DescentBB

I get kindof tired of the whole \"Obama is a Socialist\" campaign from the GOP.

political compass pics
USA Election primaries 2004 (ie: Bush, Kerry, Nader)
USA Election primaries 2008 (ie: Obama, Mrs Clinton, McCain, Palin, RonPaul)

I want to use these internet pictures as an illustration for the point i wish to make.
Note how Obama is on the Right side. Actually, note how prettymuch EVERYONE of note is on the Right side.

He's no-where near Socialist.

He might be a Socialist compared to Bush, but Bush was hardly a normal balanced individual.

I would be happier if Obama were somewhere around Nader on that political compass chart. Obama is nowhere near as Socialist as i would like him to be.

A question i'd like to ask of the GOP voters here: Would you have preferred Bush to be even further to the Right and/or even more Authoritarian than he was?

You're trolling right?

I didn't vote for any of those losers.
yay me.
but on a more important note, i think the whole spending money we don't have idea is getting old and it shows by the people who are being elected these days..

People are throwing money over fist in an economy that isn't going to come back no matter what.

But hey, the good ol' american way is credit now? Say hello to your new best friend, good luck in those concentration camps monkeys.

Obama is a socialist, he’s just not a very effective one.

woodchip wrote:You're trolling right?

no

I agree with roid, Obama's not very socialist at all. He's more of a spineless Corporatist shill, along with all of Congress, in my book. If he had implemented more leftie Dem ideas, there'd be FAR more conservative screaming going on and the lefties would be smiling happy campers. Right now, the left, the right and the middle are VERY unhappy with his leadership. You can't please everyone.

Stalin was the socialist.

roid wrote:

woodchip wrote:You're trolling right?

no

No disrespect but you are a Aussie. Why would you want our president to be more socialist? Don't have enough of that in your country?

My country is more Socialist than yours, most of the 1st world is. That's why we're the first world.
But Australia is not what anyone would call \"Socialist\".
Well - besides you it would seem.

It could stand to be more Socialist.

I know that for you guys Socialism is a bad word, it's like witch hunting. Always on the lookout for Reds under the beds & all that.
I hear some of you even think it's the opposite of Democracy.

I mainly interested in avoiding Authoritarianism, avoiding Social restrictions. Typically those on the Right are also Authoritarian, so i vote to avoid them. Ron Paul would be an obvious exception (being quite far from Authoritarian, yet still far on the Right) and i think i would have preferred him to Bush if i had to choose.

It’s not the opposite of democracy…it’s the opposite of freedom.

Authoritarianism is the opposite of Freedom (Libertarianism).


As you can see, the parties on the politlcal Right are typically more Authoritarian than the ones on the Left.
See the links in original post, click around.

So if you want to vote for Freedom (ie: avoid Authoritarianism), you'd be best voting for Socialists and/or Libertarians.
As you can see, you'd vote for the Republican party if you wanted to vote against freedom, ie: if Authoritarianism is more your kettle of fish.
The middle-ground would be the Democrats - for if you kinda like freedom but also kinda don't. But since you guys don't have proper preference voting (ie: you are stuck in a 2 party voting system) one can understand why people would choose the Dems just to keep the Authoritarian Republican Party out.

Here's the Australian landscape.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/aus2007
The 2 major parties are the Labor Party and the Liberal&National Party coalition.

Our 2007 election was prettymuch a preclude to USA's, in that we effectively kicked out our version of your far-right Republicans and elected our version of your Center-right Democrats.
I voted for the Democrats and the Greens, who gave their preferences to Labor. So i effectively voted for Labor.

Don't worry about it. Roid's always been out of his gourd.

Well the proof is in the puddin…you can’t advocate all kinds of government control over peoples lives…then point to the other guys and cry authoritarian.

Some of us don't equate socialist politico's like Obama with communists from the 50's. some of us recognize Obama socialism as the very authoritarians you fear on the right. The only differences are a few particulars in the agenda, for example his Pay Czar just last week stated that no one should earn more than $100,000 per year! I don't know about you but that sounds pretty damn authoritarian to me!
Having the central government take control over private corporations is authoritarian, etc. etc.
So, no, he won't take away your right to have an abortion...but then again neither did the republicans...but he will certainly take away numerous rights and is in the process of doing so right now.

In fact, if you look at what rights the republican team has actually taken away, not the ones democrats fear monger but never took place but the ones they actually infringed upon with legislation, you'll find the current democrat administration is keeping them in place...wiretaps, Gitmo, etc. the sad part is voters like Bee think the dems are the good guys because in speeches they railed against these things yet once in power they perpetuate much of the same and yet Bee goes on quoting the dem campaign rhetoric as if the dems actually are different!

