Racism, bigotry and hatred are alive and well in the Right-Wing Christian fringe and it's definitely directed at Obama. I saw this on CNN the other night and it's downright scary. This crazy pastor makes Fred Phelps look tame and there are people that drink this crap up and agree with it!
The CNN story first.
Here's the Steven Anderson interview with Signorile on his radio show.
Remember the guy openly carrying the assault rifle at the anti-Obama rally mentioned in the other thread here? He BELONGS to this pastor's church!
Re: Death Wish
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:38 pm
by AlphaDoG
tunnelcat wrote:
Remember the guy openly carrying the assault rifle at the anti-Obama rally mentioned in the other thread here? He BELONGS to this pastor's church!
LOL@CNN! Oh and btw, the man carrying the assault rifle at the rally was an african american!
Are you saying THAT man is a racist as well?
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:44 pm
by CUDA
and its just as bad on the left your just to blind to want to see it,
Can you say Jeremiah Wright,
can you say Black Panthers,
how about the Black liberation army,
or the Nation of Islam,
or maybe we'll go with the Chicano and point to the Brown Beret's
or the Chinese equivalent the Red Guard.
open your eyes TC you CANNOT be that Naive
See . . . this is what I was talking about in that other thread about seeing racism everywhere.
You describe the clip as racist. The CNN guy, when he's (lulz) speculating on the guy's motives, does the same. I remember someone doing some background research on the group and saying they were racist, and they're extremist enough that that's plausible, so I even believed it. But I listened very carefully to both your clips and did not hear anything racist at all--and I was expecting it.
They cut off the sermon before the guy gets to telling us why he prays for Obama's death, and then they speculate on his reasons. But if you listen to a full sermon (not the same one -- but at least there's more information there), he'll tell you his reasons, so you don't have to speculate. They're policy reasons: that he supports abortion, gay rights, communism, and . . . er, apparently food stamps. (Well, I didn't say I was defending him or that he's sane ). And FWIW, he's not a whole lot nicer to Bush, when he mentions him. The guy perceives Obama as a thief and murderer, and hence prays for his death--with biblical precedent, as the Psalmist prayed for the death of those who practiced evil.
Now, the CNN guy implies that these views are widespread on the right, which I'd say is just a little farfetched. I'm not defending him. But I'm making a narrow point: the views have been consistently misrepresented to support a fantasy narrative about hatred and racism, and to imply a threat that isn't there.
The call is not for murder, but for what the pastor perceives as divine justice.
Steven Anderson wrote:Let me tell you something - somebody needs to abort Barack Obama. It's true. Now, I'm not to do it. I'm not saying vigilanteism. I'm not saying that somebody should go kill. I'm saying there should be a government in this country that, you know, under God's authority, that takes Barack Obama and aborts him. On television. For everybody to see in the whole world.
Did you hear me ?
Now, I'm not saying I'm going to do it. I'm not a vigilante. But I'm going to tell you something - if there was any justice in this country, if the judicial branch of this country meant ANYTHING they would take Barack Obama and all of his colleagues and take them and they would abort him. They would melt him like a snail. That's what they - they'd break the teeth out of his head, my friends...
And you say, `oh, I can't believe you're threatening the president,' I'm not saying I'm going to do it, I just wish God would do it. And he will do it, my friends. And I wish we had a government that would act on God's behalf. Like the government is supposed to do. You know, the government is supposed to carry out God's law - enforce God's laws against murder, against stealing, against lying, against deceit, against adultery. That's the purpose of human government.
It's certainly an extremist view, but it's not a direct threat. Nor does it seem to me to spring from an irrational hatred. It springs from a desire to see justice enacted on someone he perceives as a murderer.
Nor is it racist. Race is mentioned only in closing . . . and in a way that made me laugh.
Steven Anderson wrote:You know... and, this has nothing to do with race. I'm so sick and tired of people calling me a racist for being against Barack Obama. You know, I thought we were past that in this country. You know what I mean ? Let it go ! I love all people equally - red, yellow, black and white - they're Christians inside - I've won more black people to the Lord, probably, than I've won white people to the Lord my friend. I love black people, I want to see them saved. I want to get them the Gospel. I have very close friends, right now, that are black.
