DescentBB

in the Koran...

Book 041, Number 6981:

Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him.

Book 041, Number 6982:

Ubaidullah has reported this hadith with this chain of transmitters (and the Words are):\" There is a Jew behind me.\"

Book 041, Number 6983:

Abdullah b. 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You and the Jews would fight against one another until a stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.

Book 041, Number 6984:

Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Jews will fight against you and you will gain victory over them until the stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; kill him.

Book 041, Number 6985:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

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Is there anything like this in any other religious text?

Yeah, in the book of Mormon it talks about people with black skin (native Americans) being cursed or something like that.

No other \"religious book\" asks its followers to murder people though.

Burlyman wrote:Yeah, in the book of Mormon it talks about people with black skin (native Americans) being cursed or something like that.

It does that in the bible too.

ThunderBunny, could you help me out here? I can't find those verses in my Koran. It isn't ordered in "books", it is ordered in "parts" with only 114 "Surahs" or "chapters" I guess. I must have the abridged version or the only for white people version. I tried looking at Surah 41 but it only has 54 verses, not 6985 of them.

Maybe we could compare your Koran to mine and figure out what's wrong?

Xamindar wrote:

Burlyman wrote:Yeah, in the book of Mormon it talks about people with black skin (native Americans) being cursed or something like that.

It does that in the bible too.

No it doesn't.

I remember reading the part about the tree calling out to the Muslim to kill the Jew that was hiding behind it in a Saudi Arabian school textbook. I wanted to find out if the kids there were really taught this stuff in school and sure enough it was there.

The teaching of intolerance, dehumanization and violence toward non-Muslims is definitely prevalent in the middle east Muslim culture.

When we make excuses for it by siting events like the formation of Israel, which didn't happen until 1940 or thereabout, we are ignoring the reality that it was already there from around the 7th century at least!

The Bible may not say anything about brown people being cursed, but it does tell a story about one people being chosen above others…and that’s enough to have started plenty of trouble.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:

Xamindar wrote:

Burlyman wrote:Yeah, in the book of Mormon it talks about people with black skin (native Americans) being cursed or something like that.

It does that in the bible too.

No it doesn't.

try a simple google search or bother reading the Bible.

Besides, to my knowledge, even though the Book of Mormon has the "bad" people cursed and skin turned dark.....the people who followed God (his chosen group) never attacked the non-believers just because they didn't believe. In fact, there were times when the "dark" people were more righteous than the white ones and ended up teaching them the ways of God.

So I'm not sure what Burlyman's point was, but it didn't follow ThunderBunny's point about Muslims killing Jews. Just looks like a cheap stab at Mormons to me.

I'm pretty sure the whole thing with Muslims against Jews goes deeper than those quotes. The Jews believe they are descendants or Abraham and so entitled to the promises given to Abraham of that land and other things. But the Muslims believe they are also entitled to that claim as they are also descendants of Abraham. That's where both religions split and go different ways.

Too bad they both can't just come to an agreement and say they are both entitled to the land and can both live together and work together. But such is being human I guess. Have to have something/someone to hate.

Google or bother to read my Bible, huh?

Well here's the Google (I'm not absolutely certain of the source, but I know yours was way out).

And here's the Bible:

Genesis 9 wrote:20 And Noah began to be a farmer, and he planted a vineyard. 21 Then he drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent. 22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness. 24 So Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him. 25 Then he said: "Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brethren." 26 And he said: "Blessed be the LORD, The God of Shem, And may Canaan be his servant. 27 May God enlarge Japheth, And may he dwell in the tents of Shem; And may Canaan be his servant."

Your sources stem from arguments that appear to have been constructed to defend slavery. Very astute... The idea that Ham did something sexual with Noah is not supported by the Bible, and neither does the skin-color of Ham's descendants receive any support from that verse.

Anyone else want to step up to the plate with a careless display of total ignorance?

(Disclaimer: Thorne is not in a good mood)

Spidey wrote:The Bible may not say anything about brown people being cursed, but it does tell a story about one people being chosen above others…and that’s enough to have started plenty of trouble.

Yes but as Thorne pointed out in one example, it was due to a bad choice by someone and was a form of punishment but not without the option of repentance. .. it's just that most did not.

Huh?

“one people” not “one person” (Jews)

well yeah. Both applies. Even within the sons of Jacob. iirc a couple of the sons were assigned blessings that were anything BUT because they acted irrationally.

There are instances in the old Testament where the Hebrews were told to conquer and slaughter and there were times where God brought other armies against His own people to do the same. But I do understand that you meant as a nation.

ThunderBunny wrote:No other "religious book" asks its followers to murder people though.

You didn't specify. :P The Bible does say that a sorceress must not be allowed to live. But it also says later on in the book, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Yup.

But God never tells his people to kill everyone that doesn't believe in Him. He has Israel kill groups of people, yes, but for other reasons. and before anyone goes there, the crusades were never authorized by God to the best of my knowledge.

While your quotes in and of themselves are true, they draw a horrible comparison where context is concerned.

Christianity, Judaism and Islam all have militant splinter groups that advocate violence to advance their agenda (domination) and splinter groups that advocate pacifism above all else. I am no expert but I am sure the leaders of these splinter groups can give convincing interpretations of scripture to validate their convictions just as many motivated political activist can with the Constitution of the United States.

