DescentBB

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:01 am**

Hi,

Descent 2 isn't dead - there are still a few projects out there to breathe new life into it. A very notable one imho is Deep World. It looks like a D1/D2 clone and uses a segment engine like they do, but has a brand new graphics engine making use of the latest tech today's gfx cards offer.

Maybe you haven't heard about it yet, as it's a German project, so if you're interested, take a look there.

I am btw. in no way affiliated with that project or it's owner - just thought it's interesting news.

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:14 am**

Thank you for the info. And the yellow text!

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:07 am**

Yeah, but theres nothing to play yet!

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:32 am**

and i thought this would be about heather brooke...

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:00 am**

JMEaT wrote:Thank you for the info. And the yellow text!

You can have orange, if you prefer ...

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:02 am**

Tyranny wrote:Yeah, but theres nothing to play yet!

Yeah, but something to look forward to!

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:54 am**

About time. Looks sweet! Cant wait for it.

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:56 pm**

That guy always posts in yellow text, actually I think it is easier to read.

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:57 pm**

Who can read the site that wants to translate it?

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:59 pm**

Krom wrote:That guy always posts in yellow text, actually I think it is easier to read.

Bingo!

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:19 pm**

dl the movies. I find it very bad graphics and I'm surprised they can actually get away with copying Descent so much without the rights to it.

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:13 pm**

If they don't sell it, there won't be a problem I think.

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:14 pm**

CDN_Merlin wrote:dl the movies. I find it very bad graphics and I'm surprised they can actually get away with copying Descent so much without the rights to it.

http://www.syberflex.de/deepworld/pictures/tush90.jpg
http://www.syberflex.de/deepworld/pictures/tush98.jpg

Doesn't look THAT bad Merlin...especially when you consider some of the earlier screenshots.... (btw, this was posted over a year ago)

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:25 pm**

Wow, when you said "Descent clone" I thought "game based on similar premises"... I didn't realize it was an exact copy.

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:32 pm**

MD, I saw the higer res pics, but the "whats the word I'm looking for" The cockpit isn't as nice as in D3 or D2.

Just looks really badly designed. Don't tell me to code it myself, I know how difficult it is. I'm just stating my view.

Posted: **Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:49 pm**

What ever happened to Aqua-something? I though Mobius was touting that as the *New Descent* quite a while ago.

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 2:49 am**

CDN_Merlin wrote:dl the movies. I find it very bad graphics and I'm surprised they can actually get away with copying Descent so much without the rights to it.

Descent source is freely available. Think your statement over.

The movies are no screen captures, but look like filmed off the monitor. I bet this game looks better than Descent, as it is using newer gfx functions. Besides that the looks depend on textures as well, and these can be changed quite a bit easier than a gfx engine.

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 2:51 am**

CDN_Merlin wrote:MD, I saw the higer res pics, but the "whats the word I'm looking for" The cockpit isn't as nice as in D3 or D2.

Just looks really badly designed. Don't tell me to code it myself, I know how difficult it is. I'm just stating my view.

You don't really know the project at all. All you have seen are some pretty aged screen shots and a few pretty bad game play movies.

I really wonder what urges you to be so deliberately negative about it, and with so little grounds to be so. Some personal interest here?

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 3:04 am**

Lothar wrote:Wow, when you said "Descent clone" I thought "game based on similar premises"... I didn't realize it was an exact copy.

A clone is an exact copy (or very similar to the original at least), I'd say. Who cares anyway? It's a D1/D2 look alike based on current gfx tech. Who doesn't like it: Just leave it. I hope that at least that guy will manage to finish his project, and not "get lost in translation" somewhere in the middle of it, like all the other oh-so-promising D2 upgrade projects that have been.

I like D2 more than D3. All the D3 multiplayer levels I have seen (And I have looked at a few) look pretty barren to me. Most of them are as "boxy" as D2 levels (and there are a few non-"boxy" D2 levels around as nice counter-arguments to that kind of argument against D2). I also don't feel the gameplay of D3 being superior to D2's.

Maybe that would change if I'd ever build a D3 level (but then I might probably have to rewrite the D3 level editor, which will presumably be way more work than DLE-XP, and I am definitely running out of time

).

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 3:14 pm**

Diedel wrote:I like D2 more than D3. All the D3 multiplayer levels I have seen (And I have looked at a few) look pretty barren to me. Most of them are as "boxy" as D2 levels (and there are a few non-"boxy" D2 levels around as nice counter-arguments to that kind of argument against D2). I also don't feel the gameplay of D3 being superior to D2's.