One of my best friends is black. But, you know what ? I'm not going to sit there and dwell on it and cry about it. Let's get over it. They're perpetuating the hatred between races by bringing it up all the time. Oh WOW - you know, the first black president ! No he's not - he's white.
He's just as white as he is black. He's half black, half white. But, yet, he's just BLACK, BLACK, BLACK. Why not say he's white ? I mean, if he's half black and half white, I'm going to say he's white. That's the half I want to chase ! You know ?
I'm calling him a white man. We have a white president coming in, my friend.
He's WHITE !
Don't tell me he's black, he's WHITE
His mom is WHITE. Her mom is WHITE ! Her dad is WHITE ! His parents are WHITE.
He's a WHITE MAN !
Barack Obama is WHITE... DEAL with it !
See . . . all this accusition of racism in people opposing the president. Y'all have to stoop to quoting an obscure crazy preacher, and when I go look him up . . . even he's not racist.
Keep trying. . .
Re: Death Wish
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:19 pm
by Duper
tunnelcat wrote:Racism, bigotry and hatred are alive and well in the Right-Wing Christian fringe and it's definitely directed at Obama. ...
TC, comeon. that's as bigoted as what you're hollering about. That kinda nuttiness exists on both sides. The Left hates Just as much, they hold a different sign. I think "fringe" is a bit of an understatement.
Re: Death Wish
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:58 pm
by Will Robinson
tunnelcat wrote:Racism, bigotry and hatred are alive and well in the Right-Wing Christian fringe..
OK, let's go ahead and accept your twisted interpretation of what is racism. You notice you said "fringe".... well you did so with good reason because on the fringe you can find all sorts of completely illogical wacko people.
You should ask yourself why you desperately focus on that fringe straw man instead of the substance of the opposition.
I think it is because when you do you see the weakness of your position.
CNN wants you to focus on the straw man because they are heavily invested ideologically in Obama, what are you getting out of your irrational blank check support of him?
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:40 pm
by dissent
remember THIS famous strawman (and what he was wishing for)
Re: Death Wish
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:53 am
by Tunnelcat
AlphaDoG wrote:
tunnelcat wrote:
Remember the guy openly carrying the assault rifle at the anti-Obama rally mentioned in the other thread here? He BELONGS to this pastor's church!
LOL@CNN! Oh and btw, the man carrying the assault rifle at the rally was an african american!
Are you saying THAT man is a racist as well?
No, he's a crazy, dangerous religious BIGOT that's forgotten all about the hate against his own race! He's a MORON, along with his moronic, hateful Pastor!
Typical reaction here. I wasn't saying that crazy left-wing fringe groups didn't exist. I was pointing out that there are crazy right-wingers running around right now, IN PUBLIC, that are probably a threat to the President (and to others they see immoral in their minds). They're out there openly carrying guns to flaunt, taunt and stir up the hate pot in this country. Oh and they're NOT getting arrested either for making death threats. I'm willing to bet that Bush would've had these bozos arrested if they were leftie crazies and anywhere NEAR him.
You all then blow off my pointing out these crazy right-wingers and immediately just come back with a list all the crazy left-wingers to prove some point. Deflection and denial.
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:15 pm
by Hostile
Oh My God.... There are two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch.
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:16 pm
by Hostile
Woohoo! Double Post..... I think it's my first one...
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:34 pm
by CUDA
Funny I dont remember you trying to out any of those Crazy left wingers when they were making attacks on GW.
Do you remember
Cindy Sheehan, who camped out at the entrance then President Bush's residence in Crawford texas for 4 months much of the time while the president himslef was there.
Code Pink. who have regularly verbaly attacked the President and physically attacked military recruiter stations in San Fransisco
George Soros, Nuf said
Jeremiah Wright, our current President's PERSONAL friend and Pastor of over 20 years, who himself preaches hate against the white man from his Pulpit.
Will you say anything bad about those peoples actions???
