DescentBB

Hey there. I've been playing Descent for quite some time, without strafing whatsoever for quite a while, too. I've come up with a perfect keyboard-only setup, which I'll now present if it's to help anybody. It's specifically for Descent 1, but can be reused in D2 with slight alterations, although I haven't taken any time perfecting it for D2. So, here goes:

Accelerate: LShift
Reverse: LCtrl
Strafe Up: W
Strafe Down: S
Strafe Left: A
Strafe Right: D
Turn Up: NumPad 8 (or 5, per preference)
Turn Down: NumPad 5 (or 8, per preference)
Turn Left: NumPad 4
Turn Right: NumPad 6
Fire Primary: LAlt
Fire Secondary: Z
Fire Flare: X
Drop Bomb: C
Rotate Left: Q
Rotate Right: E

This config lets you have absolute control over your ship with just your left hand, the right one only handling the turning-around operations. I use this config and am having no problems whatsoever, doing quite well on Ace difficulty. Lemme hear your thoughts about it

I appreciate the intellectual challenge of trying to perfect something inherently difficult - but personally I couldn't stomach the idea of playing with just a keyboard when Mouse / Joystick flying is (on the face of it) so much easier to learn and instinctive to master.

To each their own, I guess

I used a config almost identical to that back in the day (except I used CapsLock/LShift instead of your LShift/LCtrl). Here are a couple of problems I had with it:

1. That configuration causes a number of key conflicts with most keyboards I've used. Two or three key combinations were fine, but the fourth or fifth key often won't register.

2. Some combinations are virtually impossible - e.g. in your setup, a forward-left-up trichord while firing primaries and secondaries is a hand-cruncher at best. Throw in a roll, and it's just not feasible.

If you're going to go all keyboard with that sort of configuration, you really need to put the firing buttons on the right hand, because your movement/chording hand needs to be free to use lots of different combinations fluidly.

Get a Keytronic Lifetime Series II USB or Ps2. If you have the \"my keyboard is too cheap and does not support more than 3 key presses at once\" syndrome

I had this issue back in 1995 same problem still exists today for most people
USB Black Beige PS2 Black Beige Designer
USB W/TB Black PS2 W/TB Black Beige

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I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes or should I.......

Well my only problem is when I try to shoot Primary (LAlt) and Slide Up (W), WordWeb pops up, alt-tabbing my game, while ★■◆● still goes on inside... I guess I just gotta remove the key shortcut to activating WordWeb. Otherwise I'm pretty fine. Never really tri-chorded, though. Can someone fill me in on it?

It's pretty essential to master the game to be able to trichord, which is the ability to do 3 things simultaneously. 1: Move forwards or backwards. 2: Move left or right. 3: Move up or down. Each additional axis increases the speed at which the ship can travel. The extra speed is pretty necessary in a level like 26 in D1 where you have to race away from fusion hulks lobbing at you through the catwalks. Also, in multiplayer CTF in particular you're infinitely more valuable to a team if you can tri-chord well to escape with the flag or run down the opposing team's carriers.

As for a KB-only setup, I got away with one for quite a few years. I had a keyboard that could register at least 8 keystrokes at once, which was very nice. Unfortunately, I had it set up so that in order to bank I had to take my fingers off of two directions for sliding. Switching to joystick + keyboard later eradicated this problem.

Oh. Seems like I HAVE trichorded, after all... I think I'll practice it a bit. In the level 25 pathways, I think, they're pretty long.

BUBBALOU wrote:Get a Keytronic Lifetime Series II USB or Ps2. If you have the "my keyboard is too cheap and does not support more than 3 key presses at once" syndrome

I had this issue back in 1995 same problem still exists today for most people

I second the recommendation.

Keytronic manufactures some EXCELLENT hardware. I remember testing various keyboards in the store (with my old laptop running a specially-designed piece of software) and getting 7-8 simultaneous keys with a Keytronic keyboard and anywhere between 2 and 4 with every other keyboard I tested.

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Overall, the things you want to accomplish with a keyboard setup are:

1) be able to move along every independent axis (pitch/roll/yaw and 3 slides) AND fire primaries and secondaries all at once. Basically, you should be able to trichord, aim, and shoot with everything you have.

2) be able to switch directions with one finger without having another finger release its key (so be careful about what you use your ring finger and pinky for.)

3) be able to cycle through weapons without moving your hand out of maneuvering / firing position.

