DescentBB

Question for our Descent BB audience!

*booted to the right thread*

Sorry TG. I made a boo-boo and didn't see which place I was posting the original Space article. ;P

I was going to say, you completely threw me for a loop for a second. \"What the hell...didn't I post in this?\"

Depends on your definition of \"Descent-like\".

There are a couple of commercial 6DoF games out there (Shattered Horizon and Miner Wars). However, I don't quite put those in the \"Descent-like\" category, as the gameplay is considerably different.

There have been a number of failed/abandoned projects, but there are also a couple of ongoing efforts (e.g. the guys at ODF) to make a community-driven Descent-type game.

All in all, I give it a 50% shot that something significantly resembling Descent comes along in the next few years (note: I'm feeling optimistic today; usually I'd peg the odds much lower).

Someone has not been paying attention to the Miner Wars thread. There is a company making one, but it is not Descent 4, so I'd go inbetween 50% and 100%. I say 75% eventough I voted 50%.

Foil, I did hear in Miner Wars that you did have some missions that takes place in indestructable mines. You'd be opening doors and things just like in Descent. I think it's going to resembe Descent very closely.

If I had the time and money, it would be happening. I plan to get both someday. However, I bet it's going to happen before then, by better people.

While I picked 10%, I think the odds are a little higher than that. At least if you count indie games. Including that it's probably nearing the 50% mark. IMHO of course.

I honestly think there is a 100% chance a 6dof game will be made, I just don't think it will be Descent 4.

i just wonder why people talk and don't do. anybody heard of cube, sauerbraten? this guy even programmed from scratch. the free tools available today make it possible to create a game in a dedicated team even for people of average talent.

floppyfreak wrote:i just wonder why people talk and don't do. anybody heard of cube, sauerbraten? this guy even programmed from scratch. the free tools available today make it possible to create a game in a dedicated team even for people of average talent.

I do stuff for a living.

Isaac wrote:

floppyfreak wrote:i just wonder why people talk and don't do. anybody heard of cube, sauerbraten? this guy even programmed from scratch. the free tools available today make it possible to create a game in a dedicated team even for people of average talent.

I do stuff for a living.

Plus the "let make a free game together" community has been abused, and it's not easy to get going.

Thenior wrote:Plus the "let make a free game together" community has been abused, and it's not easy to get going.

second point agreed, first: what do you mean (i mean, perhaps i missed a point, currently i don't feel abused)

Thenior wrote:Plus the "let make a free game together" community has been abused, and it's not easy to get going.

second point agreed, first: what do you mean (i mean, perhaps i missed a point, currently i don't feel abused)

floppyfreak wrote:i just wonder why people talk and don't do. anybody heard of cube, sauerbraten? this guy even programmed from scratch. the free tools available today make it possible to create a game in a dedicated team even for people of average talent.

Closest to this might be me having a little fun with Microsoft's XNA w/ C#. Shouldn't be too hard as I've managed two axes of rotation before, and I could just as easily throw in a third. The only reason I remember it as being a headache in any way possible is that I was trying to make rotation that was NOT relative to the ship, but to the camera. Since the case with descent is relative to the ship, it could be done.

But I'm currently pre-occupied with making a top-down multiplayer shooter for my programming class so...

/me points floppyfreak to the Descent ODF

http://www.odf-online.org/homepage/index.php

Ultimately anyone worth a damn will be looking for a return on their efforts. Without that, and without the drive that it provides, there just isn't much of a chance anything will be produced, or if there is that it will be worth anything. That's not a negative thing, that's the way life is. I need to be compensated for my effort. I need to get something out of it that is worthwhile for me.

I don't expect another Descent, whether it's still called that or not, unless it's undertaken as a serious commercial enterprise. The good news is that no one has made anything that fills Descent's place properly, and I think it not only has a fair fan-base, but has the potential to again take market share from the ground-pounders. Unless any of you can expect to do that, and even to vie for game-of-the-year, I think you should learn a hard lesson now and realize that it is only a fond dream.

You can't have success just for wanting it, you can't force greatness. What you can do is try to cultivate the right environment (I'm convinced knowing what that environment is is 70% of the battle, in business), and throw some good hard work and ingenuity at it. I doubt 1 in 100 even know what a new Descent should look like in order to succeed Descent 3 today... Everyone seems to have Descent clones with great graphics in mind.

