DescentBB

So what does everyone think about this?

Any clues as to how big the crowd was?

Do you think this will change any minds in Washington?

Here's what a real politically savvy talking head in the state I reside in thinks.

Eric Zorn wrote: What to make of the big Tea Party rally in D.C.?

Remember when the Iraq War protests stopped the Iraq War? Yeah. Me neither. Nor, for that matter, does Fox News, or Rush Limbaugh, which leaves me a bit confused by their joyous reaction to the Tea Party that took place in Washington on Sunday. Estimates peg it somewhere between 30,000 and 50,000 people, which makes it an admirable bit of organizing, but not a contender for the protest hall of fame... Ezra Kline, Washington Post


Several people have written today triumphantly claiming the crowd in D.C. was actually 2 million people, to why my answer is, as it always is to such protests large and small:

So? Do you think rallies are a better measure of public opinion than scientific polls and election results? And either way, do you expect me to change my mind based on the size of the crowd or the volume with which they speak?

Would you change your mind if an even larger crowd turned out to voice the opposing point of view? Gee, I hope not.

Protests are fine ways of firing up supporters, attracting the curious, motivating the less motivated and so on. I have nothing against them, but they don't prove much to me.

Apparently the people that attended have no bearing on the debate according to Mr. Zorn. Eric Zorn is one of the lackeys that kowtow to the politically connected Chicagoans that run this state.

Well I have news for Mr. Zorn, the tea party is to be respected even in this state. Mark my words, heads will roll in this state and every other state that has politicians that refuse to listen to the REAL mandate which is afoot at this time in history.

Pass ONE more bill unread and you are going to be unemployed and NOT very well liked.

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_co ... in-dc.html

Just more sour grapes from the people who live to protest.

I wonder how many of these people, and they're mostly older white Americans at these rallies, realize that these 'astroturf' rallies are being organized by the likes of Freedom Works, headed by Dick Army, who has lobbied in the past for big Pharma at the behest of the DLA Piper lobbying firm? He was asked to resign by said firm when he began his fight against health care reform, since obviously there would be the appearance and impropriety of a conflict of interest.

Monkeywrench Works

So an “astroturf” protest is one that is “organized” and a \"grassroots\" one is where thousands of people \"spontaneously\" show up at the same place, at the same time, with the same thing in mind?

Interesting link {url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... ation.html]HERE[/url]. It's a UK site where the Tab title says \"Up to 2 million march...\" but the opening line says: \"As many as one million people flooded into Washington for a massive rally organised by conservatives claiming that President Obama is driving America towards socialism.\" typo?

at anyrate, most picts and vid I've found shows WELL over 50K. There is one image floating around out there that one blogger posted that apparently is from some rally 10 years ago. It's an aerial with the Washington monument about center and the the sun is shining from lower right.
Shame on you Tunnel. Pulling the race card. tisk.

tunnelcat wrote:I wonder how many of these people, and they're mostly older white Americans at these rallies...

What the hell is the significance of their race? Seriously, what exactly are you trying to say regarding the racial make up of the group?

And regarding the "astroturfing" allegation, it has proven out through all these town halls and tea parties etc that the democrats are the ones who have to use labor unions to muster bodies to show up. The fact that a special interest wants to see the event happen doesn't prove there is no grass roots support to attend the event.

You really only see what you want to see. What are they to you...nothing but a bunch of racists who show up whenever the RNC lackeys send them an email?

From what I've seen they are motivated voters acting on their own, the epitome of grass roots.

WR wrote:What the hell is the significance of their race? Seriously, what exactly are you trying to say regarding the racial make up of the group?

I don't want to derail the thread, but doesn't it ever make you pause and reflect?

Oh, I think racism IS at the core. Take a long slow gander at all those 'teapartyers' you see on TV and tell me what percentage are young, black, hispanic or some other ethnicity or age OTHER than middle-aged, old age and/or white. There's a smattering of a few, but not many. There seems to be a MUCH more vocal and visceral personal hatred of this president than I've ever seen with any other President, even with Clinton or gasp, \"I'm not a crook\" Nixon.

Obama's no different than any other Democrat or liberal who's held the office of President, but these rallies seem much more polarized, spiteful and hateful with directed vehement PERSONAL attacks on Obama's person, not just your standard political trashing presidents usually get. Much more than just a 'socialist or liberal agenda' would warrant. BUT, he's the first 'black' president of the U.S. and I think racism is rearing it's ugly head in the form of fear, loathing and hate now surfacing in a certain segment of the U.S. white population, mostly older and white, although not exclusive too it, and 'some' Republicans are using it and stoking it to a fever pitch.