BUBBALOU wrote:Get a Keytronic Lifetime Series II USB or Ps2. If you have the "my keyboard is too cheap and does not support more than 3 key presses at once" syndrome

I had this issue back in 1995 same problem still exists today for most people

I find the keyboard controller also has to do with multiplexing problems. I like Dell keyboards because they are solid construction; here's the thing, though. If I use a Dell keyboard on a Dell (it could be the brand thing that does it) I can do upwards of 8 simultaneous keystrokes. But, if I use a Dell keyboard with other PCs, such as with the EPoX board I had, I could do no more than 3 simultaneous keystrokes without the controller on the mobo freaking out.

I got a Saitek Eclipse to work around this issue, and it solved most of it. Even with the Saitek keyboard, I would run into some maneuvers that it didn't like, such as when I trichord and pitch at the same time, or trichord and turn at the same time. I was surprised because I thought that a USB keyboard could avoid the issue of multiplexing altogether, but I have learned it's not the case.

Lothar wrote:2) be able to switch directions with one finger without having another finger release its key (so be careful about what you use your ring finger and pinky for.)

3) be able to cycle through weapons without moving your hand out of maneuvering / firing position.

I don't think these two are that terribly important. With a developed technique the difference in speed between using 2 fingers and using 1 between 2 adjacent keys is minuscule. And cycling through weapons requires you to remember what weapons you currently have in your inventory, and you could easily switch to an inappropriate weapon for the current situation, so I find it far more useful to stretch a finger from my LH to tap the number button for the weapon I need next, which is a very rapid process after you've been playing awhile and know where all the keys are.

Maybe I shouldn't be talking because my config has both of these "problems," and I'm certainly nowhere near the best pilot to ever hit the mines, but I seriously doubt my deficiencies are at all significantly related to that aspect of my config. And particularly for mouse players (which I'm not, but there are plenty of great ones), there's just no way they can have each finger assigned to its own key unless they also utilize foot pedals or voice commands. Lacking the ability to actually perform permutations of chording, aiming and firing is far more debilitating.

D3Alien wrote:With a developed technique the difference in speed between using 2 fingers and using 1 between 2 adjacent keys is minuscule

It's not so important that you use 1 finger or 2 for certain functions, only that whatever you do, when you move a finger, your other fingers don't get forced off of their keys. Nothing worse than changing directions and having your finger release from the "fire" key...

cycling through weapons requires you to remember what weapons you currently have in your inventory

Or to have your display set up to show what's in your inventory, or to just realize "this is not the right weapon" and cycle until you find something better. Yeah, it's better to be able to pick a specific weapon, but being able to pick "something else" is better than being stuck with what you currently have.

Well generally I only change weapons when the situation requires something different, so I know exactly which weapon I'll need next. For example in Varicose Veins I'll often go down the halls firing fusion ahead of me, and if an opposing pilot appears in my sights firing MD I'll switch to that, and after hitting them twice in a row, if they're a decent pilot or I'm feeling lazy I'll switch to vauss to finish them off. If I cycled weapons it'd be annoying because in-between I might switch to plasma or super lasers, which probably aren't the most efficient weapons at that point.

Zantor ?.... ?... ?.. ?. ?

#1 - 99% it is the keyboard (other 1% = user error)

#2 - NEVER USE DELL Hardware, under no circumstance for any comparison on ANY FORUM

#3 - DELL and Paperweight have the same meaning and purpose, to think otherwise you should be BANNED

#4 - DELL is propitiatory \"ENOUGH SAID\"

#5 - KTHXBYE

For crying out loud, you don't need to overreact! Isn't civility an important thing, here?

Yes, often Dells are useless, proprietary junk; I despise Dell as much as you do, especially because of their market share and how they shove their stuff down consumers' throats. I find that if there is any one thing they can make, it's a decent keyboard that can put up to the use of hundreds of users daily and keep working, but then I guess any keyboard can do it.

I had the issue as bad or worse with the Compaq keyboard I used for a while, and so I got the Eclipse. I'm on the dell kb because I sent my Eclipse in for warranty service. I'll get it back in a week or two when Saitek is done with it.

I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes or should I.......

Zantor wrote:I'm on the dell kb because I sent my Eclipse in for warranty service. I'll get it back in a week or two when MadKatz is done with it.

Why would you send a $26 Eclipse Keyboard that has a chip issue in for repairs...
I bought one and threw it away..... utter garbage

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modedit: first part was killed for trying to provoke.

you're on thin ice bubba. don't push it.

