Whoa is something wrong here.

[Heretic]

http://www.thegeorgetowndish.com/thedis ... dle-school



Or is it just me?

[Will Robinson]

not only wrong but the people involved had to know they were dealing with an audience that was too young for the material. As a parent I'd be in jail now for what I would do to the asshat who described anal to my 11 year old. In fact describing anal to an 11 year old would land someone in jail if they weren't hired by the government to do it!!

[Gooberman]

Southpark did an incredably funny Sex education spoof a few years back, where Mr. Garrison tought kindergardners how to put on a condum and learn the terms of differnet positions....

I don't think it would be quite as funny I watched it today...

[Bet51987]

.

[Heretic]

I give you that Bee. Some 12 year olds are having sex roughly about 12%. So what about the other 88 percent? Should they be questioned about sex without the parents being present or informed? Would you like for some one to question your child when you have one about sex? Would you want someone other than you describing oral and anal sex to your child?

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 040809.php

[Bet51987]

.

[Will Robinson]

I give you that Bee. Some 12 year olds are having sex roughly about 12%. So what about the other 88 percent? Should they be questioned about sex without the parents being present or informed? Would you like for some one to question your child when you have one about sex? Would you want someone other than you describing oral and anal sex to your child?

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 040809.php

The results you posted are for one, albeit large, school district and not the entire nation. I would also think that many would not admit to having sex of any type because of parental fears so those numbers are actually higher. However, whether 12% or 20%, the younger they are the greater the risk of contracting an STD because of their physiologically increased susceptibility to infection. It's much higher than it would be for a late teen.

So the answer to your question is yes. Sex education (dirty word to some of the righteous) should be required for all students beginning at an early age.

Safety first.

Bee

Bee, there are all kinds of education. We like to keep it tailored to the age of the child and instructions on how to "Make sure you.... can convince a reluctant partner to use barrier protection (i.e. condoms, dental dams) during sex." etc. are for an older audience.
The fact that the instructor had to stop the regular presentation to define anal sex should be a signal that something is wrong. A signal that you seem to overlook just like they did.

Your knee jerk reaction to any conservative resistance is symptomatic of the very thing we are finding fault with here.
It's not that Sex Ed is bad it is that liberals think one size fits all and if it pisses off a conservative it must be good.
It's typical for the left to victimize the very people they claim to champion. Not seeing the fault in this case falls right in line with that.

[Spidey]

These types of classes/tests need to be optional, no exceptions…and the material reviewed by the parents.

Then if the parent opts in…fine..if not…then also fine.

Just because an education is mandatory, that doesn’t give someone a license to teach/test anything they want. The biology of sex education belongs in the school, sexual ethics should be taught at home.

I would actually go as far as saying that all classroom curriculum should have to be reviewed and approved by parents…but that’s a different subject. (sort of)

If a 12 year old is having sex, that child is not listening to adults in the first place, so this kind of thing is no more than do gooders feel good. Won’t work, just going to confuse kids even more, and sure as hell not going to help keep kids from having sex. (which should be the first objective)

[Bet51987]

.

[Heretic]

Yep sex education is working

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=6981558&page=1

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-13/heal ... =PM:HEALTH

http://organizedwisdom.com/Pregnancy_an ... mong_Teens

But it's all bush's fualt

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ju ... cdc-report

[AlphaDoG]

... Your knee jerk reaction...etc etc.

I stopped reading right there because the rest is the usual Will Robinson turn every thread into a hatred for Obama, Liberals, Pelosi, Reid, etc etc. You've said nothing.

...If a 12 year old is having sex, that child is not listening to adults in the first place, so this kind of thing is no more than do gooders feel good. Won’t work, just going to confuse kids even more, and sure as hell not going to help keep kids from having sex. (which should be the first objective)

I'm studying diseases as we speak and I can assure you that you haven't a clue. I also didn't know you were an expert in what works and what doesn't. If you did a google search you would find that sex education is working.