While agree that this Pastors actions are reprehensible and indefensible. singling out one side and a fringe side at that and subliminaly labeling ALL Christians as racist and bigoted is just as reprehensible.
TC wrote:Deflection and denial.
well we learned it from the left
its actually facts, and pointing out your intentional omission of the other "Fringe"
If you had mentioned that it was a problem on Both side in your original post, many here would have probably been more acceptant of the point you were trying to make.
Re:
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:45 pm
by Lothar
CUDA wrote:agree that this Pastors actions are reprehensible and indefensible
... but not racially motivated.
I must apologize. I previously claimed the group was racist, because I allowed others to do my thinking for me. I believed the "omg they're against Obama and they're hateful so they must be RACIST" hype put out by CNN and LGF and didn't check for myself. I was wrong.
Reprehensible, indefensible, moronic, but not racist. (At least, there's nothing more than innuendo that points to racism at this time; if legitimate evidence of racism comes out I will of course change my opinion.)
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:57 pm
by Will Robinson
tunnelcat wrote:...They're out there openly carrying guns to flaunt, taunt and stir up the hate pot in this country. Oh and they're NOT getting arrested either for making death threats...
Is there anyone out there flaunting his gun and threatening Obama's life that isn't in jail?
Or are you combining two different people and misrepresenting what one of them said to try and create a bogeyman that will support your rhetoric?
I think you are referring to one guy who legally carried a gun in public - no crime - no arrest
And another who prays/wishes/desires Obama to die - again no crime no arrest
I'd love to be able to see what your reaction would be if Bush had someone arrested for those actions! I can tell you you would be singing a different tune altogether!
How about Craig Kilborn, should Bush have arrested him for the snipers wanted bit he did?
If he had would you be up on that high horse you're on right now screaming 'Hell yea bust that liberal fool'!!
I didn't think so....
Re:
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:46 pm
by Bet51987
Will Robinson wrote:..And another who prays/wishes/desires Obama to die - again no crime no arrest
TC isn't wrong. Those, like this Pastor, who preaches to his congregation his wishes and desires for Obama to die can be guilty of incitement if one of those who attend his church gets worked up enough to kill for his pastor. It's happened before...
Bettina
Re:
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:58 pm
by CUDA
Bet51987 wrote:
Will Robinson wrote:..And another who prays/wishes/desires Obama to die - again no crime no arrest
TC isn't wrong. Those, like this Pastor, who preaches to his congregation his wishes and desires for Obama to die can be guilty of incitement if one of those who attend his church gets worked up enough to kill for his pastor. It's happened before...
Bettina
do you feel the same way about Rev Wright????
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:14 pm
by Tunnelcat
Rev. Wright doesn't get a pass either, in my book, and I HAVE said in the past that I don't agree with his foul rhetoric. He also fits into this next category. Any person who claims to speak for God and then advocates death to an individual(s) because they don't fit their moral or religious compass or particular view of the Bible, is not just a moron, but EVIL, because they are fomenting their hatred to larger groups that could result in mayhem or violence towards others. Not exactly Godly.
Will, you don't have to commit a crime to get arrested by the Secret Service. All it takes is a Presidential order or perceived threat to the President. I remember a few years ago when people were being arrested for just wearing 'STOP THE WAR' t-shirts when Bush came to a city for an event. It even happened in my small town during an anti-war protest. Remember 'loyalty oaths' just to get into one of Bush's events, all because he didn't want to hear any hecklers? So why does the Secret Service even ALLOW people to carry guns anywhere NEAR a Presidential visit NOW, but back under Bush, they used to arrest others that wore anti-war t-shirts????????? This gun-toting idiot associated with a crazy death-advocating Pastor and his church certainly falls into that category. So, are they shirking their duties to Obama or is he more tolerant than Bush was?
tunnelcat wrote: they used to arrest others that wore anti-war t-shirts?????????
