DescentBB

I found myself in an interesting conversation recently about poverty and wealth and whether or not they are choices we can make. I maintain that they are; the other guy maintains that they aren't.

some guy wrote:It must take a lot of work to maintain the level of ignorance needed to believe that poverty is a choice, and that wealth is an option available to all. It's a type of magical thinking especially prevalent among privileged white folks.

Dedman wrote:It isn't ignorance at all. While people don't choose to be born into poverty they ultimately choose to stay there through the choices they make. I will agree that many, maybe most, impoverished folks aren't aware they have made a choice. The real tragedy isn't that they are impoverished; it’s that they don't realize they can change their situation if they choose to. Is it more difficult for someone who grew up in the projects to become wealthy than someone who grew up with better circumstances? Absolutely! Some people are dealt such a crappy hand at birth that it takes a monumental effort on their part to achieve any success. But by saying that wealth isn't an option and poverty isn't a choice you are spitting in the face of every one who pulled themselves up from a bad start in life to achieve success. Are you saying that their success wasn't the result of their own hard work and determination? Are you saying that it was a result of someone "letting" them have their achievements?

Thoughts?

I agree, Dedman. Not to mention that there is more to poverty, and wealth, than money. Some of the monetarily \"poor\" are among the wealthiest of hearts and some of the wealthiest in money are among the poorest of souls.

Not to wax philosophical then, let's consider money alone. I think part of the issue is to count the \"choice\" as an all or nothing proposition, when it is not. It's not hard to imagine cases where great effort still results in failure, for any number of reasons, be they cultural, historical or other circumstance. Great effort may not guarantee results, but it makes it easier for the results to bear fruit when the circumstances are favorable. For some people, their talent and/or their circumstances will be even more favorable, making even greater success possible.

Nothing is guaranteed in this life, but your chances are better if you work hard to prepare for your desired outcome. By the same token, your chances of failure are increased by not applying yourself to your goal. Some slackers will reach the goal anyway, by sheer luck perhaps; but that's not where I'd bet my money.

This issue always raises the age old question…

Why can some people come to this country with only a dime in their pockets, work their asses off at low paying jobs, and in only a generation or two, end up in the middle class…while other families remain in poverty generation after generation?

My evil conservative side has an answer, but I don’t see a reason to make “every” discussion into a political debate…

Its a tough question: ultimately success is a game of chance, but that doesn't mean you can't seriously stack the deck in your favor (or against you).

I do think people who have been given a poor hand in life are more likely to just fold and accept their status quo then keep playing. The reverse is true for those born with a great hand.

Its so much easier to go to college if your parents pay for it. It's so much easier to do your homework in an environment where your parents make you. The majority of rich and poor kids don't care about education in elementary school: and by the time many of them "get it," if your parents haven't been nudging you along the way you simply wont have the tools to compete. (But as Spidey brought up, why isn't this taken care of in a generation or two? I don't know)

It's so much easier for those with wealth to chose wealth.

But something being easier for someone else is no excuse for giving up. It's no excuse for a poor work ethic.

Benjamin Franklin wrote:Those who are good at making excuses are seldom good at anything else.

Spidey wrote:Why can some people come to this country with only a dime in their pockets, work their asses off at low paying jobs, and in only a generation or two, end up in the middle class…while other families remain in poverty generation after generation?

I studied this a little bit in grad school and there actually a really interesting reason for this.The short version is this:

Immigrant families come over and tend to not be accepted into society as easily and native born citizens. This makes it harder for them to get jobs. This forces them to be more entrepreneurial than most. This is one reason why you see so many retail stores (liquor, hair salons, nail parlors, laundry mats, etc) owned by foreign born people.

This isn't the only reason but it plays a big part.

If someone believes they can't chose to increase their wealth and achieve it by their own action it could be because they have been taught they are victims of the successful and won't be allowed to succeed. There is a movement in this country to breed and perpetuate a class of people who fit this category for political purposes. If not a movement certainly at the least it is the net result of some very selfish and negligent leadership from those who supposedly champion the group.

People may also remain at the bottom of the success scale due to mental deficiency or because they are lazy or addicted to life wrecking drugs...but then only the first of those three reasons isn't a choice to stay poor.
I think that 'someguy' is way wrong and I question his motive for thinking the way he does. Does he need to rationalize his failure to improve his own position or does he need the victims to rationalize his ideology?

I get the feeling that this discussion isn't going to be quite as 'rich' here, compared with your other bulliton board.

Gooberman wrote:I get the feeling that this discussion isn't going to be quite as 'rich' here, compared with your other bulliton board.

Your probably right I posted it here as well as on .com just to see the differences in the arguments.

you can't black and white this issue, just like any issue

poverty a choice for some? yes.
homeless a choice for some? many admit so. this is in a lot of documentaries, not all its still their preference.

When you say rich as a choice, you are assuming this person has equal opportunities and value-sets to you.

A good example is someone who at 15 is the oldest of 6 kids and their father dies, and the family is already poor. The kid has to drop out of high school working min wage jobs, never gets an education, and has to basically help support everyone for another 15 years and bam he's a 30 year old high school dropout with no education... pretty tough to get rich in this spot, but i guess he could if he REALLY wanted, ditch his family and go on his own. You're right its a choice, but a choice I hope none of us would make.