BUBBALOU wrote:Zantor ?.... ?... ?.. ?. ?

[rant, rant, rant...]

There goes Bubbs with his red lettering again.

BUBBALOU wrote:Why would you send a $26 Eclipse Keyboard that has a chip issue in for repairs...

Well, warrantied repairs are going to cost less than buying a replacement or even the Keytronic you recommended. $26 may not be a ton of money, but it's still worth saving if you can get free repairs on a piece of hardware.

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Personally, I've been using the Belkin N52 and N52te. They have some clear drawbacks, including some wacky drivers, the hardware seems to wear out after a while (thank heaven for BestBuy product replacement!), and some people find the key placement uncomfortable. But for me they've worked extremely well; it's comfortable for my hand, and having all my slides on my thumb via the D-pad really frees up the fingers for other controls.

[Waits for the impending rant about how bad Belkin hardware is...]

I was a flat KBer back in the day...lemme thing if I can recall my config..hmm

LSHIFT - forward
keypad 0 - reverse
keypad enter - slide down
keypad + slide up
space - secondary
LALT - primary
z - bomb drop
a - afterburners
s - ...was something. I can't recall.
d - same deal as s...dammit!
f - flares

Most everything else was default.

I think I was working on an improved keyset when I finally stopped playing descent ages ago, but it was built around the use of a joystick and I never got used to it.

I play Descent again with D2X, but I use one of these now: http://datahand.com/products/proii.htm It looks like something out of a sci-fi movie, I know, but it IS a keyboard. Makes playing Descent via KB pure utopia. no more carpal tunnel flareups.

Valin Halcyon wrote:... but I use one of these now: http://datahand.com/products/proii.htm It looks like something out of a sci-fi movie, I know, but it IS a keyboard. Makes playing Descent via KB pure utopia. no more carpal tunnel flareups.

!!! o_0

Dude! $995.00 ??!!???? YIKES!

(Pretty cool though) I saw this kind of typing device about 15ish years ago; only they used what looked like a large bowling ball.

Holy cow.. nearly 1k!yeeeshh...

If you've ever had carpal tunnel and the associated surgery, it's worth it's double weight in gold (It's not very heavy. xD ).

A = accelerate
Z = reverse
S = strafe left
X = strafe right
Q = strafe up
W = strafe down
D = bank left
C = bank right
E = afterburner
R = rear view
Space = secondary
Ctrl = primary
arrow keys = view look

Works awesome for me. All my primary keys are in a small compressed area so I can switch out directions instantly if I need to.

DFW: Don't you run into simultaneous keypress problems with that setup, or do you use an IBM model M KB?

My settings:
W - accelerate
S - reverse
A - strafe left
D - streafe right
Q - bank left
E - bank right
LShift - primary fire
Space - secondary fire
X - flare
RCtrl - drop bomb
Arrows - turning
Num 1 - strafe up
Num 0 - strafe down

D3Alien wrote:If I cycled weapons it'd be annoying because in-between I might switch to plasma or super lasers, which probably aren't the most efficient weapons at that point.

That's why i've always used the number buttons to switch to the weapons i needed.
i see where that could be quite frustrating though.

My configuration is very rare. I use numberpad for all flight operations, and the mouse for fine tune aim.
Mouse:
Left ubtton, fire primary
Right buton, secondary
Center button: Drop bomb (In d3 I use it as flare)
Numberpad:
7,9 for bank
1,3 for slide left/right
0 and . for slide up/down
5 for afterburner
4,6 for turns
8,2 for up/down pitch
+, Enter for Accelerate/Reverse
-*/ are for others, like headlight, flares and converter

See the huge flaw in my config? I have to move my hands to switch weapons. Its ok in low intensity games, but I have to pick a weapon and stick with it in larger, faster games.
This config serves me well, and ive been using it since 95.

gettin kind of tired seeing bubba try and provoke people here.

Valin Halcyon wrote:DFW: Don't you run into simultaneous keypress problems with that setup, or do you use an IBM model M KB?

Not really, I've gotten used to it.

BUBBALOU wrote:I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes or should I.......

I don't think anyone gets that joke Bubba.

I read the book in my sophomore year and I am an avid fan of Ghost In the Shell.

And what ninja mod edit just occurred? Sorry, im very illiterate.

EDIT: Ahhh I see it now.