Maybe that would change if I'd ever build a D3 level (but then I might probably have to rewrite the D3 level editor, which will presumably be way more work than DLE-XP, and I am definitely running out of time ).

there are many great levels out there already, and yes: built with D3Edit as it is. plus, it's being currently worked on to improve it even more.
if you handle it right, it's a very powerful tool. anyway, you can use something else to create the level with and convert it into the d3-format, as there are several tools.

the reason you may haven't seen the good looking ones may be that in the 1st place, when most levels were made, computers haven't had enough power to provide eye candy with enough performance for a good gaming experience (that means no fps drops in battles). so the levels had to look quite sparse.
another reason is that pretty levels just don't get played, thus don't get hosted either.
don't hesitate and browse the level base on planet descent, which hosts about 95% of all levels out there. you will find several very pretty ones.

at this point i'd like to point to my own level which i consider to have a little eye candy. it was intended to have quite a bit more, but i got bored building it, so i finished and released it. get it here.

you see, the potential is there, but isn't being accepted in most cases.

mods, forgive me for continuing/implementing a subtopic. i'm going in shame to stand in the corner

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 3:34 pm**

I have downloaded quite a few D3 levels that had received very good reviews and also were pretty new, and looked at them.

If I compare them to good UT levels, they kind of suck.

I don't want to offend the D3 level designers, but these are the days of GF FX and ATI 9X00 gfx cards and 2 GHz CPUs, so they might want to add a good few more details and eye candy to their D3 levels.

If I'll ever find the extra time, I might try building a D3 level myself, but that's a different science than building D1/D2 levels, as ship characteristics have changed quite a bit from these games to D3, right?

I got your mission and will let you know what I think about it.

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 3:54 pm**

Ok, here's what I think. All in all, it's pretty well done, with quite some variety in the various parts of the level, and the idea with the broken-in cave (or so) is not bad.

Still, I'd like to see more details. The walls are textured pretty "monolithic", i.e. you got your standard texture per room. It would look better if there were e.g. some cables running across some wall or so, or some rocky rubble laying around where the red rock is visible, etc.

I didn't like at all the texturing in the room with the big red tube thingie. It looks boring, and on walls are tilted inward look misaligned. I would use some 'electronic' texture there (showing control lights, circuitry, cables, etc.).

Re the big tubes in the hallways: They're all just gray, like concrete. How about adding some rust, and having some steam escape here and there?

Some more ambient sounds wouldn't be bad either.

I'd also add some more structures in the bigger rooms.

Finally, everything in the level is very large. Maybe that is suitable for the high(er) speed of the D3 ships, but for me this looks totally unproportioned. A pyro has about airplane size. In your level (and most others) they look like flies at best. That's something I generally dislike about D3: The sense of scale is totally off track.

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 4:21 pm**

thanks.

as stated before, it got boring ..., i know it's not perfect. more features were planned but i left them out. anyway, the level wasn't meant to be perfect but to seriously stand above the box.
btw, have you touched the water surface?

and the hard part with cables running across the wall or rust etc. is that there are most likely no preset textures, which means even more work, and afaik the number of custom textures is limited.
plus you can't just "brush" another layer to the wall, you'd to literally cut it into it (as i did with the logos, just in case you've noticed them).

i'd take it to email not to interfer this thread any further, but hey it's yours

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 5:39 pm**

bash wrote:What ever happened to Aqua-something? I though Mobius was touting that as the *New Descent* quite a while ago.

That's Aquanox. We pleaded with them to put 6DF controls in the sequel, but they didn't. They seemed to think that there are only two possible control styles: FPS and flight sim.

Good luck to Deep World.

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 6:02 pm**

Floyd,

you cannot expect to produce something truly outstanding if you are not willing to chew through the boring parts of a creative/productive process too.

I know that creating good custom textures is an art of its own. You could probably take some from other games you legally own though.

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 6:03 pm**

De Rigueur wrote:
bash wrote:What ever happened to Aqua-something? I though Mobius was touting that as the *New Descent* quite a while ago.
That's Aquanox. We pleaded with them to put 6DF controls in the sequel, but they didn't. They seemed to think that there are only two possible control styles: FPS and flight sim.

Good luck to Deep World.

Or maybe N-Space

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 6:07 pm**

Lothar wrote:Wow, when you said "Descent clone" I thought "game based on similar premises"... I didn't realize it was an exact copy.

Notice the Pyro in the middle of the screen down at the bottom.

