DescentBB

Hawaii Lawmakers Pass Bill to Create 'Islam Day'

HONOLULU -- Hawaii's state Senate overwhelmingly approved a bill Wednesday to celebrate \"Islam Day\" -- over the objections of a few lawmakers who said they didn't want to honor a religion connected to Sept. 11, 2001.

The Senate's two Republicans argued that a minority of Islamic extremists have killed many innocents in terrorist attacks.

\"I recall radical Islamists around the world cheering the horrors of 9/11. That is the day all civilized people of all religions should remember,\" said Republican Sen. Fred Hemmings to the applause of more than 100 people gathered in the Senate to oppose a separate issue -- same-sex civil unions.

The resolution to proclaim Sept. 24, 2009, as Islam Day passed the Senate on a 22-3 vote. It had previously passed the House and now goes to Republican Gov. Linda Lingle.

The bill seeks to recognize \"the rich religious, scientific, cultural and artistic contributions\" that Islam and the Islamic world have made. It does not call for any spending or organized celebration of Islam Day.

\"We are a state of tolerance. We understand that people have different beliefs,\" said Sen. Will Espero, a Democrat. \"We may not all agree on every single item and issue out there, but to say and highlight the negativity of the Islamic people is an insult to the majority\" of believers \"who are good law-abiding citizens of the world.\"

But Republican Sen. Sam Slom argued that the United States has become too sympathetic toward Islamic extremists.

\"I don't think there's any country in the history of the world that has been more tolerant than the United States of America, and because of that tolerance, we've looked the other way a lot of times, and many thousands of our citizens have been killed by terrorists,\" said Slom, a Republican.

The lone Democrat voting against the bill opposed it on church-state separation fears.

Send up a Christian Day bill to be voted on and lets see where they all line up....

Nothing like having your representatives suffering from frickin battered wives syndrome! Political correctness is your pimp biotches!

If you have a hobby that's a belief system, then it shouldn't interfere with other people's business. But there' always a few out there that want it to...

ThunderBunny wrote:HONOLULU -- Hawaii's state Senate overwhelmingly approved a bill Wednesday to celebrate "Islam Day"

I don't approve, but I don't hate it, so whatever...

ThunderBunny wrote:over the objections of a few lawmakers who said they didn't want to honor a religion connected to Sept. 11, 2001.

The Senate's two Republicans argued that a minority of Islamic extremists have killed many innocents in terrorist attacks.

"I recall radical Islamists around the world cheering the horrors of 9/11. That is the day all civilized people of all religions should remember," said Republican Sen. Fred Hemmings to the applause of more than 100 people gathered in the Senate to oppose a separate issue -- same-sex civil unions.

That is seriously bigoted - are these people up for re-election? I doubt it if they said that. Total failure...

ThunderBunny wrote:The bill seeks to recognize "the rich religious, scientific, cultural and artistic contributions" that Islam and the Islamic world have made. It does not call for any spending or organized celebration of Islam Day.

I used bolded text to emphazise - what happened, the middle east was one of the greatest places, it seems like it hasn't progressed since the 1700s!

"We are a state of tolerance. We understand that people have different beliefs," said Sen. Will Espero, a Democrat. "We may not all agree on every single item and issue out there, but to say and highlight the negativity of the Islamic people is an insult to the majority" of believers "who are good law-abiding citizens of the world."

ThunderBunny wrote:But Republican Sen. Sam Slom argued that the United States has become too sympathetic toward Islamic extremists.

"I don't think there's any country in the history of the world that has been more tolerant than the United States of America, and because of that tolerance, we've looked the other way a lot of times, and many thousands of our citizens have been killed by terrorists," said Slom, a Republican.

Wrong issue you moron.

ThunderBunny wrote:The lone Democrat voting against the bill opposed it on church-state separation fears.

This guy is total win!

ThunderBunny wrote:

Gee, never used that one before, have ya?

Frankly Dakatsu, I doubt TB wrote any of that…(but you knew that, right)

So your quote box should read…ThunderBunny copied and pasted…

Spidey wrote:Frankly Dakatsu, I doubt TB wrote any of that…(but you knew that, right)

So your quote box should read…ThunderBunny copied and pasted…

You doubt ThunderBunny wrote any of that? I am pretty sure he never writes anything

The pic is his though...

They are doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

Gooberman wrote:They are doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

I hold that to be an impossibility (or at least an extreme improbability).

Gooberman wrote:They are doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

I don't see it that way. I don't think it's the government's job to validate people, or their choice of beliefs.

