Empathize with homosexuals or no degree

[Heretic]

http://www.nbcaugusta.com/news/local/99145694.html

http://chronicle.com/article/Augusta-St ... um=twitter

Seems that a University can make you change your religious and personal views on homosexuality or kick you out and not give you your degree. Does this seem wrong? Discuss.

[CUDA]

Seems like a violation of the first Amendment to me.

[Isaac]

I bash the Texas education system so much I forgot what the other side of the spectrum holds...

[Bet51987]

.

[Will Robinson]

I haven't read all the material but it sounds like the course material is built on the foundation that the students have and want to develop empathy etc. for, among other people, gays. So how could she pass if she won't develop those 'skills'?

Like someone who's religion teaches 1+1=4 and then they can't pass the math class because they won't be able to solve mathematical equations.

[woodchip]

Hmmm, well...silly me. I thought counselors were there to help you with the mundane tasks like help in setting up your classes and steering you towards your final degree. Little did I know they are veritable Dr Jung's and get to play with your mind along the way.

[Heretic]

...and that homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle, would not interfere with her ability to provide competent counseling to gay men and lesbians.

That alone makes her unqualified as a counselor and I would not give her a diploma based on that alone.

Bettina

So you wouldn't not give her the diploma because it would not interfere with her ability to help gay or lesbians?

[CUDA]

\"[Augusta State University] faculty have promised to expel Miss Keeton from the graduate Counselor Education Program not because of poor academic showing or demonstrated deficiencies in clinical performance, but simply because she has communicated both inside and outside the classroom that she holds to Christian ethical convictions on matters of human sexuality and gender identity,\" the 43-page lawsuit reads.

Expel her on what grounds????

preventing her from graduating is one issue. Expeling her because of her religious beliefs is pure discrimination

The university has told Jennifer Keeton that if she doesn't change her beliefs, she can't stay in the program

whoops this seems just a little illegal.

[CUDA]

Section A-4, b states that counselors should avoid imposing their \"values attitudes and beliefs\" on others

I'm thinking the school is screwed by their own curriculum with those words. its says avoid. it doesnt say cannot.

[woodchip]

So the question begs to be asked, \" Just because she has beliefs au contrair to the counselor program, has she communicated she will hold those beliefs against any non hetro?\" I have to wonder if Jennifer was a Muslim extremist, would the big U be trying to kick her out? If not, maybe it is time for the Christians to start being a bit more aggressive.

[flip]

While I'm against homosexual lifestyles,I can see even more damage being done by a counselor who counsels strictly by their belief systems alone. To be a counselor, you must be able to be totally objective, and part of that objectiveness is not to force your own beliefs or criteria upon others. If you can't counsel without an ounce of judgment, which is commanded also of Christians, then I agree your not capable of being a counselor and are still in need of counsel of yourself. There's so many ways to be persuasive and her lack wisdom here proves to me that she is no where near qualified to advise others.

[snoopy]

1. It sounds like it's a stretch to say that they're forcing her to change her beliefs. They want her to study gays and lesbians, and report on her studies.

2. It also sounds like they're imposing extra graduation requirements specifically upon her, specifically because of her beliefs, which I'd call religous descrimination.

3. It sounds like she plans to be less vocal about her beliefs in the counselling room then she has been on campus. Of course, that's probably a ruse.

4. There are such a thing as private and christian counselling practices, where the counsellors have more latitude for counselling along the lines of a given belief system than a state-funded one would.

5. It sounds like it was her obnoxousness that brought this on.

6. I had a job, once, where my boss tried to publically single me out because of certain circumstances (I was prioritizing my internship over her campus-job). I walked out on her and never spoke to her again. I really don't like it when people pull the public humiliation card to try to manipulate others. I'm assuming that the extra assignments were public knowledge, but I think it's probably a good one to make.

[Heretic]

I always thought that the education system was to teach you how to think for yourself and not what to think. Seems they are trying the opposite and forcing the world views of thinking on her.

[null0010]

Hmmm, well...silly me. I thought counselors were there to help you with the mundane tasks like help in setting up your classes and steering you towards your final degree. Little did I know they are veritable Dr Jung's and get to play with your mind along the way.

This is only part of a school counselor's job. There's a huge thread on Fark discussing this. A large part of any counselor's job, and any job in the "helping" professions (doctor, psychologist, therapist, counselor, etc) is putting aside your personal beliefs to help your patients. This woman has publicly stated she is not willing to do that. It's like the case of a taxi driver who refuses to transport a man who is carrying alcohol he's purchased at the store, or a pharmacist refusing to distribute birth control medication.

She literally will not be able to perform her job with this attitude.

...and that homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle, would not interfere with her ability to provide competent counseling to gay men and lesbians.

That alone makes her unqualified as a counselor and I would not give her a diploma based on that alone.

