DescentBB

The Obama argument is we need to llet the current tax rates expire because \"america can't afford them\" and sites the current lack of jobs etc as reason why the government needs the extra revenue. Well the government already spent 100 times the difference in revenue on it's stimulus package and two things have happened.
1 - a lot of the money that was 'so urgently needed' has never been spent (yet you are a babie killer if you suggest using those unspent funds for funding unemployment extensions...)

2 - the money that was spent has done little to nothing to improve our economic outlook. The banks that were friends-of-Obama and the Unions have had their outlook upgraded substantially but over all we're still deep in the doo doo.

So if the government has failed so miserably to spend our way out of this mess (such an obviously stupid proposal to begin with) then why not extend the tax cuts and even add to them with incentives like a moratorium on other financial disincentives and let the people who are really shovel ready get down to work on the kind of projects that put people back to work!!
The people that do the hiring and meet the payroll for 90% of this country's workforce are afraid to spend a single penny to jump start their piece of the economic engine that can propel this country out of the ditch we're in because the government won't even say yea or nay on where the taxes are going to be for them or what kind of financial penalties await them on the healthcare front.

The Obama administration is prolonging our pain because they are anti-capitalist, anti-business and think all the answers to the country's woes have always been right there in the governments bag of tricks. Well now that these liberal elite have had a look into that supposed magical bag of resource they discover that there isn't anything in there that they recognize as a solution because they look for piles of money to hand out and instead all that is in there is debts, IOU's and the switch to turn on and off business killing regulation and stifling taxation.

someone please tell them to just turn of those switches, put the bag down and step away from our recovery...we'll take it from here thankyouverymuch!!

If you ask me they need look only to the great depression and its recovery to find out how we should get out of our current one.

PUT PEOPLE TO WORK!

Our infrastructure is falling apart. Repair it and improve it. Millions of potential jobs there.

Screw government handouts to banks and unions. The handouts should be in the form of earmarks specifically for repairing and building stuff.

Avder wrote:If you ask me they need look only to the great depression and its recovery to find out how we should get out of our current one.

PUT PEOPLE TO WORK!

Our infrastructure is falling apart. Repair it and improve it. Millions of potential jobs there.

Screw government handouts to banks and unions. The handouts should be in the form of earmarks specifically for repairing and building stuff.

I think this is exactly right.

Gooberman wrote:

Avder wrote:If you ask me they need look only to the great depression and its recovery to find out how we should get out of our current one.

PUT PEOPLE TO WORK!

Our infrastructure is falling apart. Repair it and improve it. Millions of potential jobs there.

Screw government handouts to banks and unions. The handouts should be in the form of earmarks specifically for repairing and building stuff.

I think this is exactly right.

We've got 800 trillion dollar$ already "spent" with that premise as the main reason for the expenditure. So while we wait for the assholes in charge of that proposed solution lets simply not take anymore capital away from the real producers in the economy and see how they can do....

America is done for because all the lawmakers are too blinded by money from monopolies that they protect at the expense of society. The wealthy already gather most of the money in the economy and because of that it just pools up and stagnates. They don't make jobs in America because employing Americans is too expensive.

Warren Buffet: "Pretty Good for Government Work"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/opini ... ef=opinion

Warren Buffet wrote:Only one counterforce was available, and that was you, Uncle Sam. Yes, you are often clumsy, even inept. But when businesses and people worldwide race to get liquid, you are the only party with the resources to take the other side of the transaction. And when our citizens are losing trust by the hour in institutions they once revered, only you can restore calm.

When the crisis struck, I felt you would understand the role you had to play. But you’ve never been known for speed, and in a meltdown minutes matter. I worried whether the barrage of shattering surprises would disorient you. You would have to improvise solutions on the run, stretch legal boundaries and avoid slowdowns, like Congressional hearings and studies. You would also need to get turf-conscious departments to work together in mounting your counterattack. The challenge was huge, and many people thought you were not up to it.

Well, Uncle Sam, you delivered. People will second-guess your specific decisions; you can always count on that. But just as there is a fog of war, there is a fog of panic — and, overall, your actions were remarkably effective.

null0010 wrote:Warren Buffet: "Pretty Good for Government Work"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/opini ... ef=opinion

Warren Buffet wrote:...Warren thanks the government for saving his ass and that off the other friends-of-government....