Of the major religions I have never heard of radical Buddhists trying to force their way of life on anyone anyone by any means violent or otherwise. However I could be mistaking and wont drawn the conclusion this has never happened.

Some people need to have a belief system to function, or believe they do. Any need can and will be exploited. So far here in the U.S.A. and to what extent exploitation through religion happens is up to the individual. Many religious groups here would rather that weren't the case. I heard of an anecdote, and I believe it is true, that G.W. Bush once said anyone that doesn't believe in God (The Christian God) was NOT an American in his opinion (and therefor did not count.) Of course he was addressing a religious group and campaigning for office at the time.

Normally I don't give a rat's ass what someone's religion is until I feel threatened by it. In politics especially. When religion becomes not an internalized part of your personal life but something that must be externalized as a part of your life it can become threatening to others. Especially if you have the potential to externalize it from a position of great Power. Then it is no longer up to the individual how much he or she is exploited by or through religion.

Our exploitation through politics and commercialism is burden enough, thank you.

Edit:
A link some might find useful whether they believe in God or not...
http://www.ehow.com/how_4877804_religio ... e-god.html

Nice article, thanks.

God never asked us to force other to believe in Him either.

btw, Buddists are a fraction group from Hinduism. ... not militant, but that's where it comes from.

Tankie2 wrote:I heard of an anecdote, and I believe it is true, that G.W. Bush once said anyone that doesn't believe in God (The Christian God) was NOT an American in his opinion (and therefor did not count.)

Wikipedia link. The quote was reported by Robert Sherman. Since he didn't record the conversation, some have questioned his veracity. I don't see any reason to doubt his report. It was George Bush senior though, not junior.

Christianity, Judaism and Islam all have militant splinter groups

Islam's \"militancy\" is part of islam as a whole. It is a practice that preaches holy war. Jihad.

There are \"splinter groups\" within islam that wish to renounce violence- but they are few and far between.

Thunberbunny, That's not true. If you took the time to actually get to know more about the Islamic people as a whole (which you won't, as you've shown over and over) ... you'd find your two statements there are very incorrect.

Keep on drinking your paranoia poisen. I'm sure you think it tastes just wonderful.

lol

Tech, you're the misinformed. Sorry. I read this just about 24/7. I doubt you do.

Whoa that explains a lot of things... 24/7 reading that much means you have an inheritance and don't have to work, it also requires a poop sack and pee jugs. How do read in the shower? Are you the American guy that got kicked off the Jazz Air flight?

I'm nicknaming you Preacher Jihad.

It still doesn't change the fact that at this very moment:

Five Muslim Soldiers Under Terror Investigation at Fort Jackson

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/five-musli ... t-jackson/

Jihad continues despite your willful blindness.

I don't know about you guys, but every muslim I've met was a peaceful, rational person and didn't have anything to do with terrorism, \"Jihad,\" holy war, or any of that stuff. It seems like there is a big difference between reading about Islam and actually meeting and talking to a muslim...

X2 Burlyman... but we are not reading the Innernet 24/7... we actually meet the people. Hell I've lived amongst Muslims many times. Many different sects too.

And again you generalize.

Just search and you'll see that I have met and been with several muslims. The students that my father had from Dubai. They invited us to convert to islam immediately.

Again, willful blindness.

Listen preacher if your posts didn't contain so much biased hate, people might care to read them.

You also sound like a broken record player with one bad experience. I too have met Muslims I do not like, but I do not hold an entire religion responsible for the bad actions of a few.

The hate vibe gives people ulcers and sour blood and I don't need no negative vibes baby.

In contrast TB, it all depends on where you grow up in the Islam world. I worked with an Islam woman for a year. She never once tried to convert me. In fact, she said that the people in Tiaran were nuts. over a 1/3 were radicals. She was from the north along the sea. One of the reasons she was here; to get away from that stuff. (she was from Iran)

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http://morsecode.scphillips.com/jtranslator.html

I know some too and they are as nice as you describe but that's because they don't follow the teachings of Muhammad who commanded his followers to fight... and many do.

Bee

Exactly. There are muslims as there are catholics. Not all practice the religion they were born into to the letter. It's the \"devout\" muslims you have to look out for.

The Iranian lady described was most likely Shi'a. Contrary to popular perception, Iran was a pretty progressive country socially until the 1979 islamic revolution. Many there still rebel against the tyrannical mullahs to this day.

My grandfather was born in Isfahan, Iran. He wouldn't recognize it if he were alive today.

And it goes on...

Pakistani Christian Beaten for Refusing to Convert to Islam

\"They threatened that it was the breaking point now, and that I must convert right now or face death,\" Masih said. \"They said killing an infidel is not a sin, instead it's righteousness in the sight of Allah almighty.\"

http://www.compassdirect.org/english/co ... tan/15560/

I wasn't generalizing, that's why I said \"I don't know about you guys,\" because I don't know who you've met... I was only pointing out my experience with peaceful muslims.

I don't think ThunderBunny is \"hate mongering\" or anything. He is just stating facts and conclusions about Islam (which seem to be valid, IMO) and expressing himself and opening a discussion. At least, that's how it seems to me...

I think Thunderbunny is \"fundamentally\" correct.