I agree with the dissenting Democrat. I see this as a dangerous thing. Here's why: it sets a precedent that any religion should be able to have a day. If was in Hawaii, I'd press the issue. They should institute Christian day, Jewish day, Buddhist day, Naturalism day, Athiest day, etc. etc. etc. If any religion/belief system is denied its day, you've started down the path of the state sponsored religious discrimination. If you just said that nobody gets cake, then everybody cries together.

I demand a Zoroastrian day!

What everyone should be most concerned about is that there are elected representatives shaping our future that actually believe that having an Islam Day will somehow appease the radicals and improve relations with them!
If it was up to me I'd impeach them on grounds of complete incompetence and total stupidity!

Will Robinson wrote:What everyone should be most concerned about is that there are elected representatives shaping our future that actually believe that having an Islam Day will somehow appease the radicals and improve relations with them!
If it was up to me I'd impeach them on grounds of complete incompetence and total stupidity!

Stupidity is not the word for this....Treason, perhaps.

\"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;\"

Hopefully the state of Hawaii will recognize the spirit of the above phrase.

The controversial thing here seems to be just that they made up a new day about Islam. As you guys say, there is an \"Islam\" day but no \"Christian\" day. The more prudent thing to have done would have been to have just declared an already existing Islam holiday a state holiday. Since there is already a precedence for religious holidays being recognized government holidays (e.g. Christmas is a federal holiday), why not let everyone who has a state job get a day off for Ramadan too. Secretly take it out of their sick leave.

but there was a precedent: George Bush's \"Jesus Day\"

There's a difference in that \"Jesus Day\" was a one day deal. It wasn't signed into law to repeat year after year.

but also in Hawaii it is NOT signed into law to repeat year after year. If you read the actual resolution (.pdf), you'll see that the Islam Day is only a one-year deal as well.

BE IT RESOLVED by the House of Representatives of the Twenty-fifth Legislature of the State of Hawaii, Regular Session of 2009, the Senate concurring, that September 24, 2009, shall be known as \"Islam Day\" to recognize the rich religious, scientific, cultural, and artistic contributions Islam and the Islamic world have made since their founding;

(emphasis mine)

Jeff250 wrote:The controversial thing here seems to be just that they made up a new day about Islam. As you guys say, there is an "Islam" day but no "Christian" day. The more prudent thing to have done would have been to have just declared an already existing Islam holiday a state holiday. Since there is already a precedence for religious holidays being recognized government holidays (e.g. Christmas is a federal holiday), why not let everyone who has a state job get a day off for Ramadan too. Secretly take it out of their sick leave.

I'll agree with that.

Your jab at the end hits on-target, too. Don't we already have enough government holidays?

I vote for more paid holidays. Anybody else?

not sure if I understand it correctly, but nowhere in the resolution does it say that this will be a 'holiday', just that the September 24, 2009 shall be known as Islam Day. If this is correct, then this is no intrusion into anyone's life at all.

But note that there ARE christian *holidays* in Hawaii. Easter, Good Friday, Thanksgiving, and Christmas.

Don't know what the outrage is all about, other than that it is Islam that is celebrated.

Pandora wrote:but there was a precedent: George Bush's "Jesus Day"

When I find out a large number of the followers of Jesus have taken on the task of killing all of us and have successfully killed thousands of us then I'll be concerned with the wisdom of having a Jesus day....

Will Robinson wrote:When I find out a large number of the followers of Jesus have taken on the task of killing all of us and have successfully killed thousands of us then I'll be concerned with the wisdom of having a Jesus day....

Do you remember the "troubles" in Ireland? Christians on both sides. They didn't achieve a 911 level disaster over here, but it wasn't for lack of will. And they certainly killed a LOT of people.

We are all better off when the government doesn't promote ANYONE'S religion. "Jesus Day" is a wonderful idea, if its unofficial and being promoted by churches and individuals. It's a HORRIBLE idea when the government feels a need to stick it's fingers into it.

Will Robinson wrote:

Pandora wrote:but there was a precedent: George Bush's "Jesus Day"

When I find out a large number of the followers of Jesus have taken on the task of killing all of us and have successfully killed thousands of us then I'll be concerned with the wisdom of having a Jesus day....

What Kilarin said.

also, do you think it is wise to treat Islam as a whole as your enemy? After all most of its followers are no terrorists at all, and would not lift a finger against the US, and those in the US might be patriots as much as you are. The text of the resolution actually goes out on a limb to highlight these peaceful, productive aspects of Islam. I don't know why these peaceful followers should not get a carrot once in a while. Isn't it in the US best interest to boost the morale and strengthen this part of the religion?

Pandora wrote:...I don't know why these peaceful followers should not get a carrot once in a while. Isn't it in the US best interest to boost the morale and strengthen this part of the religion?