Link??? there has got to more to it that just wearing an anti-war T-Shirt. smells like BS to me
Re:
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:59 pm
by Bet51987
CUDA wrote:
Bet51987 wrote:
Will Robinson wrote:..And another who prays/wishes/desires Obama to die - again no crime no arrest
TC isn't wrong. Those, like this Pastor, who preaches to his congregation his wishes and desires for Obama to die can be guilty of incitement if one of those who attend his church gets worked up enough to kill for his pastor. It's happened before...
Bettina
do you feel the same way about Rev Wright????
Yes I do.
And, why are you asking TC for another link. Just google "bush protesters arrested" and you will find what TC was talking about.
Bee
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:24 pm
by CUDA
because thats how it work. if you make an accusation you provide the link
Re:
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:15 pm
by Bet51987
CUDA wrote:because thats how it work. if you make an accusation you provide the link
Hmmmmm... She DID provide a link Cuda. Maybe your browser only recognizes links with FOXNEWS in the header.
Bee
Re:
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:16 pm
by Lothar
Bet51987 wrote:why are you asking TC for another link. Just google "bush protesters arrested" and you will find what TC was talking about
... among dozens of other stories about protesters being arrested for various other reasons. TC's specific link doesn't show up on the first ten pages of google using your phrase (with or without quotes).
You should make it a habit to post links when making an accusation, simply because it saves other people the effort of having to dig around to figure out what you're talking about.
-----
For the details of the story: the couple was arrested under a city trespassing ordinance during a July 4, 2004 visit by Bush to Charleston. In particular, they were arrested after being told by city police that if they were going to protest they had to relocate to the protest area. Their refusal to relocate led to the officers arresting them for trespassing, at the request of the secret service. They later won a lawsuit ($80,000) due to the fact that the city trespassing ordinance didn't apply to the statehouse.
So it turns out they were arrested without having committed the crime they were arrested for, because the officers messed up a technical point regarding the statehouse not being covered by city ordinances. And because the arrest was wrong, they were awarded a nice sum of money.
In the case of gun-guy or crazy-pastor-guy, they haven't committed a crime, and therefore can't be arrested... unless the police and/or secret service misinterpret some law to say they really DID commit a crime, in which case, they could sue and should win the lawsuit. So, expanding Will Robinson's point: no crime - no arrest, and if there is an arrest, win your lawsuit against the arresting agency.
-----
Bettina claims that the pastor can be guilty of incitement. In short, incitement is attempting to convince another person to commit an act which would be illegal for them to commit. (They don't actually have to do it, you just have to try to get them to.)
Given the specific things he's said, I don't think he's guilty of incitement. It requires you to actually intend for someone else to commit some crime, not merely for you to say something that led someone else to commit that crime. As far as I can tell, there's nothing in his speech that shows an intent for anyone but God to kill Obama, and God doesn't fall under any court's jurisdiction. Therefore, legally speaking, the guy is free and clear. Now, if he said "I wish someone would kill Obama" rather than "I wish God would kill Obama" things would be different.
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:46 pm
by Insurrectionist
Wow arrest for a anti Bush tee shirt or Sixth Grader Suspended for wearing an Anti Obama tee shirt
[rant]Does not matter today haven't you been told by your leaders enough already the the US Constitution is dead. You are no longer allowed to do anything with out big brother stepping all over your toes. Hell you won't even be able to wipe your A** with out some bureaucrat wanting to do an inspection just to make sure you are eating the right foods.
Nice going American Voters. Look at the freakn mess we have created. Maybe you need to stop and go look at the real problem, all you have to do is go look in the freakn mirror. I know and you know that no one will believe they are the problem so just keep sitting at your little keyboard and keep typing away and blaming things on some one else for all the woes in the US. When it is you the American Voter that cause this whole freakn mess.[/rant]
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:34 am
by CUDA
ah so it was BS, they were arrested for trespassing NOT for wearing anti-Bush T-shirts. nice try tho
ya Bee I have my browser BS settings set to high. that's why when someone posts BS from left wing websites I don't see it. its an available plug in that's easily installed. you can DL it very easily, it only takes a few seconds. FYI the instructions are REALLY complicated. I'm not sure you'll understand. you might need to read through them a few times before you get it.
from TC's link wrote:"Presidents cannot be insulated from dissent," Schneider said.