The reason I can them 'astroturf rallies' is because most of them have some kind of powerful political leader(s) or corporate involvement or sponsorship behind them. Anti-global warming rallies, Oil companies have their fingers in the pie. Anti-healthcare reform, health insurance and drug companies, ditto. When I think of 'grassroots', I think of individuals or common people, not leaders or corporations, that start a movement or movements. And yes, liberals have been guilty of 'astroturfing' too. Think Greenpeace, PETA or even Labor Unions, large, powerful organizations, not individuals. It's a new coinage of a word, but I think a very good descriptive one.

Yea well, the Republican party is the demographic you describe…but that can’t be it…must be racist.

And speaking of personal, yup got that right!

Here, reflect on this:

What percentage of voters who are opposed to Obama's POLICY are non white?!?

Blacks are almost all democrats and Latino's not far from that ratio. They are each a small percentage of the population...thus the term \"minority\" applies to them! Two minorities that VOTE DEMOCRAT practically unanimously so just how many do you think are available to join the protesters?

Your allegation assumes there would be more Black and Latino protesters if the motive wasn't racial hatred.

Tell me what ratio of Black and Latino among the protesters would make you change your mind and is that ratio supported by the ratio of conservative black and Latino voters?

You just abandon logic at will to fuel your assumptions and own prejudices.
If the only tool you have is a hammer pretty soon every problem becomes a nail....

I can tell the beginning was aimed at me, but then you either jumped to TB or made pretty broad assumptions of my one sentence (question).

Your allegation assumes there would be more Black and Latino protesters if the motive wasn't racial hatred.

For a somewhat racial neutral category such as health care or tax reform, I think there would be more Black and Latino protesters if the republican party would abandon and distance themselves from certain groups within its population.

Conservative leaders have no quarrels with using sects of the conservative party whom do have issues with Obama's race as kindling to start larger movements.

It is the convenient compliance with those whom set the rules for rallying the base that drive away like-minded minorities. It is quite similar to the frustration many feel towards those who practice Islam peacefully--for not taking a more active role in rooting out, and standing up against, the radicals.

A wise man wrote:No matter what
you do or say
they'll call you racist
anyway.

Unless you've got something better than "That crowd looked kinda white to me" . . . I'm just gonna roll my eyes at you.


-------

There's some dispute over the size of the crowd, but the pictures seem pretty convincing. It was huge. I'm no professional crowd estimator, but hundreds of thousands seems conservative to me.

It also looks to me like it was a pretty ideologically diverse crowd. For me, the signs run the gamut from "hell yeah" to "what are you smoking?" Your mileage may vary. Nonetheless, the theme--which I'd loosely characterize as "get your government out of my hair"--is one that makes me smile.

Mostly I'm impressed that the movement has gotten so big. In some ways, it makes sense. The Republicans alienated a lot of their base by going Big Government at the end--and that's still a fresh memory. And the Big Government Democrats don't seem to be doing well, either. There seems to be a lot of apartisan desire to throw everyone out, start over, shrink government. I know that resonates with a lot of folks right now -- it sure resonates with me. And I've seen a lot of hints lately that people who've never been involved in politics in their lives have been doing things like attending protests.

Still. Still. That's a lot of folks. I had no idea.

The libertarianish side of me almost dares to hope for the emergence and persistance of a coalition that says Shrink Government and means it. This looks very promising.

I might as well turn racist if every time I disagree with the president I get called racist.

Edit: http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/? ... M3NzAxY2I=

1.If you think Obama's the most liberal member of the senate you...may be a racist.

2.If you object to Obama raising your payroll, capital gains and estate taxes you...may be a racist.

3.If you'd prefer a president have at least some foreign policy experience you...may be a racist.

4. If you're in favor of drilling for oil and building nuclear power plants you...may be a racist.

5. If you think \"Vero Possemus\" is Latin for \"Massive Ego\" you... may be a racist.

6. If you wonder why Obama was hanging around William Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn you...may be a racist.

7. If your pastor is nothing like Rev. Wright or Father Pfleger you... may be a racist.

8.If you don't want the majority of justices on the Supreme Court to be like Stephen Breyer you...may be a racist.