Make up your mind, either it is or it isn't a good idea for the government to single out a religious faction and officially offer them praise!

As to boosting the moral of the peaceful subset of the Islamic religion that is kind of like saying we should have a 'not too terribly committed Christians day'...since the warrior/prophet Muhammad and his followers look down on the weak moderates in their own religion kind of like the Southern Baptists look down on the Methodists....except among the christian factions they don't cut off each others heads like the Islamists do....


My point is simple, I don't promote government sponsored pats on the back for any religion and I find it particularly stupid for a person to think any kind of token gesture would cause the radicals to ignore the Korans lessons regarding their duty to kill infidels! Try as you may you can't convince me to ignore the glaring fundamental difference between the two religions. It is a multiple centuries wide chasm of evolutionary difference between them!

Beliefs are NOT \"evolutionary.\" Sorry.

My beliefs have been evolving throughout my entire life.

Will Robinson wrote: Make up your mind, either it is or it isn't a good idea for the government to single out a religious faction and officially offer them praise!

I have made up my mind. I fully support that a government can praise the ACHIEVEMENTS or CONTRIBUTIONS of any faction it wants, whenever it wants, when it suits its political goals. I disagree with it praising certain BELIEFS of this religion's followers, and I disagree with this having any influence on the general public's life. But - if you read the resolution - neither of these latter two things have happened.

(a) There was no interference in anyone's life: Islam day is not a holiday, and the resolution has no legal status.
(b) it praises the achievements and contributions of Islamic society, rather than the religions' beliefs.

As to boosting the moral of the peaceful subset of the Islamic religion that is kind of like saying we should have a 'not too terribly committed Christians day'...since the warrior/prophet Muhammad and his followers look down on the weak moderates in their own religion kind of like the Southern Baptists look down on the Methodists....except among the christian factions they don't cut off each others heads like the Islamists do....

I don't understand what you are saying here.

My point is simple, I don't promote government sponsored pats on the back for any religion and I find it particularly stupid for a person to think any kind of token gesture would cause the radicals to ignore the Korans lessons regarding their duty to kill infidels!

Nobody says that the resolution was intended to appease the radicals. That's only the reading of the right-wing websites. To reiterate: the only thing the resolution does is praise Islams peaceful contributions to society.

Try as you may you can't convince me to ignore the glaring fundamental difference between the two religions. It is a multiple centuries wide chasm of evolutionary difference between them!

I believe you are quite misinformed about the Koran. But as you already say "try as you might" any further discussion on this point is moot.

W.R. wrote:....and I find it particularly stupid for a person to think any kind of token gesture would cause the radicals to ignore the Korans lessons regarding their duty to kill infidels!

"Islam day" has about as much to do with appeasing and placating radical Islamic fundamentalists, as Black history month does at preventing the U.S. Navy from being overtaken by Somali pirates.

Gooberman wrote:

W.R. wrote:....and I find it particularly stupid for a person to think any kind of token gesture would cause the radicals to ignore the Korans lessons regarding their duty to kill infidels!

"Islam day" has about as much to do with appeasing and placating radical Islamic fundamentalists, as Black history month does at preventing the U.S. Navy from being overtaken by Somali pirates.

Do you really believe it isn't designed to counter the prevailing sentiment that Islam is the religion most likely to produce terrorists?

What other religious group has Hawaii announced a special day for? If none then does Hawaii not know about the good deeds done by other groups?

Will Robinson wrote:Do you really believe it isn't designed to counter the prevailing sentiment that Islam is the religion most likely to produce terrorists?

That isn't what you said, you said,

...would cause the radicals to ignore the Korans lessons regarding their duty to kill infidels!"

This quote suggests that the day was some sort of bribery to keep them from attacking us. It wasn't.

Was its intent to counter the increasing sentiment (here) that Islam == Terorism? Sure, that's part of it.

Similar to Black history month, the intent is to allow those associated with said group to feel more accepted and appreciated in a time of ever increasing public skepticism/uncertainty, and in some instances downright bigotry against their group. As Pandora said, its intent is to recognize their achievements.

It is also designed to inoculate the majority from misinformation that is spread about this minority group.

In the end, I think these days/months/government sanctioned dividers are exactly that, dividers.

They end up being one more hurdle for the group to jump. For example, a white man who doesn't have a racist bone in his body may become so after his daughter is rejected from her choice school, and an African American was accepted who had lower marks. Or even with regards B.H.M., the story of slavery and the Civil rights movement in America' is just as inspiring as it was horrific.

Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it. --Helen Keller

These arn't Black American stories, of Islam American achievements, they are things we can all take pride in. So we agree, these dividers are bad....