QFT

[woodchip]

This is only part of a school counselor's job. There's a huge thread on Fark discussing this. A large part of any counselor's job, and any job in the "helping" professions (doctor, psychologist, therapist, counselor, etc) is putting aside your personal beliefs to help your patients. This woman has publicly stated she is not willing to do that.

She literally will not be able to perform her job with this attitude.

Curious, the only thing I read in the articles was:

"Her attorney says in the future if she is working as a counselor and there was a conflict of interest that child could be transferred to another counselor."

School Counselors are not psychiatrist, they are not there to treat you for mental disorders. If you are thinking that this is what school counselors are supposed to do then I suggest you reevaluate your understanding of them.

[Heretic]

Guess it really doesn't matter what your religious belief is after all since the court dismissed a similar case at Eastern Michigan University

Court Upholds Expulsion of Counseling Student Who Opposes Homosexuality

Wonder what happen to \"We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to Anyone?\"

This a rhetorical Question need not be answered.

[fliptw]

The American Counseling Association as a code of ethics; which part of Eastern Michigan University's Counseling program apparently.

Wouldn't willingness to adhere to said code be more of a requirement to get into the program rather than an excuse to expel later?

[Neo]

While I'm against homosexual lifestyles,I can see even more damage being done by a counselor who counsels strictly by their belief systems alone. To be a counselor, you must be able to be totally objective, and part of that objectiveness is not to force your own beliefs or criteria upon others. If you can't counsel without an ounce of judgment, which is commanded also of Christians, then I agree your not capable of being a counselor and are still in need of counsel of yourself. There's so many ways to be persuasive and her lack wisdom here proves to me that she is no where near qualified to advise others.

None of this makes any sense. How can someone be objective without talking about what is true to the best of his knowledge? I'm surprised nobody caught this.

[null0010]

This is only part of a school counselor's job. There's a huge thread on Fark discussing this. A large part of any counselor's job, and any job in the "helping" professions (doctor, psychologist, therapist, counselor, etc) is putting aside your personal beliefs to help your patients. This woman has publicly stated she is not willing to do that.

She literally will not be able to perform her job with this attitude.

Curious, the only thing I read in the articles was:

"Her attorney says in the future if she is working as a counselor and there was a conflict of interest that child could be transferred to another counselor."

School Counselors are not psychiatrist, they are not there to treat you for mental disorders. If you are thinking that this is what school counselors are supposed to do then I suggest you reevaluate your understanding of them.

Curious, there seems to be more than one article, some with more facts than others:

http://www.news.com.au/world/georgia-un ... 5897785819

http://theundergroundsite.com/index.php ... lity-13094

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=182441

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... ian-views/

http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/07/s ... lsion.html

http://www.therealstevegray.com/2010/07 ... ting-fags/

A school counselor is in a position to greatly influence children, children who may in emotional distress and vulnerable. And children do not get to choose their school counselor, as an adult might choose his/her own counselor/psychiatrist. A school counselor is forced upon the children and their parents.

Given this, a school counselor should not harbor prejudice - no matter what the source - against students she will be counseling. What is she going to say to a gay kid? "You're right. You are bad. Have you heard of ex-gay ministries?"

What if her religion said Jews were evil, or she interpreted the Bible as saying blacks are less than human? Or women should stay in the kitchen under a burka?

If you are a proud and self-professed bigot, counselling children is not the job for you. She can get a flim-flam degree from some Pat Robertson school that shares her beliefs, and counsel and damage students in a religious setting that embraces prejudice on religious grounds.

She is demanding that they to give her authority (degree) to damage certain children in the name of her religion. They should kick her ass out.

Furthermore, she's disagreeing with the curriculum. Imagine a chemistry major getting bent out of shape because he doesn't believe in covalent bonds, or he thinks Avagadro's number is incorrect.

[Heretic]

So no matter how hard you try each and every one of the human race is prejudice in one way or another. Don't try and deign it cause you would be a lair.

Prejudice Is Hard-Wired Into The Human Brain, Says ASU Study

[woodchip]

A school counselor is in a position to greatly influence children, children who may in emotional distress and vulnerable. And children do not get to choose their school counselor, as an adult might choose his/her own counselor/psychiatrist. A school counselor is forced upon the children and their parents.

So kinda like schools openly promoting gay lifstyles as being OK?

"A professional organization for pediatricians has dispatched letters to thousands of school superintendents across the United States with a warning that promoting – or "affirming" – the homosexual lifestyle to young children can damage them.

The letter was sent just days ago by the American College of Pediatricians, a nonprofit organization funded by members and donors, to school superintendents that tells them plainly, "It is not the school's role to diagnose and attempt to treat any student's medical condition, and certainly not a school's role to 'affirm' a student's perceived personal sexual orientation."
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=137709

She is demanding that they to give her authority (degree) to damage certain children in the name of her religion. They should kick her ass out.