UHM ya right tell that to the Democrats now that they have control of the white house. Hypocrites all of them
Re:
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:08 pm
by Bet51987
Lothar wrote:... among dozens of other stories about protesters being arrested for various other reasons. TC's specific link doesn't show up on the first ten pages of google using your phrase (with or without quotes).
Clarify please. Are you saying that TC's link was wrong because she said "anti-war t-shirts" but provided a link that said "anti-Bush t-shirts"? Otherwise, I don't understand what you mean. Please tell me it was more than this.
Lothar wrote:Bettina claims that the pastor can be guilty of incitement. In short, incitement is attempting to convince another person to commit an act which would be illegal for them to commit....
I looked it up and you are absolutely right. My apologies. The pastor is not asking a human being to kill Obama.
CUDA wrote:...ah so it was BS, they were arrested for trespassing NOT for wearing anti-Bush T-shirts. nice try tho....
Not even a good try Cuda and your losing control of your emotions...again.
Trespassing may have been the charge the police used in making the arrest but wearing the anti-Bush T-shirts was the motive behind that arrest and that, I believe, is what TC was implying. People were arrested for wearing t-shirts depicting Bush in a bad way.
Bettina
Re:
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:30 pm
by CUDA
Bet51987 wrote:Not even a good try Cuda and your losing control of your emotions...again.
Bettina
LOL your such a child. and I think your wearing out your wink emoticon thinking your being cute.
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:35 pm
by CUDA
well apparently it was a ticketed event. and if ANY of you goto a ticketed event there are clauses on the back of said ticket, which allows the event sponsor to have you removed if you violate those clauses. this couple entered the even with their T-shirts coverd, then once inside remove the covering,they would not have been allowed to enter had they showed the t-shirts upon entry. just like inspecting your cooler. they violated the clause of entry and were asked to leave, then once they were asked to leave they refused. THAT IS WHY THEY WERE ARRESTED. the organizers were with-in their rights to ask them to leave.
was it petty, probably but it was a PRO-Bush rally and they did have the right to do so. if wasn't a political event it wouldnt even be a news worthy story.
About 10 minutes after they displayed their undershirts, two Shelley Moore Capito staffers who were working the event approached them and told the couple they had to take off their T-shirts or leave the event, Jeff Rank said.
\"We tried to explain to them that it was well within our right to stand there and wear these T-shirts, just as people around us had the right to wear pro-Bush and Cheney T-shirts,\" he said.
When it became clear that they were going to be ejected, they sat down and made the officers handcuff them, he said, because they wanted it clear that they were being involuntarily removed.
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:37 pm
by CUDA
well apparently it was a ticketed event. and if ANY of you goto a ticketed event there are clauses on the back of said ticket, which allows the event sponsor to have you removed if you violate those clauses. this couple entered the even with their T-shirts coverd, then once inside remove the covering,they would not have been allowed to enter had they showed the t-shirts upon entry. just like inspecting your cooler. they violated the clause of entry and were asked to leave, then once they were asked to leave they refused. THAT IS WHY THEY WERE ARRESTED. the organizers were with-in their rights to ask them to leave.
was it petty, probably but it was a PRO-Bush rally and they did have the right to do so. if this wasn't a political event it wouldnt even be a news worthy story.
About 10 minutes after they displayed their undershirts, two Shelley Moore Capito staffers who were working the event approached them and told the couple they had to take off their T-shirts or leave the event, Jeff Rank said.
\"We tried to explain to them that it was well within our right to stand there and wear these T-shirts, just as people around us had the right to wear pro-Bush and Cheney T-shirts,\" he said.
When it became clear that they were going to be ejected, they sat down and made the officers handcuff them, he said, because they wanted it clear that they were being involuntarily removed.
Lothar wrote:... among dozens of other stories about protesters being arrested for various other reasons. TC's specific link doesn't show up on the first ten pages of google using your phrase (with or without quotes).