But I have no doubt that those who support this day, and Black history month, and affirmative action, are doing so for the right reasons.

Gooberman wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:Do you really believe it isn't designed to counter the prevailing sentiment that Islam is the religion most likely to produce terrorists?

That isn't what you said, you said,

...would cause the radicals to ignore the Korans lessons regarding their duty to kill infidels!"

This quote suggests that the day was some sort of bribery to keep them from attacking us. It wasn't.

I think your a bit naive making that distinction.

Sure there are moderate Muslims that are perhaps as put off by the conventional wisdom that they are wacko religious nuts just like the majority of Christians are put off by the same treatment...the constant ridicule they suffer by the left wing pop culture morons who mock them daily for their faith. Even the President said something about them "clinging to their religion and their guns" when comments like that served him well because he was pandering to a room full of left wing voters!

I think some of you don't even realize the depth of the crap Christians put up with in this country because you were born and bred to consume and spread it like a white boy in the south was to adopt racial bigotry growing up in the 40's and 50's.

So if it is just about moderate "normal muslim" appreciation where is the Christian appreciation effort by the State of Hawaii?!?
Because surely the state of Hawaii would have seen that same need for recognizing the Christians and others long before Sept 11,2001!

No, they singled out Islam because unlike the Christians the Muslims have gone medieval on our asses...well, actually they didn't go medieval they just never stopped dwelling in that century! Thus my evolutionary reference. That is the big difference between Islam and all the other equally deserving religious groups not honored by the State!

The moderates in Islam don't deserve any kind of special day anymore than the other religious groups do, in fact they are less deserving because the moderates in Islam have allowed the radicals to thrive among them in practically every country and city and village that Islam is practiced. The radical clerics and mosques are as popular and available as McDonald's hamburger restaurants are in western culture!

Imagine if Christian churches had the same ratio of thriving radical wacko congregations and held control of governments the way so many radical Muslims do in the middle east! Imagine a God Hates Fags church in every town etc. You guys would be talking about martial law to save us from them!! Imagine if Texas wanted to honor the Christians in a world like that what would you be saying about it?!?!

I heard all sorts of complaining and hateful dialogue about George Bush wanting to have faith based organizations get involved in distributing government sponsored food and shelter. You guys were screaming "Bush's Theocracy" at the mere effort to let established soup kitchens and shelters put their hands on the process.
Yet you have no problem making excuses for having a government sponsored celebration of a religion that does far too little to rid itself of a large faction of some of the most horrible murderous thugs in the history of the world!
The hypocrisy in that selective application of your precious separation of church and state is huge!

Any religion has or has had a large portion of nutjobs. The crusades are a prime example of how terroristic bastard Christians can be. You can't push the blame off on anyone else for that. Hell, they even used children.

You are correct in one light; as a whole Christianity has evolved into what it is today; we won't tolerate another crusade, we won't slaughter gays, we allow divorce. Islam has not been nearly as fast, the Middle East being a prime example for a cradle of radical Islam.

But Islam as a whole is slowly evolving. I know many muslims, even a muslim girl I saw in a bikini. No burkas, contrary to what you may think. The fact is their islamic beliefs evolved into ones more accepting of other people. The Saudi version of Islam hasn't, but as a whole Islam is slowly pulling itself out of this. To condemn everyone the whole religion just because some sects haven't changed their views is plain wrong. In time islam will be a peace loving religion, but to attack it as entirely evil only engrages everyone, including the peaceful ones.

I don't condemn a religion I condemn the people who make up the culture that insulates the radicals from evolving at something close to the rate the western world has.
Either they are inferior or willfully hanging on to their violent, oppressive methods of interacting with their neighbors.

It's about time the rest of the world tried calling a spade a spade instead of trying to be so damn nice with hopes they suddenly find guilt and shame for their ways!!
Islam shares the blame for their radicals on the same scale and ratio as their radicals exist compared to other cultures. That makes them the worst and most dangerous. Not hate just math.

It's what, two thousand and nine years since the romans and jews strapped a guy to a huge cross and let him die horribly because he was scary with god...it's like 20 days since the last misunderstood Muslim chopped of his wife's head for showing too much leg!!!!

I think your a bit naive making that distinction.

Sure there are moderate Muslims that are perhaps as put off by the conventional wisdom that they are wacko religious nuts just like the majority of Christians are put off by the same treatment...the constant ridicule they suffer by the left wing pop culture morons who mock them daily for their faith. Even the President said something about them \"clinging to their religion and their guns\" when comments like that served him well because he was pandering to a room full of left wing voters!