So are you suggesting the current administration is actually doing a good job for average taxpayers and the small businesses?
Just because the guys with the big money had their forunes protected doesn't mean squat to the rest of us. The Obama method of operation is, in their own words, "never let a crisis go to waste". And that is exactly why they have protected the big money guys and their big donors (Unions etc.) and they are not about to let the rest of us recover too quickly without extracting as much political hay as possible as well as use this opportunity to break institutions they think are inherently evil....like evil profit making as they would call it.

There is no excuse for doing anything that stifles investment right now. The tax revenue they claim they would lose if the tax cuts are sustained is a fraction of what they already added to our tab. And don't forget the whole premise of calling it a loss...money they "can't afford to give to the rich" is a crock of ★■◆● since the figure represents money they don't earn or create but is simply a projection of what they could pull in if they increase the current tax rate. they are not giving anything, not to the rich or even the middle class! Tax revenue is the property of the people who earn it as wages and salary and returns on investment that is confiscated by armed force and they have balls the size of Jupiter to suggest, in the light of their recent stimulus grab-and-stash maneuver, that they need it to help us!!

They have proven that with their $800 billion stimulus package followed with their $200 billion that they don't even know what to do with the money they already took!

The Buffets of the world will soon be singing the tune I'm warming you up to once they realize that, yes, their butts are safe but now who's going to buy their stuff?!? NO ONE is until the rest of us get to earn some to spend!! And there will be no increase in earners or earnings until the people who actually make the payroll for the 90% of the workers feel safe enough to grow their operations!
Gates, Buffet, et al, while making these grand gestures in front of the camera are at the same time sheltering their funds off shore.
Buffets little thank you note is as self serving as it gets and Obama is just the kind of guy who gets off on having that smoke blown up his butt!

Thanks a trillion Uncle Warren...for nothing!

What would you expect Buffett to say, he want’s the government…errrr taxpayer to shell out the trillions for the power transmission infrastructure, so his wind farm idea will work.

Can you say...suck up.

……………………

And, lets not forget the fact that the government had plenty of cash to throw around at the time of the Depression, and the part WWII played.

Will Robinson wrote: There is no excuse for doing anything that stifles investment right now.

Whats stifling investment is the fact that the super rich are doing nothing but hoarding, which they will do regardless of if they are taxed or not so I say TAX THEM. I say tax that big pool of hoarded money as if it were real estate. Money that is just sitting around does no good for anybody, and the rich sure as hell dont need it right now.

You make it sound like that money is somewhere in America to be taxed in the first place... Let alone the entire concept of taxing someones savings because it is too much seems a little off to me... Oh wait, they did raid social security so this wouldn't be the first time they would just take someone's savings.

Lol, yea just tax that huge pile of 100 dollar bills the rich have stashed under their beds…You really don’t understand how wealth is maintained do you? The rich are not stupid enough to just let stacks of cash devalue as they look at it. Most wealth is kept in assets other than cash, such as stocks, bonds, investments, property and machinery etc. Most of which is already being taxed or been taxed, and good luck on converting the rest into that imaginary pile of cash, so you can \"tax it\".

And what cash is being held, is in banks, and they are not lending it…so that’s really where the problem lies. After all of the effort…banks are not lending yet.

Spidey wrote:Lol, yea just tax that huge pile of 100 dollar bills the rich have stashed under their beds…You really don’t understand how wealth is maintained do you? The rich are not stupid enough to just let stacks of cash devalue as they look at it. Most wealth is kept in assets other than cash, such as stocks, bonds, investments, property and machinery etc. Most of which is already being taxed or been taxed, and good luck on converting the rest into that imaginary pile of cash, so you can "tax it".

And what cash is being held, is in banks, and they are not lending it…so that’s really where the problem lies. After all of the effort…banks are not lending yet.

So count it all up, exempt stuff thats legitimately invested in real growth, and if the total is beyond some extravagent number, say, 500 million to a billion, and take a few percent in tax revenue.

Avder wrote:

Will Robinson wrote: There is no excuse for doing anything that stifles investment right now.

Whats stifling investment is the fact that the super rich are doing nothing but hoarding, which they will do regardless of if they are taxed or not so I say TAX THEM. I say tax that big pool of hoarded money as if it were real estate. Money that is just sitting around does no good for anybody, and the rich sure as hell dont need it right now.