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 7:29 pm**

woodchip wrote:
De Rigueur wrote:
bash wrote:What ever happened to Aqua-something? I though Mobius was touting that as the *New Descent* quite a while ago.
That's Aquanox. We pleaded with them to put 6DF controls in the sequel, but they didn't. They seemed to think that there are only two possible control styles: FPS and flight sim.

Good luck to Deep World.

Or maybe N-Space

I thought it was N-Trap or some such that he was so keen on. Or maybe it was designing space stations.

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 7:38 pm**

Just because the Descent source is out does not give anyone the right to make a game like Descent. Having the source does not give you 100% of the game.

From what I've seen, this game doesn't interest me much. If you don't like that well to bad.

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2004 8:53 pm**

CDN_Merlin wrote:Just because the Descent source is out does not give anyone the right to make a game like Descent. Having the source does not give you 100% of the game.

What? It's not like there's a patent on "a game like Descent" or anything. I mean, seriously, look at all the cookie-cutter FPS games. The source being out has nothing to do with this I'm sure.

Posted: **Sun May 02, 2004 1:22 am**

No offense merlin, but I need to make you a "Silly Canadian" picture for these moments

hehe

Posted: **Sun May 02, 2004 1:24 am**

CDN_Merlin wrote:Just because the Descent source is out does not give anyone the right to make a game like Descent. Having the source does not give you 100% of the game.

Do you really believe that? LMAO! That's pretty ridiculous.

CDN_Merlin wrote:From what I've seen, this game doesn't interest me much. If you don't like that well to bad.

I have np with you not liking it (though you cannot really judge it yet, imho). I don't like the way you vent your feelings about it here. But then I guess I can ignore you on such occasions in the future.

Posted: **Sun May 02, 2004 2:13 am**

merlin is actually right -- having the source does *NOT* give you 100% of the game. Having the source, plus the compiler, plus all of the resources (including sounds, models, levels, and textures) plus anything else I missed would give you the whole game.

Having the source also doesn't make it legal to actually write your own clone of the game, or to distribute versions partially compiled from that source. It is, rather unfortunately, not the most straightforward legal question. From what I understand, even though D1 source is out, it's *still* illegal to distribute the commercial version of D1 (it's legal to distribute things like the D1x executable -- but you can't play D1 if all you had was d1x.exe; you need levels and config files from the full game.) I would think similar issues might come in to play here. You'd have to read the license agreement that comes with the game, and the one that comes with the source, to be sure.

Now, don't take this as a knock on the Deep World project (you seem to be reacting harshly to anything even remotely resembling criticism... but you shouldn't be.) It looks nice, and I really hope it turns into a worthwhile game. But some caution should be exercised -- there are definitely legal issues that need worked out. This is especially true in this case, since it looks like they intend to really reproduce the Descent concept on a new engine, rather than simply creating a Descent-like game (such as Forsaken.)

Like Tetrad said, there's not a patent out on "Descent-like games". But Interplay and Parallax do still own the rights to Descent, and making something that's a clear copy of Descent puts that group on pretty shaky legal ground. If they made a 3D mine-based shooter game with generally similar gameplay, nobody could complain -- but if they make a 3D mine-based shooter where you fly a pyro-GX with lasers, vulcan, spreadfire, plasma, and fusion they're clearly in the realm of copyright infringement, which is shaky on both legal and ethical grounds. Remember that even Outrage and Volition aren't allowed to just make D4 or any other new Descent game -- they can't do it without Parallax and Interplay agreeing to allow them to. For someone else to make a new Descent game (not just a similar type of game, but a true Descent game) without permission... that would be lame, and disrespectful to Parallax. (I don't mind if you disrespect Interplay, however.)

I hope the project succeeds... but I think, to do so, at least some consideration has to be given to this issue. It's not a question of "who doesn't like it: just leave it." I like it -- or at least, I like what I see so far, and I hope it succeeds. I'd love to see the project finish and a new, enhanced Descent come out. But in order for it to succeed, these questions need asked and answered.

Posted: **Sun May 02, 2004 3:22 am**

Lothar wrote:merlin is actually right -- having the source does *NOT* give you 100% of the game. Having the source, plus the compiler, plus all of the resources (including sounds, models, levels, and textures) plus anything else I missed would give you the whole game.

