DescentBB

Some leftie radio talk show host talking about the Arizona Illegals Law got me thinking about this. If you're a U.S. citizen, do you have in your possession an original copy of your birth certificate? A lot of people called in to say that they did not, due to all sorts of circumstances, hospital flooded, burned or just no longer existing, house flooded or burned, birth by midwife (no certificate is created in that instance quite often), lost in some move, adoption, etc., etc.

I ran into that problem because somewhere along the line in my childhood, my parents must have lost it, so all I have now in my possession is an old photostat of the thing. It's NOT an original copy and the hospital my mother used is long gone and the old records were discarded or lost. I've never tried to get one from the state, if they even HAVE one.

My question is, how many Americans can produce an original copy when required and why did Arizona use the birth certificate as required proof of citizenship when it seems so haphazard the way it's given out and stored? I'll bet a lot of you couldn't produce one right away yourselves.

I might be able to produce my original certificate, but certainly not quickly. It was kept with family in another state until recently, and it's still not easily accessible.

I don't believe my wife's original certificate even exists anymore. She only has state copies.

I love laws that weaken red states' electoral votes.
(casm of sahr)After this, they should make abortion a state decision. (/casm of sahr)

I have a state certified state copy of mine on hand as should you TC. Being an Oregon citizen, you need a copy of your B/C to re-up your driver's licence. AND YOU will need a copy of your marrage licence as well (unless they recinded that, I can't remember)

Issac, unless you're being sarcastic,(which I have no way of telling) that is EXACTLY what roe vs Wade did; made it a State decision.

My Mother still has mine. 50 years later. So she says

I know right where mine is, and I had to use it to get my state ID.

In the filing cabinet behind me. You know since 911 you need it to get a picture ID

Documents Required to Obtain A Missouri Driver or Nondriver License or Instruction Permit

Applicants must present one or more documents in each of the following categories. Additional documents may be required.

NAME, DATE OF BIRTH, PLACE OF BIRTH (U.S. Citizen)
U.S. Birth Certificate - certified with an embossed, stamped or raised seal issued by a state or local government. (Hospital-issued birth certificates are not acceptable.)
U.S. Passport (valid or expired)
Certificate of Citizenship, Naturalization, or Birth Abroad
U.S. Military Identification Card or Discharge Papers - Military document must be accompanied by a copy of U.S. Birth Certificate issued by a state or local government.

U.S. Citizens who have previously verified place of birth after July 1, 2005, and the department's records indicate such verification, are exempt from this requirement.

NAME, DATE OF BIRTH, PLACE OF BIRTH (Non-U.S. Citizen)
Non-U.S. citizens should examine the complete listing of acceptable documents for proof of name, date of birth, and place of birth.

SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER (ALL Applicants)

Provide your Social Security Number (verbally, or by presenting your Social Security card); or
If a Social Security Number has not been assigned, the applicant must present a letter from the Social Security Administration (SSA) regarding the status of the applicant's Social Security Number.
MISSOURI RESIDENTIAL ADDRESS (ALL Applicants)

Utility bill
Pay Check
Government Check
Mortgage Document
Voter Registration Card
Property Tax Receipt
Housing Rental Contract
Bank Statement

TC, I think the problem you're having might be traced to your opening statement:

Some leftie radio talk show host talking about the Arizona Illegals Law got me thinking about this.

You seem to have accepted the premise that a birth certificate must be posessed or they can be arrested. I don't believe that is true. From a non-lefty source I'm finding the law interpreted along these lines:

The ID requested is hardly draconian: a driver's license, a non-operating identification license, valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification, or \"any valid United States federal, state, or local government issued identification.\" Rather than requiring multiple IDs as some fear, the law clearly says that \"any\" of the IDs is sufficient. And the notion of having to carry IDs is not something unique to Arizona. President Obama and many Democrats, such as Senator Charles Schumer, support a national ID card, so it hard to argue that Arizona's requirement will impose an undue burden.

Even if a person does not present the required ID, that doesn't necessarily mean the person faces problems. The new Arizona law requires that \"a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person.\" Today, this is not hard to accomplish quickly as computer records have photographs and other identifying details for people who have state-issued IDs. The only exception to making \"a reasonable attempt\" is if making that investigation would \"hinder or obstruct\" a criminal investigation. That isn't going to effect many cases.

So maybe the law you are thinking about doesn't even exist....

Heretic wrote:In the filing cabinet behind me. You know since 911 you need it to get a picture ID

Documents Required to Obtain A Missouri Driver or Nondriver License or Instruction Permit

Applicants must present one or more documents in each of the following categories. Additional documents may be required.

NAME, DATE OF BIRTH, PLACE OF BIRTH (U.S. Citizen)
U.S. Birth Certificate - certified with an embossed, stamped or raised seal issued by a state or local government. (Hospital-issued birth certificates are not acceptable.)
U.S. Passport (valid or expired)
Certificate of Citizenship, Naturalization, or Birth Abroad
U.S. Military Identification Card or Discharge Papers - Military document must be accompanied by a copy of U.S. Birth Certificate issued by a state or local government.

U.S. Citizens who have previously verified place of birth after July 1, 2005, and the department's records indicate such verification, are exempt from this requirement.

NAME, DATE OF BIRTH, PLACE OF BIRTH (Non-U.S. Citizen)
Non-U.S. citizens should examine the complete listing of acceptable documents for proof of name, date of birth, and place of birth.

SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER (ALL Applicants)

Provide your Social Security Number (verbally, or by presenting your Social Security card); or
If a Social Security Number has not been assigned, the applicant must present a letter from the Social Security Administration (SSA) regarding the status of the applicant's Social Security Number.
MISSOURI RESIDENTIAL ADDRESS (ALL Applicants)

Utility bill
Pay Check
Government Check
Mortgage Document
Voter Registration Card
Property Tax Receipt
Housing Rental Contract
Bank Statement

Yep you need ALL that! Welcome to America!

I'd Like to add that Oregon implemented vadildated birth certificates for renewing or first time drivers licences to reduce the number of illegals apply for them. They are strict with it too. (I think a vesa or passport will work at well.) They made it tough here for the same reason that Arizona is putting new laws in place. Because the FEDS WON'T DO THEIR JOB!

big governement .. wonderful.

Why is it that every time the Feds decide they need to do something they call it \"reform\"?? We already have laws in place to deal with the situation we're in. They just don't want to use them. \"It will caost too much money\" or.. orr. oor.. Funny, if I failed pay my taxes, and they came hunting me down for them (eventually) do you think it would work if I jumped up and said \"Hey! What we need is Tax reform!\" you think that would work??
Then why are we letting them get away with it? We don't need new laws.

I grew up on the border of Mexico in El Paso Texas from 1964 to 1974 and went back to live there from 1978 to 1984. During any of those two spans and beyond both pre and post it was totally normal to be driving down the road and discover the Border Patrol had set up a random roadblock where they asked everyone specifically what country they were citizens of and asked anyone resembling a latino to show ID or answer numerous questions designed to expose an illegal.

At what time between then and the time the democrats calculated they own the Latino vote did something happen to make that decades long practice Nazi like?
rhetorical question

This whole outrage is fueled by democrats who realize they need more than the usual registered latino vote, they now need the illegals to vote for them or they lose the next two election cycles.

Heretic wrote:In the filing cabinet behind me.

yeah, same here. birth certificate and certificate of live birth.

Will Robinson wrote:You seem to have accepted the premise that a birth certificate must be posessed or they can be arrested. I don't believe that is true. From a non-lefty source I'm finding the law interpreted along these lines:

The ID requested is hardly draconian: a driver's license, a non-operating identification license, valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification, or "any valid United States federal, state, or local government issued identification." Rather than requiring multiple IDs as some fear, the law clearly says that "any" of the IDs is sufficient. And the notion of having to carry IDs is not something unique to Arizona. President Obama and many Democrats, such as Senator Charles Schumer, support a national ID card, so it hard to argue that Arizona's requirement will impose an undue burden.

Even if a person does not present the required ID, that doesn't necessarily mean the person faces problems. The new Arizona law requires that "a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person." Today, this is not hard to accomplish quickly as computer records have photographs and other identifying details for people who have state-issued IDs. The only exception to making "a reasonable attempt" is if making that investigation would "hinder or obstruct" a criminal investigation. That isn't going to effect many cases.

So maybe the law you are thinking about doesn't even exist....

I didn't say the law required a birth certificate. The topic came up in a discussion and it got people thinking about U.S. citizenship and what types of identification are required to prove it when needed and if you could produce it at a moments notice. A driver's license is not proof of citizenship either, as far as I know. It's not a national ID card, although people seem to treat it that way. But I can see some Arizona cop not trusting a license handed to him by someone they suspect is an illegal. If that happens, then the person has to produce a more valid document. And if they can't find one that has better proof because they lost it due of an old fire, flood, move or other happenstance, they're screwed, even if they're legal citizens.

However, Duper's right, Oregon changed the validation process for getting a driver's license to help prevent illegals from obtaining one. BUT, this may create another problem for our state because now that illegals can't get a driver's license, they'll probably just drive around here anyway without knowledge of the local rules of the road that one learns by reading the driver's manual and taking the test. They'll just become accidents waiting to happen that ALSO probably don't have auto insurance. The law of unintended consequences.

The only thing I can think of right now that requires a birth certificate for identification is when getting a passport. Don't U.S. citizens need that now to get into and out of Canada?

tunnelcat wrote:Don't U.S. citizens need that now to get into and out of Canada?

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_t ... _2223.html

U.S.PASSPORT AND WHTI COMPLIANT DOCUMENTS:

* U.S. Passport: U.S. citizens may present a valid U.S. passport when traveling via air, land or sea.
* The Passport Card: The passport card is only valid for land and sea travel between the U.S. and Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean region, and Bermuda.
* WHTI-Compliant Travel Documents for U.S. citizen travel via land and sea, as of January 31, 2008:

o Trusted Traveler Cards (NEXUS, SENTRI, or FAST)
o State Issued Enhanced Driver’s License (when available)
o Enhanced Tribal Cards (when available)
o U.S. Military Identification with Military Travel Orders
o U.S. Merchant Mariner Document when traveling in conjunction with official maritime business
o Native American Tribal Photo Identification Card
o Form I-872 American Indian Card

As I understand it the law does not allow police to stop ANYONE for only the reason of determining their status.
The law encourages police to inquire as to status when they have made a stop, or are questioning for another reason, AND have a reasonable suspicion.
I would also point out that there has been a law (Federal) since about 1940 that require all non-residents to carry their papers.
Also let me say that I am all for poeple trying to do better for themselves. Still Illegal immigration, is just that - illegal. Refferring to people as \"undocumented\" doesn't change the fact that it is illegal.