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So this is what it has come to...

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:05 pm
by VonVulcan
http://patriotpost.us/alexander/2010/03 ... stitution/

This is Essay mentions both parties so it's not just attacking Dems. It talks about the process. Something Obama, out of his own mouth, said he didn't care about.


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Alexander's Essay – March 18, 2010
Pulling the Plug on our Constitution

\"If the federal government should overpass the just bounds of its authority and make a tyrannical use of its powers, the people ... must appeal to the standard they have formed, and take such measures to redress the injury done to the Constitution as the exigency may suggest and prudence justify.\" --Federalist No. 33

Democrat Leadership

Our Constitution is on life support, and House Democrats are about to pull the plug.

Leaders of the Democrat Party (\"Progressives\" as they call themselves, Leftists as we call them) have been unable to garner popular or even Democrat Party support for their plan to socialize our health care system. Fortunately, Republicans are united in their opposition to this one issue.

Barack Hussein Obama, titular head of the Demos, proclaimed, \"I want some courage. I want us to do the right thing.\"

But House Speaker Nancy Pelosi concludes, \"Nobody wants to vote for the Senate bill.\"

She is proposing to overtly circumvent our Constitution by way of the \"Slaughter Solution.\" Rep. Louise Slaughter, chairman of the House Rules Committee, proposes to pass legislation using the \"self-executing rule,\" which will allow the House to accept the already-passed Senate health care bill by presumption alone, thus negating a formal up-or-down vote by House members.

Pelosi confessed, \"I like it because people don't have to vote on the Senate bill.\"

Unfortunately, there is precedent in invoking the \"self-executing rule\" -- by Republicans, no less -- concerning \"mundane\" legislation agreed to by House leaders of both parties. Unconstitutional as these precedents are, there is nothing \"mundane\" about ObamaCare.

\"Slaughter\" and \"self-executing\" may describe both the process and the electoral future of many Democrats in the House.

Most of the Leftist-controlled political and popular debate about the Democrat proposal to turn over to the central government control of more than 17 percent of the U.S. economy, is focused on one question or another -- what will it cost or save, who will pay and who won't, who will be covered and for what, will there be enough physicians to support this in 10 years, will federal funds be used for abortion, can our economy afford another trillion dollar boondoggle, does it really address the entitlement cost tsunami we're facing, ad infinitum.

These might be interesting topics for debate, but none are germane.

The only relevant debate must begin with First Principles, our Constitution and Rule of Law.

Does our Constitution allow the Executive and Legislative branches to collaborate to confer authority upon the federal government over, in this case, so-called \"health care reform\"?

Those who laid the Foundation of our Constitution were crystal clear about its enumeration of both the authority and limits upon the central government.

James Madison, our Constitution's primary author, wrote, \"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined [and] will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation and foreign commerce.\"

Madison continued, \"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.\"

To that point, Thomas Jefferson asserted: \"[G]iving [Congress] a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which may be good for the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole [Constitution] to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and as sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please. Certainly, no such universal power was meant to be given them. [The Constitution] was intended to lace them up straightly within the enumerated powers and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect.\"

Clearly, our Constitution, does not authorize Congress to nationalize health care, anymore than it authorizes Congress to do most of what it does today.

That notwithstanding, Obama and his Leftist cadres in the House and Senate are moving forward with their endeavor to inflict socialized medicine upon the United States.

They have again, one and all, abandoned their oaths to \"support and defend\" our Constitution.

Democrat \"leaders\" have all been questioned about constitutional authority, and have uniformly asserted that the question is irrelevant.

Typical of their non-responses was this indignant question from Speaker Pelosi: \"Are you serious? Are you serious?\"

Such utter contempt for our Constitution explains why Democrats refuse to support any measure to cite constitutional authority for legislation. For example, the Enumerated Powers Act (HR 1359) would require that \"Each Act of Congress shall contain a concise and definite statement of the constitutional authority relied upon for the enactment of each portion of that Act,\" but for years, insurmountable obstacles have prevented passage of HR 1359 -- and you know who they are.
Circumventing Rule of Law (see the larger version).