Bee

To say that people OLDER than you have no clue speaks volumes about the NO CLUE you have.

[null0010]

age is not an indicator of correctness

[Will Robinson]

age is not an indicator of correctness

No, but in this case it's a safe bet considering she says she stopped reading it at that point but then tells us her interpretation of that which she didn't read accusing me of being 'hateful' toward Obama, Reid and Pelosi (who I never mentioned) and she never addressed the point I raised which makes me think she realized I was correct but her knee was jerking involuntarily so she felt compelled to respond anyway.

Her critique is useless and we will never know if she is in fact correct or at least can bring food for thought to the table because she won't let her position be challenged. She's a drive by poster. She makes a charge then dodges any serious challenge to her assertions. Same old Bee, different day.

[null0010]

yes, but saying she is wrong because of her age is equally silly

[Spidey]

Ok, I need to make something clear…I never said education doesn’t work, I implied that this particular kind of survey sends the wrong message to kids. How you came up with the notion that I believe education doesn’t work is your own machination.

I believe in age appropriate, comprehensive education.

What I can gather from this survey, is that it pretty much assumes these kids are sexually active, or about to become. That is the wrong message, I’m talking about. You need to be very careful about these things.

“If you decide to have sex (or the next time you have sex)…”

Huh! How about you begin with…

The best option to avoid STDs and pregnancy is to abstain from having sex…but if you do decide to…

Or…

You shouldn’t be having sex at 12 years old, for a number of reasons…but if you decide…

That “if you decide” really rubs me the wrong way! Children need to be taught that they shouldn’t be “deciding” such things at that age, then and only then, do you move on.

And I could go on and on with all of the other factors in society, that affect this issue other than education…such as welfare reform (and its failure) to peer pressure, and mass media, that has more affect than the education system.

And, don’t even get me started on the parents responsibility…

Oh, and just one last thing…I never said I was an “expert” in these matters…this is an opinion forum.

[woodchip]

I submit the best education is hands on education. To wit:

I propose all students required to take these sex ed classes have to first get naked in class. The girls can then take the school supplied condoms and practice putting them on the boys. At this point exercises in different positions will be practiced. During the class videos will be made as a way to critique students and later sold to a mass marketing firm, much like a school bake sale to help raise funds to further help the education process.

A school counselor named \"Bee\" will be there to allay any concerns the girls may have about losing their virginity (who needs it)and to instruct all students not to tell their parents about the class. After-all, the school knows better about this sort of thing and if you do tell, you will be held back a year for psychological evaluation. Welcome to the Brave New World.

[CUDA]

sorry Wood that deserves a

[null0010]

Seems like a good idea to me. At least then we won't have any people who are just terrible in bed.

[Spidey]

Yea, because school teachers are known to be awesome in bed.

Home schooling gets a little scary too…

[Heretic]

Home schooling gets a little scary too…

My sister and girlfriend took first and second place in a wet tee-shirt contest. To bad they're one and the same

[CUDA]

Yea, because school teachers are known to be awesome in bed.

well since we home schooled our kids and my wife was their teacher. I'll need to give a great big thumbs up on that comment

[Flatlander]

I submit the best education is hands on education. To wit:

I propose all students required to take these sex ed classes have to first get naked in class. The girls can then take the school supplied condoms and practice putting them on the boys. At this point exercises in different positions will be practiced. During the class videos will be made as a way to critique students and later sold to a mass marketing firm, much like a school bake sale to help raise funds to further help the education process.

A school counselor named "Bee" will be there to allay any concerns the girls may have about losing their virginity (who needs it)and to instruct all students not to tell their parents about the class. After-all, the school knows better about this sort of thing and if you do tell, you will be held back a year for psychological evaluation. Welcome to the Brave New World.

I like the Monty Python method, myself (from Meaning of Life).

[Bet51987]

.

[null0010]

Yea, because school teachers are known to be awesome in bed.