No, it’s not a good example…it’s an extreme one. And everyone in this discussion on both boards, already concede that kind of point.

The trick in that guys case, would be to help the next generation get out.

JFTR…most families in poverty \"start out\" without a father in the household.

Birdseye wrote:you can't black and white this issue, just like any issue

poverty a choice for some? yes.
homeless a choice for some? many admit so. this is in a lot of documentaries, not all its still their preference.

When you say rich as a choice, you are assuming this person has equal opportunities and value-sets to you.

A good example is someone who at 15 is the oldest of 6 kids and their father dies, and the family is already poor. The kid has to drop out of high school working min wage jobs, never gets an education, and has to basically help support everyone for another 15 years and bam he's a 30 year old high school dropout with no education... pretty tough to get rich in this spot, but i guess he could if he REALLY wanted, ditch his family and go on his own. You're right its a choice, but a choice I hope none of us would make.

A good point but the question is, is it possible to chose to move from poverty to wealth and the answer is yes. It may not always be the right choice as you showed but the opportunity is there even for the guy in your scenario. The idea that one can't make that move even if he wants to is the lie that some people profit from selling.

First off money is an illusion. To be rich in the term you're using means money or other items of wealth. Which is controlled by the perception of something is worth something. So if a person making 7.75 who owns his own house and just has to pay utilities is a person that is rich. When compared to a person who is in hock up to his eye brows with his homes and cars and makes 200,000 a year.

it seems to me the choice is being made for us. there was a time in this country when you could work your self out of being poor,

\"Early to bed, Early to rise, makes a man Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise\"

But today if your Lazy dont worry Uncle sam will supply all your needs. we have free or reduced housing, we have free or reduced food stamps, and soon we'll have free or reduced healthcare.

But if your wealthy tough do-do where gonna tax it all away, OR pass legislation that makes it illegal to pay you those high salaries.

I feel this \"Land of Opportunity\" is soon to be no more

So imagine you and 3 other people are poor. You live a poor type life for years and years, and you're tired of it. You go out, work all day, every day at some job and slowly work your way up-or you put your mind to a problem and think of some million dollar idea or whatever. You've pulled yourself out. Congratulations!

Meanwhile, the other 3 people decide they don't feel like trying to get out, or they don't think they can, so they don't try.

The American government, in our *cough* capitalist economy, takes your money and gives it to the 3 people who decided to do no work. After all, trickle-down economics is eeeevil.

Wealth or poverty are choices to the same extent that sickness and health are. There are things you can do and ways you can behave to have the best chances at being healthy, but sometimes it is completely out of your power and you just get sick.

A librarian I knew was very prudent with her health, she ate well, exercised, never smoked, etc. She died a couple years ago from lung cancer.

Wealth is often a choice, poverty often isn't.

dissent wrote:Some of the monetarily "poor" are among the wealthiest of hearts and some of the wealthiest in money are among the poorest of souls.

SO true!

Krom wrote:Wealth or poverty are choices to the same extent that sickness and health are. There are things you can do and ways you can behave to have the best chances at being healthy, but sometimes it is completely out of your power and you just get sick.

I think this is a very good analogy.

Just like with health, we don't all have equal starting points.

Some people are born into so much wealth that they would have to really work at it to lose it all in one lifetime, and many DO make that choice, and we see great fortunes blown.

Some people are born into such bad and sad situations that it takes an unbelievable amount of work just to get their heads above water, let alone become wealthy, and yet, some DO work that hard and not only survive, but excel.

But where I think Krom's analogy works best is in pointing out that sometimes circumstances beyond your control dictate the results. Stupid lazy people occasionally get rich by luck. An industrious and hard working person can be brought down by natural disaster, expensive family illnesses, or outright fraud.

Choice is a VERY important element in wealth and poverty, but just like with health, its not the ONLY element.

Will Robinson wrote:

Birdseye wrote:you can't black and white this issue, just like any issue

poverty a choice for some? yes.
homeless a choice for some? many admit so. this is in a lot of documentaries, not all its still their preference.

When you say rich as a choice, you are assuming this person has equal opportunities and value-sets to you.

A good example is someone who at 15 is the oldest of 6 kids and their father dies, and the family is already poor. The kid has to drop out of high school working min wage jobs, never gets an education, and has to basically help support everyone for another 15 years and bam he's a 30 year old high school dropout with no education... pretty tough to get rich in this spot, but i guess he could if he REALLY wanted, ditch his family and go on his own. You're right its a choice, but a choice I hope none of us would make.

A good point but the question is, is it possible to chose to move from poverty to wealth and the answer is yes. It may not always be the right choice as you showed but the opportunity is there even for the guy in your scenario. The idea that one can't make that move even if he wants to is the lie that some people profit from selling.

We basically agree, I just wouldn't smooth over the moral choice that much. I think it's pretty important when considering the cycle of poverty.


I'll also postulate that a lot of people get rich fairly easily and a lot of the people that are rich if given the SAME opportunities as poor people would also be poor. Sometimes the work to get to the top is HARD work that not everyone is willing to do.