As for the Slaughter Solution, Article 1 Section 7 of the U.S. Constitution stipulates, \"Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, and that in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively.\"

Typical of Republican protests about this effort to evade the Constitution's prescription for passage of legislation, Rep. Thaddeus McCotter (R-MI) called the ruse \"the acme of arrogance\" and the \"shredding the U.S. Constitution.\"

Unfortunately, more than a few Republicans have dabbled in such unconstitutional chicanery. Thus, I am reminded of the admonition regarding hypocrisy in Matthew 7:4-5. In contemporary terms, Republicans must first demonstrably abide by First Principles before calling on Democrats to do the same.

The only silver lining to this cloud: If Democrats pass ObamaCare, every medical complaint by a Democrat constituent will be hung around their necks.

Fellow Patriots, stand firm for Essential Liberty for we still hold these Truths.

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

Mark Alexander
Publisher, PatriotPost.US



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\"The Patriot Post (www.patriotpost.us/subscribe/ )\"

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:01 pm
by Bet51987
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Re:

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:14 pm
by Insurrectionist
Bet51987 wrote:Sunday, hopefully, healthcare reform will pass. I don't care how it's done or what's torn down to achieve it but I hope it happens.

Bee
This is why America will die.

Let's just get rid of that pesky constitution right Bee.

Re:

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:20 pm
by Krom
Bet51987 wrote:Not attacking the Dems? Sorry Vulcan but this is just another Republican whining site.

Sunday, hopefully, healthcare reform will pass. I don't care how it's done or what's torn down to achieve it but I hope it happens. The Republicans, when they're not messing with the school system trying to implement "Flintstoneism", will be out in force doing everything in their power to protect the rights of big business, big insurance and the rich. Second only is their fervent desire to make Obama's presidency fail.

My fingers are crossed for Sunday.

Bee
And this national health care plan isn't going to play right into the laps of big business, big insurance and the rich? HAHAHAHA You're funny.

Re:

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:25 pm
by Will Robinson
Bet51987 wrote:...

Sunday, hopefully, healthcare reform will pass....

Bee
What?!? are they actually voting on some reform legislation too?

Re:

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:42 pm
by VonVulcan
Bet51987 wrote:Not attacking the Dems? Sorry Vulcan but this is just another Republican whining site.
Bee
Do you need remedial reading lessons?

Go back and read my comment AND the piece since it's obvious you just had a knee jerk reaction and try again.

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:55 pm
by Spidey
If the Republicans can defeat this so called reform plan, I may actually sign up to the party again.

Maybe… :roll:

Re:

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:05 pm
by Bet51987
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Re:

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:26 pm
by VonVulcan
Insurrectionist wrote:
Bet51987 wrote:Sunday, hopefully, healthcare reform will pass. I don't care how it's done or what's torn down to achieve it but I hope it happens.

Bee
This is why America will die.

Let's just get rid of that pesky constitution right Bee.
So sad, but your right. Bee just confirmed it. This post is not Pro right or left but that's all she can see. It talks about rule of law and the constitution.
Of course you all know I'm pretty conservative but that has nothing to do with this topic. The rules America was founded on, the constitution, is better then any system in the history of this planet. To bad men and women are corrupting it beyond all recognition. On both sides of the isle. That is the point of this topic Bee. And the point of this essay.

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:53 pm
by SilverFJ
Willing Serf for the State wrote:Sunday, hopefully, healthcare reform will pass. I don't care how it's done or what's torn down to achieve it but I hope it happens.

Bee

Image

Re:

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:09 am
by CUDA
Bet51987 wrote:Not attacking the Dems? Sorry Vulcan but this is just another Republican whining site.

