------------

Back to the original topic, I absolutely agree with Bet and others that when it comes to issues of gender, there's not much comparision between Islam and Christianity; the Bible has been historically misinterpreted when it comes to roles in marriage, but the Koran is just brutal about violence and abuse of women. Even a brief study of women's issues in mainstream Islam points out some things many westerners wouldn't believe.

That said, I don't know that I share the same perspective on how to deal with those problems. For example, I've heard it suggested that we take down the Taliban leadership military-style, for the sake of the people currently under it's oppression. That would be great in the short-term, but I tend to think that such action would only serve to strengthen that belief system in the long run.

So, maybe as a direction for this thread (to avoid lingering gender debates):

What should we do to work against religious-based gender abuses?

I was joking and forgot to add the \" \"

haha