This thread was very helpful to me. I've played Descent since '95 using the default keyboard layout. I recently started playing on a laptop and it was really awkward without a keypad to use.

After reading this forum I decided to try different controls. My first attempt was using Joystick + Mouse, and it was great, but found it to be sluggish at times (and the hat switch wasn't comfortable for me). Also, I still had to take my hand off the stick to key a stroke occasionally, and I didn't like that.

I then tried KB + Mouse, and that was much better for me. But even so I still don't like the difficulty of turning 180+ degrees with a mouse. So I came up with a configuration that allows me to easily switch between flying with a KB + Mouse, or just KB. (I pitch, turn, and bank with the mouse.)

It took a few hours to come up with something that felt natural to me, and got past the multiplexing issues of my laptop. But for the first time ever I can tri-chord! Gee, it only took 15 years.

Nice to see my topic got stickied. Anyway, I'm used to playing with this setup, and I've done slight revisions to accomodate all the functions of Descent 2.

Afterburner - NumPad 0 (you control it with your thumb at any given time)
Headlight - F (you just briefly deplace your finger from the strafe right key D)
Converter - R (same story as above)

I haven't used other options, such as Toggle Bomb, but if you're confident in your ability to remember keys, you could set this up on NumPad + to control with your right hand (could get kinda confusing, since my Drop Bomb key is C).

I've never gotten the mouse to work, even on the source ports, besides using the keyboard I feel like I'm in total control. The main problem with the keyboard is the default setting which prevents our imaginations from accepting that a fully functional keyboard setup is possible

Why do I reply now, not either? 'cause I just noticed t'is thread now. No complainments!

Forward: up arrow
Reverse: down -"-
Turn left: left -"-
-"- Right: right: -"-
Pitch up: Page Up
-"- down: Pg down
Bank: default
Slide on: rght Shift
Primary: rght Ctrl
Secondary: Enter
Bomb: Space

That's the easiest to me. I've never trichorded, it takes too many hands already.

So, there is someone else who can't trichord.

By the way, no offense, but it's hard to understand what you're saying. I've heard you say that english is your first language (correct me if I'm wrong there), but you seem to be using a wierd dialect and I don't understand a lot the grammar you use.
I am grateful you're not speaking in old-english anymore though.

First language? I was pretty sure Descer was Finnish.

Trichording can be done with the keyboard; you just have to have a good configuration. I'd recommend using the main area of the keyboard (letter keys) for the bulk of the work - more options around your fingers, easier to reach stuff, etc. That and the posture is slightly better - using keys clustered around the arrows with both hands has to get pretty uncomfortable after a while.

Also, since most people do have a mouse now, it would be worth considering using that for pitch + left/right turning. It's much more accurate.

There's no use posting my config here, as I do use a mouse for one thing, and also my keyboard is so wierd no one will understand what my hands are doing.
I have figured out how to use it on a regular keyboard (it involves using the insert, home, pageup, pagedown, etc section of the keyboard instead of the arrow keys).
Basically the main idea is to have the banking keys on either side of the accelerate key. My config also works well for groundpounder games (the few that I play), because slide up and slide down become jump and duck (stays intuitive).

Here's my control config...it has the same problem of maxing out the keyboard, but if you have a gaming keyboard this is every bit as good as a joystick (you CAN tri-chord, the only thing you can't do is roll while tri-chording...you could hook up rudder pedals for that.)

Pitch Forward: Num 8
Pitch Backward: Num 5
Turn Left: Num 4
Turn Right: Num 6
Bank (Roll) Left: Q and Num 7
Bank (Roll) Right: E and Num 9
Accelerate: W
Reverse: S
Slide Left: A
Slide Right: D
Slide Up: Num Enter (Should be under the pinkie of your right hand...if it's not use whatever button is there)
Slide Down: Right Arrow Key (Should be under the thumb of the right hand)
Fire Primary: Space
Fire Secondary: Left Shift (Once again under the pinkie of left hand...you might want to use control or something like that)

Then you can assign Headlights, Afterburners, etc. to whatever you like.