Sunday, hopefully, healthcare reform will pass. I don't care how it's done or what's torn down to achieve it but I hope it happens. The Republicans, when they're not messing with the school system trying to implement "Flintstoneism", will be out in force doing everything in their power to protect the rights of big business, big insurance and the rich. Second only is their fervent desire to make Obama's presidency fail.

My fingers are crossed for Sunday.

Bee
where does one even begin to start with the ignorance and stupidity of this statement????

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:46 am
by SilverFJ
Bet wrote: Second only is their fervent desire to make Obama's presidency fail.
Take a look at this cool invention, Bett:
Image
Have you noticed your fervent desire to make Obama's presidency succeed? Regardless of the cost?


Here's some stuff you should read:

para·noia
"par-ah-'noi-ah"
noun
2 : a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and dis-trustfulness of others


par·ti·san
"pɑrtəzən"
noun
1. an adherent or supporter of a person, group, party, or cause, esp. a person who shows a biased, emotional allegiance.


bi·as
"baɪəs"
noun
2. a particular tendency or inclination, esp. one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice.
3. Statistics. a systematic as opposed to a random distortion of a statistic as a result of sampling procedure.

...and for the record, I left the Republican party a while ago. Reps, Dems, it's all the same trash politics and it all needs to come down. I know you don't like me very much, Bett, but please, try and step back from blind loyalty for a second and tell me what you see. I did. I used to put Bush Jr. on the same pedestal you put Obama on. Now it makes me sick to think I could've ever gone against my own nation's freedoms by supporting him.

Your turn.

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:46 am
by AlphaDoG
I'm not too worried about this crap (senate) bill passing the house (with changes), as it then has to go back to the senate. At least that's how it's supposed to work. If any changes are made in the house before it's passed, which seems to be the case, it HAS to go BACK to the senate to be voted on AGAIN, before it can land on the President's desk for signage.

If this DOESN'T happen, if the bill leaves the house (with changes) and goes to the President, it would be the time for EVERY American to worry about their future status as citizens of this formerly GREAT country.

Even Bee should afraid, unless, she's already connected with the future politburo that will run this country into the ground on the backs of EVERY class, EXCEPT the political class.

!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:53 am
by woodchip
Well the vote can't take place as Obama hisowndamself said on a Fox News interview that the bill would be posted for all to read 72 hours prior to any vote. Then perhaps I can't count. Then again perhaps the bill is posted?

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:42 am
by Insurrectionist

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:47 am
by woodchip
Thats a older version. New one has another 700 pages to it.

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:24 pm
by Will Robinson
Obama promised to put all these discussions to shape the reform on CSPAN because 'doing this behind closed doors, hidden from america was wrong' so I don't think they have even started yet.....oh....wait.... never mind, that was before he was elected.

Obama is so bad that he makes Sean Hannity's pre-election rantings sound absolutely reasonably, wise and remarkably prophetic.

Re:

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:35 pm
by Bet51987
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:33 pm
by Spidey
You want real insurance reform? Make everyone pay for it out of their own pockets…

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:35 pm
by CUDA
Will wrote:Obama is so bad that he makes Sean Hannity's pre-election rantings sound absolutely reasonably, wise and remarkably prophetic.



WELL it would seem that the ULTRA liberal Huffington post agrees with you
Huffington post wrote:Obama's Broken Promise: Federal Agencies Not More Transparent Under Obama Administration
plus it seems like the AG's of several states are lining up to sue the Fed if this passes, Id, S.C and Fla are all preparing law suits

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:49 pm
by Spidey
Obama administration transparent, I don’t know what you are all complaining about…I can see right thru it.