From one of your links:

"After a client asked Miss Ward for advice on a same-sex relationship, she asked her adviser on how to help her client because, she said, she couldn't morally affirm such relationships. Miss Ward ultimately referred her client to another counselor."

So here we have another case where a student is kicked. Not because she was going to preach religious dogma against homosexuality, but because of the conflict the student would have with the client and so she would have the client passed on to another counselor. OTOH it is OK for schools to promote a gay life style that may be repugnant to many of the students. So what is worse? Not proselytizing your religious belief and passing the client to someone else or forcing children to learn of a lifestyle that they and their parents do not want to learn about? Perhaps the real people who need to have their "ass" kicked are those promoting a lifestyle viewed as unnatural by the majority of the people.

[Tunnelcat]

Oh, and it's OK to \"promote\" a \"Christian Lifestyle\" when a professional is counseling someone? How about a Muslim counselor \"promoting\" an Islamic lifestyle? Ooooooooooooooh, booga, booga! Helping gay students WITHOUT having to have the \"Christian Lifestyle\" pushed on them by some counselor is NOT \"promoting\" a \"Gay Lifestyle\" and Christians just can't seem to let that one pass because they keep on believing being gay is a \"choice\". By the way, being \"Christian\" IS a choice.

[woodchip]

TC, where did the girl ever say she was going to push her christian beliefs on a gay student? What I hear are a lot of assumptions.

[AlphaDoG]

Oh, and it's OK to "promote" a "Christian Lifestyle" when a professional is counseling someone? How about a Muslim counselor "promoting" an Islamic lifestyle? Ooooooooooooooh, booga, booga! Helping gay students WITHOUT having to have the "Christian Lifestyle" pushed on them by some counselor is NOT "promoting" a "Gay Lifestyle" and Christians just can't seem to let that one pass because they keep on believing being gay is a "choice". By the way, being "Christian" IS a choice.

Whatever! I'm sure there are already Muslim, Gay and Lesbian counselors out there already. So why is it such a big deal if she also wants to be out there?

Seems that simply being a Christian is enough to exclude anyone from being anything, in your mind.

[flip]

Because Neo, counselors should be better listeners than they are talkers and by listening they allow the subject to work through their own problems themselves and then their mental health becomes one of their own making. My point about this girl specifically is that she shows no discretion and seems to be very near sighted. Not capable of good counsel in my opinion. It would seem obvious to me that she is not able to use good sense about her own welfare, so I would have to assume that no way she could she do it for others.

[CUDA]

Because Neo, counselors should be better listeners than they are talkers and by listening they allow the subject to work through their own problems themselves and then their mental health becomes one of their own making. My point about this girl specifically is that she shows no discretion and seems to be very near sighted. Not capable of good counsel in my opinion. It would seem obvious to me that she is not able to use good sense about her own welfare, so I would have to assume that no way she could she do it for others.

and your basing this Psychiatric evaluation on what???
a news paper article?????

[Neo]

heh Well obviously if someone isn't qualified to counsel people, he shouldn't do it. If one is, he should say what he knows is right, else he is being subjective.

[flip]

Nope that's all me there. On the fact that she has gotten her self expelled for not having enough good sense to know when to shut up and on the fact that a counselor should be able to counsel anyone. If in fact they are really cut out for the job. Like Null pointed out, a student doesn't get to pick their school counselor and the counselor doesn't get to pick the student.

[Neo]

oops, didn't mean to post again x_x

[Flatlander]

So kinda like schools openly promoting gay lifstyles as being OK?

"A professional organization for pediatricians has dispatched letters to thousands of school superintendents across the United States with a warning that promoting – or "affirming" – the homosexual lifestyle to young children can damage them.

The letter was sent just days ago by the American College of Pediatricians, a nonprofit organization funded by members and donors, to school superintendents that tells them plainly, "It is not the school's role to diagnose and attempt to treat any student's medical condition, and certainly not a school's role to 'affirm' a student's perceived personal sexual orientation."
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=137709

Oh, that's rich. The American College of Pediatricians is a religious organization that pushes its own religious agenda. One of the people associated with it is George Alan Rekers. From his Wikipedia entry:

Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D, Director of the National Institutes of Health, NIH, U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, made the following statement regarding the American College of Pediatricians on April 15, 2010:

"It is disturbing for me to see special interest groups distort my scientific observations to make a point against homosexuality. The American College of Pediatricians pulled language out of context from a book I wrote in 2006 to support an ideology that can cause unnecessary anguish and encourage prejudice. The information they present is misleading and incorrect, and it is particularly troubling that they are distributing it in a way that will confuse school children and their parents."