Might as well post my layout. I didn't really change it too much from the default, but playing with both the keyboard and the mouse, just a few changes made the game was a lot easier for me:

Accelerate = A
Reverse = Z
Strafe Left = D
Strafe Right = G
Strafe Up = R
Strafe Down = V

Pitch Up = Down Arrow
Pitch Down = Up Arrow
Head Left = Left Arrow
Head Right = Right Arrow
Bank Counterclockwise = Q
Bank Clockwise = E

Automap = Tab
Fire Primary = Left Ctrl / Right Ctrl
Fire Secondary = Spacebar
Drop Bomb = B
Fire Flare = F

Toggle Bomb = N
Transform Energy to Shields = T
Toggle Headlight Boost = J
Afterburner = S

The cruise control keys are vestigial, since I never use them anymore. But "off" is [, "slower" is ] and "faster" is \. There's also the rear view I never use, assigned to Backspace. The setup's a little cluttered, but hey, I can trichord using only my left hand, so I'm fine with it.

My OLD config:
Forward: a
Backward: z
Afterburner: s
Slide Left: Delete
Slide Right: PgDn
Slide Up: Home
Slide Down: End
Bank Left: Q
Bank Right: E
Yaw Left: Left Arrow
Yaw Right: Right Arrow
Pitch Forward (nose down): Up Arrow
Pitch Backward (nose up): Down Arrow

Automap: Tab
Fire Primary: Space
Fire Secondary: Right Ctrl/Right Shift
Countermeasure: Enter/Return
Switch Countermeasure: ; (or maybe it was ' )
Transfer Energy to Shields: T
Fire flare: F
Headlight: L
Rear View: R/B (I can't remember which)

My NEW config (new as in, a good half year or so ago):
Forward: W
Backward: S
Afterburner:s
Slide Left: A
Slide Right: D
Slide Up: Left Shift/R
Slide Down: Left Ctrl/F
Bank Left: Q
Bank Right: E
Yaw Left: Left Arrow/Move Mouse Left
Yaw Right: Right Arrow/Move Mouse Right
Pitch Forward (nose down): Up Arrow/Move Mouse Up
Pitch Backward (nose up): Down Arrow/Move Mouse Down

Automap: Tab
Fire Primary: Right Mouse Button
Fire Secondary: Left Mouse Button
Countermeasure: forgot
Switch Countermeasure: forgot
Transfer Energy to Shields: T
Fire flare: Middle Mouse Button/forgot keyboard command
Headlight: L/X/forgot
Rear View: B

It's meant for keyboard and mouse.
It's also based off of ACE Online/Air Rivals for basic movement and aiming.
It's been a while since I last played so I can't exactly remember, can't just start game right now, in class.

Well, pitching and turning with the mouse has its cons, obviously. You trade turning velocity for aiming accuracy. On the other hand, with the keyboard, you can't hit anything in multiplayer... sucks there is no middle ground in this.

With practise and a big mousepad you can make turning velocity into a pretty small issue with the mouse...

Ah, this takes me back... I was, and still am, a keyboard-only guy. I never liked having to pick up my mouse and move it back to the opposite corner of the pad just to continue a long pitch/turn operation. But obviously people have worked around that and are far better pilots than me. I used a joystick in Freespace and other space-combat sims (Tachyon anyone?), for the same reason - to avoid picking up my mouse and plopping it down every 2 seconds.

Anyway, I loved my Descent keyboard layout, but I'm a novice pilot at best and have never been great at anarchy all 2 times I tried it... But when I fired up Rebirth after not having played any Descent in years, and put my old key-mappings back in place, I tell you, it was like riding a bike and the seat was tempur-pedic-perfect. Here it is:

Left hand--
Pitch fwd+back: A,Z (madness, I know!)
Fire primary: LShift
Afterburner: LAlt
Automap: Tab
Rear: Q
Flare: S
Bomb: X
Headlight: D
Converter: W

Right hand-- (all on Numpad)
Move Fwd/Rev: 8/2
Turn L/R: 4/6
Bank L/R: 7/9
Slide L/R: 1/3
Slide U/D: +/Enter
Fire Sec: 5
Weapon cycle: could be '/' or '*', but could also be E/R on left-hand.. I dunno, never, used em.

I rely heavily on the numpad being of "standard" layout, so needless to say I can't do this on a laptop -- and since that's my primary machine now, I use a wireless keyboard. Which, shockingly, doesn't have the "can't press more than 3 keys at once" problem, so I can still tri-chord (I think, if I understand the term correctly). It probably does have some "max keys at once" limitation, I just haven't really tested it.

And all the veterans are screaming, "What?! What is this nonsense, having a 'look' operation like Pitch on the opposite hand from all the rest?" Yeah, I know, I'm insane.