9. If you're not impressed with Obama's 100% NARAL rating you...may be a racist.

10. If you're not sure whether Obama opposed or supported FISA reauthorization you...may be a racist.

11. If you don't think America is a \"downright mean\" country you...may be a racist.

12. If you think Obama should've visited wounded troops at Ramstein and Landstuhl you...may be a racist.

13. If you think the surge is working and that's a good thing you...may be a racist.

14. If you oppose racial preferences in employment, school admissions and contracting you...may be a racist.

15. If you think \"we are the change we've been waiting for\" is a line from a Monty Python skit you...may be a racist.

16. If you prefer that a president have a smidgen of executive experience you...may be a racist.

17. If you're appalled that Obama voted against treating infants born after an abortion attempt the same medically as other infants born alive you...may be a racist.

18. If you were proud of your country even before Obama's candidacy you...may be a racist.

20. If you don't think American troops are just \"air raiding villages\" you...may be a racist.

21. If your grandmother isn't a \"typical white person\" you...may be a racist.

22. If you don't think rural, working class people are bitter and \"cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them\" you...may be a racist.

23. If you're not sure invading Pakistan is a particularly good idea—what with their nuclear weapons and all— you...may be a racist.

24. If you don't want the president to meet without precondition with the leaders of state sponsors of terror you...may be a racist.

25. If you don't care how Hollywood or the European elite think you should vote you...may be a racist.

tunnelcat wrote: Obama's no different than any other Democrat or liberal who's held the office of President, ...

Nah, I don't think this is the case at all.

From the campaign, where he attempted to develop credentials as being a centrist, and for which he received a free pass from from the fawning and compliant media, and then so far has seemed to govern from about as far left as he could go without just giving up all pretense and wearing his Che t-shirt in public,

to the grand way he has talked out of both sides of his mouth (during the campaign he slammed Clinton for having an insurance mandate, but now he thinks mandates are cool) (we've got to get health care right, but hurry, hurry, hurry we've got to pass this bill right now ...) etc etc,

to his appointment of myriad unvetted czars to further his policy agendas, and all of the competence that has so far flowed forth from their decisions,

No, I think a lot of the negative feedback that President Obama is getting is based on plain old distrust.

Drakona wrote:

A wise man wrote:No matter what
you do or say
they'll call you racist
anyway.

Unless you've got something better than "That crowd looked kinda white to me" . . . I'm just gonna roll my eyes at you.


-------

There's some dispute over the size of the crowd, but the pictures seem pretty convincing. It was huge. I'm no professional crowd estimator, but hundreds of thousands seems conservative to me.

It also looks to me like it was a pretty ideologically diverse crowd. For me, the signs run the gamut from "hell yeah" to "what are you smoking?" Your mileage may vary. Nonetheless, the theme--which I'd loosely characterize as "get your government out of my hair"--is one that makes me smile.

Mostly I'm impressed that the movement has gotten so big. In some ways, it makes sense. The Republicans alienated a lot of their base by going Big Government at the end--and that's still a fresh memory. And the Big Government Democrats don't seem to be doing well, either. There seems to be a lot of apartisan desire to throw everyone out, start over, shrink government. I know that resonates with a lot of folks right now -- it sure resonates with me. And I've seen a lot of hints lately that people who've never been involved in politics in their lives have been doing things like attending protests.

Still. Still. That's a lot of folks. I had no idea.

The libertarianish side of me almost dares to hope for the emergence and persistance of a coalition that says Shrink Government and means it. This looks very promising.

I've seen that pict in my searching and is probably the most compelling. That's well over 50K. We've 100K at the airshow and it wasn't that many. Also, from the interviews I've browsed over that was quite an amalgamation of groups there. The Tea Party organized it and posted it on the net. There are a number of groups that have learned to watch for such events and join in. So Drak, you guys have room for more people in that party?

Dissent, the number of Czars is truly frightening. These are people that are accountable to NO ONE, save the Pres and he won't give a rats fuzzy back side. There are 44 of these puppets. That is far FAR more than any other president has ever assigned. They completely usurp our chain of command. Great catch on slamming Clinton. I'd forgotten about that.

Crowd estimate from Pajamas Media. Pay special attention to comment #36: \"The thing is that a good bit of the Mall was reserved by another event; the real pictures from Saturday have a whole lot of people at the Capitol end, a whole lot of people along the sides, and big empty rectangles roped off.\" So that at least gives you a way to identify legitimate aerial photos (and not get fooled by the one from the Promise Keepers rally.)