Spidey wrote:Well the proof is in the puddin…you can’t advocate all kinds of government control over peoples lives…then point to the other guys and cry authoritarian.

Exactly. Roid is absolutely correct about the dangerous authoritarianism on the right. But the left wants to control what I do just as much, they just want to control a different set of variables. Socialism, by its very nature, requires a large degree of government control.

The only REAL freedom comes when you have a small and strictly limited government, and a large dose of personal responsibility in your citizens. The government is NOT responsible for your actions, you are. It IS the job of the government to protect you from others, and others from you. But it is NOT the job of the government to protect you from yourself.

Neither the right nor the left want this. At all. It's a darn shame that Ron Paul backed down on his campaign before the end. <sigh>

roid wrote:

So if you want to vote for Freedom (ie: avoid Authoritarianism), you'd be best voting for Socialists and/or Libertarians.

Tell that to the people who actually work in Venezuela as Herr Hugo slowly transforms their country into a socialist state. The Russians so loved Socialism they want it back in all it's glory. The East Germans so loved socialism they risked getting shot in the back trying to escape it. Tell me again Roid why I would want to see our country go a "little" more socialist?

Interesting observation Kilarin.

Isn't government by its very nature authoritarian? No matter which way you look at it or run it, it is administering its policies through some sort of socially accepted authority. And there will subjects of that government that will not like it and view it as \"authoritarian.\"

It sure is true that the Republicans have a hard ass nut about obeying rules, but just how many rules should there be…that’s why the Dem’s get the prize in my book. They are freakin rule happy.

Like Kilarin says…

Only the smallest government needed to do the job, will give the greatest freedom. (paraphrase)

Spidey wrote:It sure is true that the Republicans have a hard ass nut about obeying rules, but just how many rules should there be…that’s why the Dem’s get the prize in my book. They are freakin rule happy.

except when they have to ram their bills through and make them Law when no one else wants them. They will do anything POSSIBLE to get around the rules. ie. health care.

woodchip wrote:

roid wrote:

So if you want to vote for Freedom (ie: avoid Authoritarianism), you'd be best voting for Socialists and/or Libertarians.

Tell that to the people who actually work in Venezuela as Herr Hugo slowly transforms their country into a socialist state. The Russians so loved Socialism they want it back in all it's glory. The East Germans so loved socialism they risked getting shot in the back trying to escape it. Tell me again Roid why I would want to see our country go a "little" more socialist?

AFAIK all your examples (Soviet Russia, Soviet Germany, Modern Chevez) are of Extremely Authoritarian Socialism, Where are your Libertarian Socialist examples? (Where's Nelson Mandela?)

Is that really an accurate representation of the Left?
http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2
Note how there are Authoritarian Leftists, but they are comparitively rare when contrasted to the vast amount of Authoritarian Right.

I note that on that political compass page they do indeed have more Authoritarian Leftists listed than Libertarian Leftists. But how many Libertarian Rightists do they have listed? Even less (only 1)

But i understand this is mere conjecture, as obviously the website's has not made a complete list of every politician or political party in existance and/or in-power.
But i do feel that it's an accurate representation - the Right is generally more Authoritarian than the Left, which is partially why i made this thread.

As far as i can tell Chavez would be an example of the Authoritarian Left. And he seems to be getting even more Authoritarian, atm he seems to be trying to ban video games. wtf. He seems to be spiraling into madness.
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/11/05/ve ... z-adm.html
I'd prefer a Libertarian Right Winger (Ron Paul) than an Authoritarian Left Winger (Chavez).
If i had to choose between a Right Winger and a Left Winger - if both had Equal Authoritarianism, i think i'd be slightly more inclined towards the Leftist.
(as far as i can tell, Chavez seems more Authoritarian than Bush)

As far as i can tell, the Left is generally more Libertarian, and the Right is generally more Authoritarian.
So if you valued personal liberty, you would be more inclined to vote for the leftist candidates as they are typically more Libertarian (Less Authoritarian).

Are you sure those world political views fall in line with American politics…because I am a libertarian and I’m also about as far right as it gets.

Spidey wrote:Are you sure those world political views fall in line with American politics…because I am a libertarian and I’m also about as far right as it gets.

somewhere around Mike Gravel?
http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008

i suppose you could take the test and check.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

I’ve taken at least three of those tests over the years, when they were posted here or elsewhere, and my “dot” always comes out on the right and towards libertarian.