Clarify please. Are you saying that TC's link was wrong
No. I'm saying that, as a general rule, people should provide links. You said that people could just google, and gave the example of googling for "Bush protesters arrested" to find TC's link. But if you had googled for that particular phrase, you would not easily find the link TC gave.
Her link is just fine. But your argument that "you can just google it" is not. Sometimes a story is the first hit when you search the obvious phrase on google, but sometimes it's very difficult to find. In this case, your google phrase wouldn't have found it. So if you're presenting a story as evidence, it's best to provide links.
Trespassing may have been the charge the police used in making the arrest but wearing the anti-Bush T-shirts was the motive behind that arrest
Wearing the anti-Bush T-shirts qualifies as a protest. There was a space set up for protesters. Protesting in the Bush rally but outside of that space was in violation of the rules of the organizers. They were asked to either cover up or leave by the organizers, but they chose not to. The motive wasn't "wearing anti-bush shirts", it was "wearing anti-bush shirts against the request of those organizing the rally, and refusing to leave or cover up when asked to".
Refusing to leave when asked people who have authority over the space IS trespassing. It just so happens that the specific city ordinance cited in the arrest was not applicable for technical reasons. There was every reason to arrest the couple for trespassing, the arrest just was made by the wrong officers citing the wrong law.
Consider the analogous situation: I have every right to wear an anti-gay t-shirt, or an anti-black t-shirt, or an anti-Christian t-shirt, or an anti-people-who-play-Descent t-shirt. But if I'm standing on your property and you don't like my shirt, you can ask me to leave, and if I refuse, I'm trespassing and can be arrested. In that case, it wouldn't be fair to say I was arrested for my shirt. I was asked to leave for my shirt, and I was arrested for refusing to leave.
Let me say that one more time: you can't be arrested for wearing an anti-anybody t-shirt, or for engaging in anti-anybody political speech. But you CAN be arrested for choosing to do those things on someone else's property and refusing to leave. If you say the F word at my grandma's house, she can kick you out, and if you won't leave, she can have you arrested. And schools CAN limit your expression if it's causing (or has significant potential to cause) disruptions to the learning environment.
This whole thing is a non-story.
Re:
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:36 pm
by CUDA
Lothar wrote:
This whole thing is a non-story.
I said the same thing
CUDA wrote:if this wasn't a political event it wouldnt even be a news worthy story.
Re:
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:12 pm
by Bet51987
Lothar wrote:No. I'm saying that, as a general rule, people should provide links. You said that people could just google, and gave the example of googling for "Bush protesters arrested" to find TC's link. But if you had googled for that particular phrase, you would not easily find the link TC gave.
Her link is just fine. But your argument that "you can just google it" is not. Sometimes a story is the first hit when you search the obvious phrase on google, but sometimes it's very difficult to find. In this case, your google phrase wouldn't have found it. So if you're presenting a story as evidence, it's best to provide links.
I chose not to provide a link for two reasons. One, TC already supplied a link to support her claim but Cuda acted as if the link wasn't there. I simply implied that if that link wasn't any good then he should find another.. on his time. Second, I've already mentioned in another thread that I won't provide links to certain members anymore because they get thrown back as being biased. Political links don't work here no matter how truthful they are.
It wasn't just the issue of this being a non-story, it was the issue of ignoring links. I also agree with the rest of your post so I can't argue but to be clear, t-shirts and signs don't bother me, but verbal disruptions and guns do.
@Cuda... You're still ok with me.
Bee
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:53 pm
by Stroodles
My opinion...I think it's WRONG for that pastor to do that. However, he has broken no laws.
It's sad that this gets turned into another 'look at dem evil (insert political party)'.
Out of curiosity, does the White House need lightning rods? I mean, it's not really tall and metal-y, but It's really important....just a thought...n
). And FWIW, he's not a whole lot nicer to Bush, when he mentions him. The guy perceives Obama as a thief and murderer, and hence prays for his death--with biblical precedent, as the Psalmist prayed for the death of those who practiced evil.
I'm not defending him. But I'm making a narrow point: the views have been consistently misrepresented to support a fantasy narrative about hatred and racism, and to imply a threat that isn't there. 