I kept waiting for the, 'but'...it seems like you are disagreeing out of sport. And what is wrong with clinging to your religion in a time of need? Or saying that that happens.

I think some of you don't even realize the depth of the crap Christians put up with in this country because you were born and bred to consume and spread it like a white boy in the south was to adopt racial bigotry growing up in the 40's and 50's.

I was raised Catholic, I considered myself Catholic up through high school, and I cannot deny some of the great things I have seen religion do in some people's lives. So you are quite far off target in this quote. But I never bought into the hype that Christianity is undergoing some sort of persecution in America. People may be throwing stones up at you on the mountain, but don't forget that you are on the mountain. By and large we are a Christian nation. I lived to see the first Black president, but neither of us will live to see the first openly non-Christian president.

So if it is just about moderate \"normal muslim\" appreciation where is the Christian appreciation effort by the State of Hawaii?!?

You arn't going to box me into defending it, because I have said repeatedly that I disagree with the day. But answer me why we don't have an Asian history month, or a Hispanic history month, or a German history month....and I suspect that the justifications will be identical.

Maybe it really was to appease Somali pirates?!?

The hypocrisy in that selective application of your precious separation of church and state is huge!

Nope, thought it was a bad idea in my first post. Thought it was a bad idea in my second, still thought it was a bad idea in my third. We can keep going if you would like though.

I said \"I think some of you\"...
I have a bad habit of seeing a post from one person, realizing it fits the conventional perception, and then respond to all those that hold it without remembering to say something like: Gooberman, this may not all apply to you but for those that think this way....blah blah blah...

But answer me why we don't have an Asian history month, or a Hispanic history month, or a German history month....and I suspect that the justifications will be identical.

I sort of did answer that in advance. I asked you to consider that the motive for singling out the #1 producer of war and terror to hand them praise might just be something other than they also have contributed something good to the world since the State of Hawaii hasn't found reason to have special day for anyone else...like Hispanics or Germans.

I lived to see the first Black president, but neither of us will live to see the first openly non-Christian president.

I think we've seen a few, Clinton and Obama for starters and although Bush may have spent a little more time on his knees in prayer than those two overall I'm not buying it. If those three are the real deal then I might have a chance at salvation after all, in fact I might be in the front row!!

Gooberman wrote:You arn't going to box me into defending it, because I have said repeatedly that I disagree with the day. But answer me why we don't have an Asian history month, or a Hispanic history month, or a German history month....and I suspect that the justifications will be identical.

ummm, say what .... ???

Asian/Pacific Heritage Month
http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/her ... index.html

http://asianpacificheritage.gov/


Hispanic Heritage Month
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_H ... tage_Month


German Heritage Month
http://www.gmbookchest.com/pages/heritage.html

(and, hey, there's always Oktoberfest !!)

Owned!

Will Robinson wrote:I asked you to consider that the motive for singling out the #1 producer of war and terror to hand them praise

Do you really think that this due to their religion, rather than their geopolitical situation? i.e. being part of the developing world, having part of their country taken away etc.

might just be something other than they also have contributed something good to the world since the State of Hawaii hasn't found reason to have special day for anyone else...like Hispanics or Germans.

But they do have Hispanic or German days in Hawaii --- they actually have months (see dissent's links)!!! As does the rest of the US!

Pandora wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:I asked you to consider that the motive for singling out the #1 producer of war and terror to hand them praise

Do you really think that this due to their religion, rather than their geopolitical situation? i.e. being part of the developing world, having part of their country taken away etc.

I don't blame the religion as I already pointed out in this thread:

Will Robinson wrote:I don't condemn a religion I condemn the people who make up the culture that insulates the radicals from evolving at something close to the rate the western world has.
Either they are inferior or willfully hanging on to their violent, oppressive methods of interacting with their neighbors.

For years you could do a search on worlds hot spots and find Muslims will be at the heart of more conflicts than any other faction. Is it the religion that does it? Not exactly but the cultures that cling to Islam seem to cling to ancient laws and methods of dealing with outsiders. Just calling a spade a spade here not making ★■◆● up.


Now to this...

Pandora wrote:But they do have Hispanic or German days in Hawaii --- they actually have months (see dissent's links)!!! As does the rest of the US!

Those links are to recognition by the United States of America and no sign, by the way, of a Christian Day or Buddhist Day etc.

I asked:

What other religious group has Hawaii announced a special day for?
If none then does Hawaii not know about the good deeds done by other groups?

So far it looks like Hawaii has only taken the initiative to honor Muslims in this way.... and then, by default, only because they are a member of the United States, not by any act of their own it honors Hispanics and Germans etc.

So my questioning the motive for this act stands....