This reminds me a child saying "Daddy he has more ice cream than me." Get over it they have earned their money it's not up to daddy Obama to make sure life is fair.

Heretic wrote:

Avder wrote:

Will Robinson wrote: There is no excuse for doing anything that stifles investment right now.

Whats stifling investment is the fact that the super rich are doing nothing but hoarding, which they will do regardless of if they are taxed or not so I say TAX THEM. I say tax that big pool of hoarded money as if it were real estate. Money that is just sitting around does no good for anybody, and the rich sure as hell dont need it right now.

This reminds me a child saying "Daddy he has more ice cream than me." Get over it they have earned their money it's not up to daddy Obama to make sure life is fair.

It could be a response to the middle class median income actually going down and the top 2% gaining a massive increase for income... the balance from Americas "golden times" as a lot of people see it have gone out the window.

Avder wrote:If you ask me they need look only to the great depression and its recovery to find out how we should get out of our current one.

Actually Avder, some would say the govt only prolonged the depression and it was WW2 that really got things going again. In a more modern day example, Japan tried the govt. intervention route to help their economy (along with a higher taxation rate to fund it). The Japanese govt. now realizes, after 10 years of recession, that they cannot fix the problem and thus are reducing the tax rates.

Avder wrote:...
So count it all up, exempt stuff thats legitimately invested in real growth, and if the total is beyond some extravagent number, say, 500 million to a billion, and take a few percent in tax revenue.

The tax code is full of thousands of pages of loopholes that allow the wealthy to manipulate the system to make sure as you start 'counting it up' the money gets allocated to multiple companies all with their exemptions neatly configured just under the threshold you would start taxing it at. You change the threshold they change the number of companies they control///or just move it offshore where you are not allowed to go 'counting'.

Tax code loopholes are the crack cocaine of the politicians world and Washington DC is the corner they stand on selling them to the users but don't go looking to buy your dose with a working mans salary or a pawned gold watch.

Avder wrote:

Spidey wrote:Lol, yea just tax that huge pile of 100 dollar bills the rich have stashed under their beds…You really don’t understand how wealth is maintained do you? The rich are not stupid enough to just let stacks of cash devalue as they look at it. Most wealth is kept in assets other than cash, such as stocks, bonds, investments, property and machinery etc. Most of which is already being taxed or been taxed, and good luck on converting the rest into that imaginary pile of cash, so you can "tax it".

And what cash is being held, is in banks, and they are not lending it…so that’s really where the problem lies. After all of the effort…banks are not lending yet.

So count it all up, exempt stuff thats legitimately invested in real growth, and if the total is beyond some extravagent number, say, 500 million to a billion, and take a few percent in tax revenue.

So why not just give "the rich" some incentives to put their money back into play in the economy? Have the government, starting at the top, stop crapping all over them rhetorically and legislatively. This will actually save the Feds money because they don't have to pay for more IRS policing. It also reduces the inefficiency of "the rich" from having to constantly re-game the system to try to maximize their revenue.

Oh, I can hear the howls already - "the rich" want to maximize their revenue??? Get over it people - we ALL want to maximize our revenue.

As business picks up, you get more revenue into the government coffers; more sales taxes, more payroll taxes, more jobs, more business activity. And all for little or no increase in government expense to get it. (yeah, yeah, you'll still get the occasional Madoff or two; I think we already have rules and regs to cover this)

Mmmm.... gilded age.

null0010 wrote:Mmmm.... gilded age.

first of all that is a silly analogy because modern america and our government have already seen the machinations of wealth creation on that scale and there are plenty of regulations that will never be abandoned to check and balance what was then an unprecedented growth that by todays standards would merely be a recovery...so meh to that whole cynical weaksauce comment.
Second, the Gilded age was a very good thing all things considered. The net positives outweigh the negatives to umpteenth degree and history has it all cataloged for you to examine. Sure we all harp on the incidents of injustice that were sprinkled throughout those times but stop and think of the incredible advances in just about every part of our lives that we enjoy today. A successful country is full of happy people. No that doesn't mean there was no unhappiness but just compare it to some of the alternatives from the same era and then get back to me with your dismissal.

So, you'd be willing to have your hands removed by a meat grinder and sold to school lunch programs as beef in the name of progress?