Having the source also doesn't make it legal to actually write your own clone of the game, or to distribute versions partially compiled from that source. It is, rather unfortunately, not the most straightforward legal question. From what I understand, even though D1 source is out, it's *still* illegal to distribute the commercial version of D1 (it's legal to distribute things like the D1x executable -- but you can't play D1 if all you had was d1x.exe; you need levels and config files from the full game.) I would think similar issues might come in to play here. You'd have to read the license agreement that comes with the game, and the one that comes with the source, to be sure.

No, he actually isn't. You don't understand the context. The guy making Deep World is creating his game from scratch
, so he is free to create his D1/2 clone. There is nothing else to say about this.

Lothar wrote:Now, don't take this as a knock on the Deep World project (you seem to be reacting harshly to anything even remotely resembling criticism... but you shouldn't be.)

Imo this is a remark about as mindless and offensive as can be, being based on my reaction on one single post here. I could say "immmature". I simply felt merlin being deliberately negative about that project, putting it down pretty much and with mostly pointless arguments, and that's what I disliked. I think the Deep World guy is putting a lot of effort in his game, and I don't like seeing somebody like that being put down by people in a bad mood or spirit.

Lothar wrote:It looks nice, and I really hope it turns into a worthwhile game. But some caution should be exercised -- there are definitely legal issues that need worked out. This is especially true in this case, since it looks like they intend to really reproduce the Descent concept on a new engine, rather than simply creating a Descent-like game (such as Forsaken.)

Like Tetrad said, there's not a patent out on "Descent-like games". But Interplay and Parallax do still own the rights to Descent, and making something that's a clear copy of Descent puts that group on pretty shaky legal ground. If they made a 3D mine-based shooter game with generally similar gameplay, nobody could complain -- but if they make a 3D mine-based shooter where you fly a pyro-GX with lasers, vulcan, spreadfire, plasma, and fusion they're clearly in the realm of copyright infringement, which is shaky on both legal and ethical grounds. Remember that even Outrage and Volition aren't allowed to just make D4 or any other new Descent game -- they can't do it without Parallax and Interplay agreeing to allow them to. For someone else to make a new Descent game (not just a similar type of game, but a true Descent game) without permission... that would be lame, and disrespectful to Parallax. (I don't mind if you disrespect Interplay, however.)

I hope the project succeeds... but I think, to do so, at least some consideration has to be given to this issue. It's not a question of "who doesn't like it: just leave it." I like it -- or at least, I like what I see so far, and I hope it succeeds. I'd love to see the project finish and a new, enhanced Descent come out. But in order for it to succeed, these questions need asked and answered.

Most of what that guy does is his own works: Gfx engine, complete game code, textures. He is currently using a few resources reminiscent of Descent - but I doubt there is much grounds to take legal action against him for Interplay based on that - so much less, if he doesn't take money for his project once it is done.

Finally I want to clearly state that everybody can think of that game (or anything else) what he/she wants to think. Saying what you think is a different story though, and if I don't like the tone I will probably say that.

Posted: **Sun May 02, 2004 3:25 am**

Will this thing come complete with the 150fps bug?

TEEHEHHHEHEHHHHEHEHEHEEHEHEHEHEHE

Posted: **Sun May 02, 2004 3:27 am**

What is the 150 fps bug please?

Posted: **Sun May 02, 2004 5:17 am**

Dam I want yeller text....

Anyways looks to be a great game! I can't wait to play this'n.

Posted: **Sun May 02, 2004 6:33 am**

Diedel, If you don't like what I have to say, then don't read my posts. I'm allowed to say WTF I want to anyone about anything. I'm not breaking the law or breaking some code of conduct.

If this dude makes his game to similar to Descent, he canb get his (_O_) sued. End of Story.

Posted: **Sun May 02, 2004 9:53 am**

Are you karx11erx from the forum over there?

It might be a good game though. It also proves someone with a little dedication can acutally make something on his own, instead of the jackasses we've seen here who assembled a "team" and made a lot of fuss about making a game. Apparantly this guy is from Germany, and we don't hear him every week rubbing his work in our faces, yet we are most likely the people he makes the game for.

I say we respect his initiative and effort.

About the possible legal issues, since he writes his own code he can only get trouble, like Lothar said, if he uses Descent names like Dravis, Pyro or Fusion cannon. But then again, did someone register those names? AFAIK, only the name "Descent" is registered. So he's essentially in the clear, he might even publish his work and ask money for it.

Posted: **Sun May 02, 2004 11:16 am**

CDN_Merlin wrote:If this dude makes his game to similar to Descent, he canb get his (_O_) sued. End of Story.

No. He. Can't. If he copies names or art resources or other copyrighted items, yes.

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