Sergeant Thorne wrote: I doubt 1 in 100 even know what a new Descent should look like in order to succeed Descent 3 today... Everyone seems to have Descent clones with great graphics in mind.

I agree. Part of what is going to have to happen is not just taking in mind the former Descent players (which is a rather small market) but also, modern gamers. Which means that although it will be 6dof, it won't feel exactly like Descent.

Personally, I don't think you could pull off a good Descent 4. At least not without completely rethinking everything - in which case, you might as well create a new IP.

floppyfreak wrote:

Thenior wrote:Plus the "let make a free game together" community has been abused, and it's not easy to get going.

second point agreed, first: what do you mean (i mean, perhaps i missed a point, currently i don't feel abused)

What I mean by abused is that you can't just round up a bunch of people online and start a project anymore. You have to spend some serious time preparing designs and showing proof you can lead a team.

When the whole Open game design thing started to spread on the internet, you could find a ton of people who wanted to work on projects who were good. But now, all you can really get easily are n00bs.

I think that sounds a little ridiculous. You could get good people easily?

Thenior wrote:You have to spend some serious time preparing designs and showing proof you can lead a team.

Sounds like that ought to be pretty standard ground-work to me. Anything less should be considered a pipe dream, unless you know the people personally. If it's really true that that's not how it used to be, then maybe the answer is that it just became too popular to try to make your own game, so a whole influx of inexperienced people are going off half-cocked, with their eyes disproportionately on the glorious end-result.

[quote="Sergeant Thorne"
Sounds like that ought to be pretty standard ground-work to me. [/quote]



I've been a part of more open source projects than I can count on my hands. I think only two still are in progress. I agree that creating a ground plan should be standard - that is why most projects fail, because no one knows what to do, and everyone likes their spin on the idea.

Sergeant Thorne wrote: If it's really true that that's not how it used to be, then maybe the answer is that it just became too popular to try to make your own game, so a whole influx of inexperienced people are going off half-cocked, with their eyes disproportionately on the glorious end-result.

I completely agree with your answer. I suppose, though, I couldn't really expect any less. The real, thought out, reasonable projects get the best developers, and the ones that suck and don't have a good leader don't.

Every project starts with small steps. It seems to me, that people look more for excueses then for progresses. Currently the situation is far away from the stage to lead anything. Currently we see total lack of interest imho.
Why should it be more difficult today to find people? The knowledge how to make these things have spread. Everybody begins as a noob.

I have a pretty high opinion of my abilities, but I am also blessed with a certain sense of reality. It seems to me that people are too optimistic sometimes. For instance, you may think that there could be some romantic success story where a newbie makes the next great Descent. No one who is totally new can pull off something as great as this. There has to be experience--something to draw on. I know what it is to push beyond your abilities, and it's just too difficult beyond a certain point. There has to be a certain progression. That is the nature of things. I believe, whether any of us know it or not there has been a progression behind every Descent, and every other successful game. I would love to work on the next Descent, but I recognize that I simply do not have the background--the experience necessary to carry my weight in birthing such a project. Beyond abiity, there is also the matter of situation--life, and working out how to put the necessary time toward a project of this scope, and knowing beforehand that it will be worth it, whatever that means to you, but most basically that you will not starve at the conclusion (or before).

The problem I find is, no matter how versatile you are, you can only work so fast. One man cannot make a game of such a size alone (Diedel's work on D2X-XL is probably at the 99th percentile of what a one-man project can reach; the amount of time he's had to sink into it to do that is insane). You need quite a few people to work with you if you don't want to spend 20 years on it.

I agree with most aspects of the last replies. But why are we focused on something we aspect it will never happen? Can't we define a project that could possibly be done and start to contribute within our limits?! It could be a smart little project that shows what can be done and opens a perspective for further efforts.
What we have done here the last years is a sophisticated sport and some have really become masters of an art. But can we stay on that level? That would be death before evolution got its opportunity.

I have some plans/ideas, just don't know when I'll get the chance to do anything with them. Once I'm all done with my moving thing I guess I'd better get back to my half-dozen projects that have been left languishing...

floppyfreak wrote:I agree with most aspects of the last replies. But why are we focused on something we aspect it will never happen? Can't we define a project that could possibly be done and start to contribute within our limits?! It could be a smart little project that shows what can be done and opens a perspective for further efforts.
What we have done here the last years is a sophisticated sport and some have really become masters of an art. But can we stay on that level? That would be death before evolution got its opportunity.