Moderate in the Middle includes a lot of photos.

DC Metro rail ridership -- much lower than for the Obama inaguration, but still about 100k too high for the average saturday (bus ridership appears to be 236,347 every Saturday.)

Seems pretty clear to me that the estimates of 60-70k are low, and 1.7-2 million are high. We're definitely looking in the multiple hundreds of thousands range.

That’s a lot of \"angry white men\".

Duper wrote:So Drak, you guys have room for more people in that party?

Oh, I wasn't there. Sorry if I implied otherwise. I'm more an empathetic spectator than anything at this point. If they do something in Seattle, I might go, but D.C. . . . well . . . I'm a bit too busy for that.

Though I'd be lyin' if I told you I wasn't tempted when I first heard about it.

Drakona wrote:

Duper wrote:So Drak, you guys have room for more people in that party?

Oh, I wasn't there. Sorry if I implied otherwise. I'm more an empathetic spectator than anything at this point. If they do something in Seattle, I might go, but D.C. . . . well . . . I'm a bit too busy for that.

Though I'd be lyin' if I told you I wasn't tempted when I first heard about it.

no no..I meant:

Drakona wrote: The libertarianish side of me almost dares to hope for the emergence and persistence of a coalition that says Shrink Government and means it. This looks very promising.

I've been considering joining that party, I need to look into them further.

Be careful to check out more than just their economic platform, Duper. There are a number of things I like about conservative Libertarian ideas, but they often come with some social and ethical stances that I find pretty strange.

Exactly, and thanks. Those are the things I want to look into.

Duper wrote:

Drakona wrote: The libertarianish side of me almost dares to hope for the emergence and persistence of a coalition that says Shrink Government and means it. This looks very promising.

I've been considering joining that party, I need to look into them further.

Neither of us are affiliated with the (capital-L) Libertarian party; they're a little bit wacky. We both have (small-l) libertarian tendencies. Those like us have seen Bush and Obama, and Republican and Democrat congresses, go exactly the opposite direction, towards big and wasteful government.

IMO, that's why the "Tea Party" movement is reasonably popular. The recent protest in Washington wasn't made up of college students, bums, or paid agitators; it was made up of people with jobs and families who don't want the government taking their money and squandering it on feel-good, accomplish-nothing projects.

Lothar wrote:....

IMO, that's why the "Tea Party" movement is reasonably popular. The recent protest in Washington wasn't made up of college students, bums, or paid agitators; it was made up of people with jobs and families who don't want the government taking their money and squandering it on feel-good, accomplish-nothing projects.

Which is code speak for 'racist bastards'

Will Robinson wrote:

Lothar wrote:....

IMO, that's why the "Tea Party" movement is reasonably popular. The recent protest in Washington wasn't made up of college students, bums, or paid agitators; it was made up of people with jobs and families who don't want the government taking their money and squandering it on feel-good, accomplish-nothing projects.

Which is code speak for 'racist bastards'

wait a minute I'm a member of the Racist Bastard Party.

RBP…has a nice ring…

YA and I dont need to remove the (R) from my voter registration card

LOL!

Here's my take:

Washington doesn't care about the people anymore.

No lessons learned.

Try swallowing after you are fined for not buying \"healthcare\" from the gubment.

This is what really irks me about all this broo ha ha. I SHOULD be able to decide if I want \"healthcare\" provided BY ME!

Don't TELL me I have to have it PERIOD! Or ELSE! What you are gonna get from me is a BUNCH of ER visits using fake SSNs PERIOD! Hell I may even exercise MY RIGHT to carry in the ER! I SWEAR I WILL NOT BE that WOMAN that DIES waiting for service! http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=1666

The fines are going to seem cheap after they remove the right to restrict who can get insurance (pre existing conditions), or the lifetime caps…

Welcome to 1500 dollar a month insurance!

Yea, you will be able to keep the insurance you have now…if you’re rich!

CUDA wrote:I'm a member of the Racist Bastard Party.

That. Would. Be. So. Excessively. Awesome.

We could start threads where we supported the most random things as racist. "I like tea kettles -- they're so racist! I like Bambi because it's racist!" The only trouble would be coming up with stuff as rediculous as what people actually say.

But the best part is that a certain crowd would totally take us seriously.