Well, my fiancee is a school teacher, so...

[woodchip]

sorry Wood that deserves a

Perhaps Cuda, but I submit back in the late 50's early 60's if I would of posted that kindergarten kids were going to have sex ed class and 11-12 year old daughters were going to be taught about condoms and anal sex....I bet I would of got more than

[Krom]

Perhaps Cuda, but I submit back in the late 50's early 60's if I would of posted that kindergarten kids were going to have sex ed class and 11-12 year old daughters were going to be taught about condoms and anal sex....I bet I would of got more than

Yeah those were the good old days back when kids had "responsible parents", shucks they are pretty much extinct these days.

[TIGERassault]

Just passing by (I like to still read threads here now and again, for old times' sake) but I think I'll chip in here.

It's wrong. So very very wrong.
It's not wrong in theory - kids should know what sex, STDs, and marijuana are by age 12 so it should be okay to quiz them about it - but the way it was done was disastrous.
Firstly, there's the lack of proper responsibility from the authorities. Not giving adults proper notification was wrong, not keeping results confidential is very wrong, and the teacher explaining what anal sex is is actually teaching unsafe sex.
Secondly, the actual text. Which is several points itself:

-Like Spidey said, the phrasing is completely wrong, and nearly gives the impression that it's encouraging you to do these things. "How many days have you used marijuana" is very different from "If you have used Marijuana, how many days have you used it for". "The last time you had sex, did you X" is an especially notable offended.

-Some questions are complete rubbish! "Specifically how likely are you going to do X". "How much do you think people risk their health/success by taking completely unspecific drugs".

-It repeatedly uses "Oral, anal, and vaginal sex" as terms. It shouldn't, it really shouldn't. For the same reason that the teacher explaining them is wrong. Even worse is that it acknowledges that the students shouldn't automatically know the terms in one question, but uses them anyway.

-It's screwed. I get why there's a focus on marijuana, but it repeatedly focuses on condoms and HIV as opposed to keeping all things general. It's called a sex survey, but there's only one question on pregnancy and none on alternative birth control - it's all about STDs, really, but it's not going to be actually treated as such by "professionals".




On the other hand, I'm not quite sure why I said all this - it should be fairly obvious for anyone interested enough to read it. Ah well, thought exercise etc.


Also, Bet: Really? A "You are saying knowledge is bad" image macro? Before even hearing the guy out? Grow up already!




Edit:

Yea, because school teachers are known to be awesome in bed.

Well, my fiancee is a school teacher, so...

And that's when I learned to stop visiting this forum. Squick!

[null0010]

Yea, because school teachers are known to be awesome in bed.

Well, my fiancee is a school teacher, so...

And that's when I learned to stop visiting this forum. Squick!

Hey, Cuda said it first.

[Bet51987]

.

[Lothar]

sex education is working.

...

Sex education should be required for all students beginning at an early age.

Yes, but that doesn't mean all forms and variants of sex education are good ones. Woodchip's example was over the top disgusting, but that was the point -- saying "sex education works" and "sex education should be required at an early age" is a poor answer to critiques of this particular example of sex education being age-inappropriate, and it's a poor answer to critiques that keeping parents in the dark about what their kids will be taught is problematic.

Would you want the Texas or Kansas boards of education to hide what they're teaching your kids about other subjects? If not, then why is it OK in this case?

At what age do you think anal sex should be covered in sex ed? Would you be OK with a school board deciding to teach it to your child a year or two before that?

[Bet51987]

.

[CUDA]

I chose the image based on the conservative mentality toward education, especially sex education and the fact that this is a conservative forum. By that I mean that conservatives tend to teach abstinence or "just say no"

what a load of crap. Conservatives tend to teach personal responsibility. that the choices you make affect your life and the life of your partner, Sex is more than just pleasure. it is a physical and emotional bond that once formed can never be broken. EVERYONE remembers who their first one was. so do the Right thing choose to be responsible.
while abstinence is a part of that personal responsibility, OBVIOUSLY you fail to understand that way of thinking, why am I not surprised.

so they don't have to use words like penis, vagina, orgasm, oral, anal, etc, and in my second post I gave you an age related reason why a 12 year old needs to know more about the dangers of STD's than a 19 year old.