Re:

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:52 pm
by CUDA
Bet51987 wrote:
SilverFJ wrote:I know you don't like me very much, Bett...
I dislike a few here but you're not one of them.
and I'm VERY proud to say that I am one of "them" :D

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:53 pm
by Kilarin
Spidey wrote:You want real insurance reform? Make everyone pay for it out of their own pockets…
It would take more than just that. We would need to eliminate much of the legal protection that has been built around the insurance industry. You'd have to allow competition across state lines. You'd have to remove insurance's protection from the anti-trust laws. You'd need lawsuit reform, and dozens of other changes. Our health industry is very sick. Unfortunately, socializing the system won't make it well. It's like bleeding a dying man, its more likely to kill him than help him.

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:07 pm
by Spidey
It’s a start, a start that would catalyze a lot of other things…

You and others want to fix the problem by diddling with this and that, while the root problems remain.

Re:

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:08 pm
by AlphaDoG
Spidey wrote:You want real insurance reform? Make everyone pay for it out of their own pockets…
You want REAL health care reform? Make everyone pay for it out of their own pockets…

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:18 pm
by Spidey
Heh thanks, that’s closer to the truth, but I have given up on the idea that anybody will ever figure out that insurance is one of the root problems.

We are stuck with it.

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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:12 pm
by Bet51987
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:24 pm
by Spidey
Number one, I’m not a Republican, or did you mean republican?

You see those numbers in your post…those are the problem. I have no insurance, so “your” solution is simple…force me to buy it.

Maybe if you were in my shoes, you might have a little bit different perspective. You said you have the best insurance money can buy…is it your money? You need to feel very lucky.

Re:

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:32 pm
by CUDA
Bet51987 wrote: The republican way is always best.

Bettina
Glad to see you finally admit it. maybe there's hope for you yet :wink:

Re:

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:48 pm
by AlphaDoG
Spidey wrote:Heh thanks, that’s closer to the truth, but I have given up on the idea that anybody will ever figure out that insurance is one of the root problems.

We are stuck with it.
Part of the problem with insurance is the fact that people lose sight of the actual money that is spent by their insurance company to cover expenses that would clearly be cheaper if people were forced to SHOP for the best prices.

People do not shop now, which is what feeds free enterprise, because they don't need to. They simply go to the closest source, for their consumption needs. Before you go off on me about consumption, keep in mind that health care is JUST another form of it.

Re:

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:55 pm
by Will Robinson
Bet51987 wrote:....
What is your answer for the parents who lost their jobs, then gave their entire life savings, their house and car to big insurance and then moved in with one of their friends so they would qualify for state aid to cover the $4000 a month cancer treatment for their son.

How can a friend of mine pay for his Remicade treatments for Crohns disease which costs $3000 a month if not for insurance.

You need a reality check.

Bettina
Well while your assigning reality checks do one on yourself.
Obama promised a lot of things to get elected. He's delivered on almost NONE of it.
He has in fact done the exact OPPOSITE on a lot of those promises.

So....have you checked your assumptions that what Obama is going to DO to see if it changes the burden faced by those people? Yea sure he talks in generalities about health care costs etc. but have you found anything in his plans that will actually deliver relief to those people or just switch control of the process to the federal government? And when you do find the hint of a good thing do the math on how it will be sustained. Right now, even if you believe the grossly fraudulent numbers they offer the plan is 40% under stated with regards to cost. The plan calls for 10 years of taxes to cover 6 years of expense! You only get to start late once!! The second and subsequent decades will have no extra 40% to fund the budget!!
If you try to correct the gross lies they put in the budget it is more like 200% under stated!! Just how long will this supposedly better service/care be available to these people in need?!?

I think, Bee, you are not nearly as informed as you think you are, and you are not engaging in any critical thinking of your position.
Example:
Bet making excuses wrote:Telling you what I see in a republican forum will simply get me shot even if it makes sense.
You are merely adopting the democrat party rhetoric because you have chosen a side and now you just want to belligerently 'represent'...turn off brain overdrive mouth...
I urge you to adopt nothing, pick neither side and instead examine the details as best you can and judge anyone on the merits of their deeds not their rhetoric. If you did that you would be very worried about all those things you care so much about because the champion you have chosen has not delivered at all!