But I don’t place much credence in those tests…I simply make up my own mind based on my own beliefs.

Here’s the one I just got, lol…goes to show how accurate these things are.




The first one that calles me a “lefty” dies a slow and painful death.

Here's my result (just did test now)


It seems to think i'm more left than you, well duh.
But would you agree with it's assessment that i'm more Libertarian than you?

Although the questions are very vague and quite arbitrary-

I'm almost as \"centrist\" as you can get on this graph.



Now those of you that thought I'm a racist nazi of some kind will either have a different opinion of me now or think this \"test\" is pretty bogus.

I'm thinking you'll go with the latter.

Seems TB and I are in the same sphere

Woody, remember the one we took…I was Gandhi…and you were…

Lol

I thought I was more on the left... I guess not!
edit: It shouldn't surprise me since I'm a big believer in capitalism. And I hate homeless people with working ten fingers and two legs.
edit: here's a song I could have written:

I think it's laughable how the person that \"answered\" for Sarah Palin in the graph Ferno put up as an example poked her right up next to where \"hitler\" would have \"scored\" on the test.



And- if the person \"answering\" for Obama were honest in their assessment of where Obama truly stands, Obama would certainly be FAR left. There is no way Obama is \"right\" of me by any means though he truly is far more authoritarian than the graph suggests.

ThunderBunny wrote:And- if the person were honest in their assessment of where Obama truly stands, he would certainly be FAR left. There is no way is "right" of me by any means though he truly is far more authoritarian than the graph suggests.

x2!

This is where I think Obama truly stands philosophically if not his pragmatic \"public\" political stand.



He sees himself as important and revolutionary, like a South American neosocialist - yet as humanistically and philosophically inclined as Ghandi.

It's too bad this graph doesn't measure ego.

Hrm, seems about right for me...

I would have thought I was on the Right ... but I guess not.

\"I took the test. It said I will be contacted by the authorities shortly.\"

There is a lot of name calling when it comes to politics and usually who ever is pointing the finger whatever the \"noun\" they are using as an expletive out of context because they've learned it out of context by what ever entertainer some media company hired as a political pundit to push their agenda. Usually that is something as simple as \"boost ratings by projecting controversy\". Here is an great starting point to get familiar with the political spectrum and what these words mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

As for political compass these change so often and PoliticalCompass.org happens to be at the top of the Google search and to many that in it's self is suspect and at any rate should not be taken as determinative. It is certainly clever, quick and illustrative and quite useful for it's visual impact. \"I am Here.\" I like that. But it's not the only tool in the shed.

There are a couple of others that delve into other issues and attitudes with questions authored by different people from different organizations. I suggest that by taking these and comparing the results you can better get to know yourself and possibly people n general a lot better and blithely ignore the political noise and hear the motivations beneath it.

http://politics.beasts.org/scripts/survey
http://www.electoralcompass.com

There should be more of these political compasses online IMO, there certainly used to be... I suspect it's because the internet is now a resource more dominated by corporations and special interests and is no longer the \"Public playground\" it was in late twentieth century.

Maybe some clever code monkey in this community could fix devise one? A political test based on how we feel about gaming, comic books, computers and the internet. I think would be quite fun!

On the contrary, i think if we analysed the individual questions and the answers you all gave to them - you would see that it actually mirrors your viewpoints more accurately than you would like. And the true fault is in your preconceptions of the result you THOUGHT you SHOULD have got (but didn't).
The fact that so many of you think that Obama is a Socialist, or that the left is inherently authoritarian - should clue you in that there's something you don't quite understand here.

Analysis is my thing and i'd be interested in testing my theory. But i doubt anyone else is interested in exposing their intimates to me. I'm scary.
(remember years ago when i put everyone through the Myers Briggs / Jungian personality test?)

roid wrote: Analysis is my thing and i'd be interested in testing my theory. But i doubt anyone else is interested in exposing their intimates to me. I'm scary.

I don't know about that. I've exposed my intimates to some pretty scary guys. All I need is a little improper encouragement.

tmi

roid wrote:...
The fact that so many of you think that Obama is a Socialist, or that the left is inherently authoritarian - should clue you in that there's something you don't quite understand here...

I think you should re-examine your perceptions and consider there is a difference between the typical left leaning, benevolent, socialist type and someone like Obama, Pelosi, etc! The big difference is the rationale that authoritarian methods are required and acceptable as long as it is their goals those methods are used to pursue. They are the wolf in sheep's clothing. They are turning liberalism into a party-fascisism movement using all sorts of deplorable tactics that are light years away from what was once the average liberal.