WELL since your SUCH an expert in the field of child rearing. I'm sure your baseing this off of the many years of experience you have in the field.
As a conservative father with 8 children. I assure you that I was never afraid to talk to my children, Sons and Daughters, openly and very frankly about sex, the use of Drugs, and the dangers over over indulgence of alcohol. I've embarassed my eldest daughter to the point of having to redface talk to her mother asking if what I said was true.

We dont need a Nanny state to raise our children. what we need is more parents making the choice to be accountable for their actions.
Men not neglecting being a Man and leading their Families.
Women not thinking they dont need a Man and they can do it on their own.
the single biggest issue with the breakdown of society has been the single parent family.

[null0010]

Sex is more than just pleasure. it is a physical and emotional bond that once formed can never be broken.

That sounds more like a personal opinion than a fact.

Conservatives tend to teach personal responsibility. that the choices you make affect your life and the life of your partner

Personal responsibility is the aim of this type of education. The point of it is to get young people to make responsible decisions about sex (defining "irresponsible" as "having sex without protecting yourself against unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases") by providing them with as much information as possible about the subject matter so they can make the most informed decision. Ignorance is not conductive to responsibility.

As a conservative father with 8 children. I assure you that I was never afraid to talk to my children, Sons and Daughters, openly and very frankly about sex, the use of Drugs, and the dangers over over indulgence of alcohol. I've embarassed my eldest daughter to the point of having to redface talk to her mother asking if what I said was true.

This is commendable but it is not a scientific sampling of parents across America. Not every person with children is going to treat the subject with the same sort of responsibility and attention that you have.

We dont need a Nanny state to raise our children. what we need is more parents making the choice to be accountable for their actions.

It is unfortunate that we need such systems in place in order to ensure the responsibility of our young people in the face of the irresponsibility of our older people, but think about this: If we had such comprehensive sex education programs when you were in school, we would have less irresponsible parents today, and therefore we would have less of a problem in the first place.

[AlphaDoG]

This is commendable but it is not a scientific sampling of parents across America. Not every person with children is going to treat the subject with the same sort of responsibility and attention that you have.

It's usually bleeding heart liberals that think their children should have rights enough to NOT be taught by their parents and so you are right that SOMEONE needs to do it.

D'oh!

[AlphaDoG]

So you do that by inserting a picture of a prostitute into your previous post and claim,

It is unfortunate that we need such systems in place in order to ensure the responsibility of our young people in the face of the irresponsibility of our older people, but think about this: If we had such comprehensive sex education programs when you were in school, we would have less irresponsible parents today, and therefore we would have less of a problem in the first place.

What is indeed unfortunate is the fact that liberal teachers and teachers unions take it upon themselves to attempt to raise responsible people's children without consent from said parents. What is also unfortunate is that teachers do NOT take the time to teach kids about respect for others. If a child learns respect, they will respect the wishes and feelings of everyone around them and therefore would get respect back from everyone.

I learned a long time ago, that to get respect you must first give respect. Whether it be in the form of self respect or not.

[CUDA]

Sex is more than just pleasure. it is a physical and emotional bond that once formed can never be broken.

That sounds more like a personal opinion than a fact.

SO are you implying that all men are John's and all women are Whores? my point is valid, there are exceptions to every rule.

Conservatives tend to teach personal responsibility. that the choices you make affect your life and the life of your partner

Personal responsibility is the aim of this type of education. The point of it is to get young people to make responsible decisions about sex (defining "irresponsible" as "having sex without protecting yourself against unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases") by providing them with as much information as possible about the subject matter so they can make the most informed decision. Ignorance is not conductive to responsibility.

you apparently didn't read the story. this was not just an education class. it was a Survey about sexual practices. why are you surveying a 12 year old about Anal Sex?