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:19 pm
by woodchip
So tell me Bee, if the health plan is so monumentally important, why will it take 4 years or more before it becomes operational? Meanwhile what do you think will happen to all the money that will be paid in during those 4 years? Wanna bet it becomes \"ObamaMoney\"? You know....like the stuff those Detroiters were getting last fall.

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:28 pm
by AlphaDoG







Bee? Is that you? In that last video there, is that you?

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:54 am
by Bet51987
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Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:57 pm
by Spidey
I already responded to your post.

You have no right to lecture me, I happen to be un-insured with pre existing conditions. Don’t expect me to give a damn about people who are getting care, when I do without every day.

The answer was in my response, in my world, cancer treatment wouldn’t cost 4000 dollars a month. If you look at the statement you quoted…it didn’t say anything about doing without insurance, it was about “paying” for it.

The post I made was in direct response to your bragging about having the “best insurance money can buy” which really rubs me the wrong way. Pay for your own insurance…then brag.

Anyway the concept behind making people pay for their own insurance stems from that stupid idea in Washington, about forcing me to buy a overpriced product, while almost everyone in the country has it subsidized. And would force the price down, because insurance companies would have to price their product where “people” could afford it, instead of business, and government.

And if you had taken 2 seconds to think about it, instead of your knee jerk hate Republicans reaction, you might have understood.

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:37 pm
by Bet51987
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Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:50 pm
by *SilverFJ
How the hell rich are you? And have you ever stepped down from your mountaintop, where you mix Mint Juleps with Zeus?
Bet wrote:So Spidey, why would someone like me give a dang about people like you.
Holy freakin ★■◆●.

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:03 pm
by Kilarin
*SilverFJ wrote:Holy freakin *****.
You're missing her point. Bettina obviously cares about the poor, and she thinks all rich people SHOULD care about the poor, but she feels that they need government intervention to encourage it or most of them will not.
Bettina wrote:The world without subsidies, where health insurance companies have put aside their quest for greed and actually become concerned about public wellness.
Yes, we do need to kill the subsidies. In a working system, Insurance companies WOULD be concerned about public wellness, because keeping people well saves them money.

The problems with the current system are many, but we are working at the wrong end. I heard an interview with a man who ran a small insurance company once. He had some very interesting points. He said that he didn't want more healthcare regulation, he wanted the government to start enforcing standard rules about keeping contracts honestly. His companies biggest problem was that the big companies collected insurance from people when they were well, then dumped them once they were sick. The ceo of the small company said that he couldn't compete with the big companies if they only had well people. He didn't want NEW regulations to fix this, he wanted the big companies to actually be prosecuted for breach of contract. Since it is clearly a breach of contract to dump people off of insurance once they get sick. Existing laws cover that, but they are not being enforced.

Along the same lines, insurance companies are given monopoly status. They are exempt from anti trust laws, and cross state competition is forbidden by law. why?

THESE are the problems I'd like to see fixed. They are problems caused by the government manipulating the system where it should not, and not enforcing rules that are already on the books. Going to a public health care system will not fix these, it just puts the same stupid government into the position to cause more trouble and mess up more things.
bettina wrote:don't forget that the GOPSCOTUS has declared that big corporations and big insurance are now "people" too.
I'm with you on this one. A big part of our problem in health care is big business being able to manipulate the government. The supreme courts decision on this point is quite baffling in its stupidity. And worthy of Stephen King on the horror scale.

Which is one of the reasons a public health care system is even MORE terrifying now than it was before. We are giving more power to the government at the same time that we've made them more vulnerable to manipulation. BAD idea.

Re:

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:04 pm
by Bet51987
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Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:19 pm
by Spidey
Well Bettina, That stupid “health care reform” of yours isn’t going to help me one bit…so screw it.

If you think it’s going to help me please explain how?