Not to be argumentive, because I think that's a really good thought, but I would be curious as to just what anyone might think could be considered to contribute.

IMO dabbling in any new technology (sotware) that could significantly make the next Descent would be a contribution. As would dabbling in creative story-writing, because that is no doubt going to be a great challenge coming out of Descent3. And frankly I think sticking with the Descent brand would give the project a boost from the start ("hey, I remember coming across that name way back... *curiosity*", as well as "I love Descent, yay another one!!").

I'm sorry, what follows just sort of spilled over, and doesn't relate very neatly to what I was just talking about, except number "4)" at the end.

I've had a dream for some time now (ever since PD stagnated), to create Descent Universe(.com). An all-inclusive site that does everything that would be useful to hook people up to Descent information and each other, encourage increased activity and interest, enhance Descent-play, and improve D3's exposure to the rest of the net (good screenshots, videos, ...), and at the same time attempts to prevent the same kind of stagnation that I saw with PlanetDescent (PD was excellent, back in the day). Not trying to step on any toes, and not without appreciation for efforts that did contribute to PD, but PD was in a pretty bad state, compared to the glory days. It needed a lot of improvements, in my opinion, and the interest just wasn't there. I think that ultimately Descent content could be presented so much better, and additions that were cut off with the revamp (ladder) could really provide some fun activity (not to mention things that have never been done, to my knowledge, such as a 2on2 feature in a ladder).

I'm in retail, and basically I would want to handle DescentUniverse like a business. Not a business for making money, but at least a website that is well organized, well merchandised, so to speak, and that has the potential to pay for itself (hosting), to reward staff contribution (pride in what they've done, aided by contribution tracking and scoring; and perhaps even monetary, with funds above and beyond hosting costs), and possibly even provide for prizes for some sort of quarterly contests/events (tournaments, level design, modding, who knows...).

My reasons for entertaining such a bold project are four-fold.
1) It's a multi-faceted dream of mine:
-> Better forum interface
-> Better level, mod, and software merchandising; as a retail salesman I know that so many things fall through the cracks or get overlooked for lack of placement or display... have you ever sat around and wondered what 1on1 level to play? What if you could see them all just by scrolling up and down (at least 3 screenshots of each)? What if you could do that either by specifying search parameters, or simply by clicking a link in the 1on1 ladder area?
-> A ladder that provides for all kinds of play that people enjoy--not just 1on1, but 2on2, maybe 3on3 (not to get tedious), Clan support, and maybe even the possibility of temporary alliances which could effect scoring or status (or even just match history, if we don't use scoring) in intelligent, reasonable, and fun ways.
-> SOD is such a great idea, and especially for 1on1s, but it's never been done well. Shiva's servers left something to be desired, as good as his interface was, and Roncli went 70%-80% of the way and then lost interest. Now imagine a good web-based interface that server-ops can host by contributed player count (how many players they allow DU SOD to host on their connection)... now tie that into the ladder/tournament area...

2) It's working in an area that I could expand on as a sole means of income for myself (not Descent Universe--web design in general).

3) In my opinion the site would be fully justified for everyone involved in the event that a new Descent-like game becomes as popular as any of the last.

4) Ties into the third, because #3 has never been enough in the past. I really believe that Descent, as a genre, could rock the gaming world significantly again, and in thinking about it I am convinced that a good showing--a success in Descent Universe could have a really positive effect on perceptions of the genre, particularly in regard to game companies.

I can't edit, but I wanted to add this to the end...

\"... particularly in the eyes of game companies or designers (could even be some of the original Descent guys). Perception is not logic, and perceptions negative or positive can stick. I say encourage a positive perception of Descent and let that be on our side where perception does come into play.\"

Bump.

According to miner wars.com, they are building what sound like descent-clone levels to put in the game See quote below:

\"Another thing that we are pushing for is having levels within asteroids. Those levels will be something resembling a dungeon that you encounter in an RPG. These dungeons will be populated with robots and NPCs and some PVP matches will be held in them. Descent anyone? \"

http://www.minerwars.com/News.aspx#Newsondevelopment05

...I would like to change my vote from \"Probably\" to \"definitely\".