The program was not just for education, but for research. The letter notified parents that, by participating in the program, their child would be a "research subject"

We dont need a Nanny state to raise our children. what we need is more parents making the choice to be accountable for their actions.

It is unfortunate that we need such systems in place in order to ensure the responsibility of our young people in the face of the irresponsibility of our older people,

this much we can agree on

but think about this: If we had such comprehensive sex education programs when you were in school, we would have less irresponsible parents today, and therefore we would have less of a problem in the first place

NO if we had had more accountability classes in school when I grew up we wouldn't have the need for sex education classes for 12 year old's in school today

[fliptw]

NO if we had had more accountability classes in school when I grew up we wouldn't have the need for sex education classes for 12 year old's in school today

How exactly do you draw this conclusion? Your statement doesn't really make any sense.

[CUDA]

it does when you read it in reference to Nulls comments.

[fliptw]

I guess; however the parents null is talking about would've slacked or never attended these \"Accountability classes\" to begin with.

[Lothar]

I have a feeling that in this forum it isn't about how it was presented but more about whether it should have been presented at all...

I chose the image based on the conservative mentality toward education, especially sex education...

Using Woodchip's disgusting example as a point is disgusting in itself and just emboldens him to dump more of his trash in here.

I'm well aware that I'm encouraging woodchip. Are you aware of how much you encourage him?

You have this unfortunate habit of ignoring the important parts of what people actually say, and either responding to minor points, or responding to what you think they should have said based on what you feel about them based on stereotypes (as in the other two sentences I quoted above). When you dodge and avoid and make up positions you think the rest of us should hold, it becomes very difficult to have a serious conversation with you, and is often a waste of time. Is it any wonder woodchip would resort to trolling you (especially after your first post was a trolling image) instead of trying to engage you substantively?

-----

Now, I actually will engage you substantively, and hopefully you'll show me enough respect not to waste any more of my time with trolling or arguing about stuff you feel conservatives should believe.

Your characterization of conservatives as being against sex ed except for abstinence-only is an unwarranted stereotype. Even your favorite target, Sarah Palin, doesn't advocate abstinence-only education. The vast majority of conservatives want kids to have an appropriate education in order to equip them to make wise decisions.

Where many of us differ (from you and each other) is on two points:

1) what exactly is an "appropriate" education? For example, at what age should we discuss certain topics, and to what detail level?

2) who should be in charge of deciding the answer to question #1 for any given kid?

I personally think kids should know about sex from about age 3 or 4, in a very basic sense. When they get to an age where they could be sexually active (puberty), they should know about STDs (including that they can be transmitted through all forms of sexual contact) and pregnancy. They should also know about the emotional aspects of sex, including the level of emotional vulnerability it can create (which isn't necessarily a bad thing!)

I also think if someone else is going to be teaching my kid about sex, I damn well better know exactly what it is that they are saying so I can make sure (a) they're getting a complete picture instead of a slanted picture, (b) the details they're getting are accurate, (c) they're not being indoctrinated, and (d) they're not being pressured or encouraged to become active. And if the school is failing on those points, I want the option to remove my kid from that environment so that they won't anti-educate him. It is, quite simply, not OK for the school to keep what they're going to teach my kid a secret from me.

As null0010 said, personal responsibility is the aim of sex education. But I question whether the specific details of the sex ed program I read in the original links would actually accomplish that goal, and as a parent, I want the ability to give my kid a better quality of education than that.

Let me re-ask a previous question in a more clear way:

Imagine that you have done all the research you wanted to, and decided that a child should be taught about anal sex at age 12, but not earlier. Now imagine I got elected to the school board and decided to teach your child about anal sex at age 8, even though you think it's a terrible idea. Would you have a problem with that? Would you want to have the ability to override the school district if their idea of sex education was inappropriate for your child?