In 2010, a letter and "fact sheet" about teen sexual orientation and gender confusion, challenged as non-factual by the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychological Association, were mailed to 14,800 school superintendents on behalf of Tom Benton, president of the American College of Pediatricians. The letter primarily addressed same-sex attraction, and recommended that “well-intentioned but misinformed school personnel” who encourage students to “come out as gay” and affirm them as such may lead the students into “harmful homosexual behaviors that they otherwise would not pursue.” The letter also stated that gender identity disorder will typically disappear by puberty “if the behavior is not reinforced.”

You might want to read the rest of his Wikipedia entry, especially the "Rentboy" section, it is quite enlightening

[flip]

I definitely don't think we should be encouraging kids to think being gay is alright. It's obviously a destructive and unhealthy lifestyle. It has all the merits of being wrong. A great deal of them either commit suicide, die of horrendous diseases, live their lives in shame and secrecy, of become so abrasively outspoken it's disgusting (gay pride marches). Anywhere or anytime else that would be considered lewd behavior, but as long as it's a gay pride march I guess it's acceptable. I think the best way to counsel them wouldn't be too shame or ostracize them more(gay pride marches), but to gently point out how their decisions have adversely been affecting them.

[null0010]

Perhaps the real people who need to have their "ass" kicked are those promoting a lifestyle viewed as unnatural by the majority of the people.

Citation. Needed.

A great deal of them either commit suicide, die of horrendous diseases, live their lives in shame and secrecy, of become so abrasively outspoken it's disgusting (gay pride marches). Anywhere or anytime else that would be considered lewd behavior, but as long as it's a gay pride march I guess it's acceptable. I think the best way to counsel them wouldn't be too shame or ostracize them more(gay pride marches), but to gently point out how their decisions have adversely been affecting them.

Again, citation? Simply being gay is no more dangerous than anything else. Straight people have unprotected anal sex too, and straight people also get involved in ridiculously flamboyant and over-the-top antics in full view of the public. Like getting really drunk after the the football team wins the champeenship and running around the streets, or Improv Amywhere, and so on. What you're taking issue with here is annoying people, not gay people.

[Ferno]

don't expect a source from him null, but rather a filibuster. he's our resident redneck homophobe.


flip: yeah i spent the last twenty minutes reading about the College of Pediatricians. They promote some really messed up stuff, especially since I know someone that puts a lot of their positions into question.


but then I saw this from you:

A great deal of them either commit suicide, die of horrendous diseases, live their lives in shame and secrecy, of become so abrasively outspoken it's disgusting (gay pride marches). Anywhere or anytime else that would be considered lewd behavior, but as long as it's a gay pride march I guess it's acceptable. I think the best way to counsel them wouldn't be too shame or ostracize them more(gay pride marches), but to gently point out how their decisions have adversely been affecting them.

Correlation does not imply causation.

in other words: you're WRONG!

[flip]

Well we have totally different core beliefs Ferno so your response is predictable. I didn't say all of them, I said a great deal of them. I'm sure some of them carry no shame at all, but like Neo said, shame is subjective too. Can't anyone here tell me that it's normal behavior, but I as a christian am commanded to build people up, and not destroy. As far as the so-called College of Pediatricians, what do I care what they think, I speak from my heart and what seems right to me. I do feel that homosexuality is a sexual dysfunction, on the same level of pedophilia but without an unwilling victim. It's not normal even to the majority of believers and unbelievers alike though slowly with indoctrination that is changing. All that said, I'm not asking you to agree with me, just stating my opinion on the matter and also making a point that people should be kind and respectful others to the best of their ability. I do question the absolute honesty of this person that you know though.

[roid]

A great deal of them either commit suicide, die of horrendous diseases, live their lives in shame and secrecy, of become so abrasively outspoken it's disgusting (gay pride marches).

The generally accepted theory is that suicide is common in gays because society is full of hateful biggots.

Quite simply - you cause gay suicide.

[flip]

There is also a commonly held belief that the decline of morality destroys nations.

[Spidey]

Well, lets not confuse being gay with the “gay lifestyle”.

[null0010]

Can't anyone here tell me that it's normal behavior

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Kinsey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Ins ... production

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

On the same token, many people feel that faith is a mental illness. I submit to you that if a person's choice of sexual pleasure is an illness, then a person's choice of undocumentable and scientifically unprovable deity is also an illness. At least, one of them has a tangible, real-world benefit: pleasure.

[flip]

Aint no sense in arguing about whether homosexuality is right or wrong and nothing you posted proves anything. There are many real world situations that proves it's aberrant behavior. Chickens eat their own crap, so do dogs and goats piss all on their beards, not a good argument for homosexuality in my book. I also don't know about you but when I wipe I try not to get any on my hands. I'm just saying that if your gonna counsel \"obviously\" damaged people then do it for their good or not at all.

[null0010]

Oh. I see.