DescentBB

Palestine and no Israel.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 77,00.html

Poll: Most Palestinians view talks as precursor to 1 state

Disturbing US poll: Most Palestinians refuse to accept idea of Israel as Jewish state, view peace talks, two-state solution as first step towards creation of one Palestinian state in area; 58% support armed struggle

Israel has no place in the middle east (according to most palestinians.)

This hasnt really been news since the 1950s, or whenever the hell it was that Israel was created.

In the end Israel may have the only option of going into Palestine and taking it over. For 50 years the Jews have tried negotiating and in 50 years nothing has been accomplished. Throw stones at a bear long enough and you can expect to get your heiny chewed off.

Oh, yes, it's all the Palestinians' fault. Yes, yes, of course. The Israelis have no choice but to murder the invaders! Kill them all, drive them out of this land that has been Israel for hundreds and hundreds of years.

article wrote:The majority of Palestinians support direct talks and the two-state solution, but ultimately want the entire area between the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea to turn into one Palestinian state, a poll sponsored by The Israel Project, a Jewish-American organization, shows.

This is incredibly vague. It could either mean "we want all of Israel to be Palestine again," or it could mean "we want the Palestinian state to stretch from the West Bank to the Gaza Strip."

article wrote:The data, collected by Greenberg Quinlan Rosner Research in October, shows that the Palestinians blame Hamas for the current state of affairs in the Gaza Strip, and are hostile not only towards the Islamic organization but also towards Iran.

Sounds good to me.

article wrote:According to the poll, 61% of Palestinians from both Gaza and the West Bank support direct negotiations with Israel, and 60% accept the two-state solution. A 54% majority also agree peace is possible with Israel.

Oh, look. The article contradicts its own headline!

You can poll the Palestinians all day everyday and depending on who is watching or how fed up the individual is who is answering you may get some encouraging results however the official answer representing Palestine comes from Tehran and the nutbags in Tehran will be so happy to tell you that there will be no peace until Israel is wiped out.

That has been the way it is for many decades and that is why Arafat, when the Israeli's surprised him during the Clinton era with offering to meet all his demands, walked away from the peace talks. Basically the bluff was called and exposed. The Palestinians are proxy warriors for the Islamo-fascists who have the power in the middle east.

That is why, when Bush aimed his War on Terror at Iraq I was overjoyed thinking we would soon be running operations out of the proposed Super Base in northern Iraq where we would take it to the Iranians and Syrians cutting off the supply lines, intercepting their personnel traveling to and from Tehran, infiltrating there turf with covert ops, etc. etc.
Instead we wimped out.

If you want peace in the middle east focus on Tehran.

You can poll the Israelis all day everyday and depending on who is watching or how fed up the individual is who is answering you may get some encouraging results however the official answer representing Israel comes from Tel Aviv and the nutbags in Tel Aviv will be so happy to tell you that there will be no peace until Palestine is wiped out.

That has been the way it is for many decades and that is why Shimon Peres, when the Palestinians surprised him during the Clinton era with a fair deal that benefited all parties, lied to the world and said \"yes,\" while planning the opposite. Basically the bluff was called and exposed, but no one cared. The Israelis are proxy warriors for the Americans who have the power in the Middle East.

That is why when Bush aimed his War on Terror at Iraq I was dismayed, thinking we would soon be running operations out of the proposed \"Super Base\" in northern Iraq where we would take it to the Iranians and Syrians, needlessly ending lives over an outdated commodity from a dying era. Instead we wimped out.

If you want peace in the middle east focus on Tel Aviv.

Sheesh, nobody studies or reads history anymore.

The \"State of Israel\" was created in 1948 after more than 50 years of efforts to establish a sovereign state as a homeland for Jews. In 1947 the UN had tried to partition the area of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. Naturally, the area was immediately invaded by neighboring Arab armies and Israel's War of Independence took place and ended in 1948 resulting in a 50% increase in the territory of Israel.

Of course, the Palestinians felt they had been dealt with unfairly and have never accepted Israel's right to exist.

Palestine declaring Israel doesn't exist happened 62 years ago.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3581.htm
Just one (of many) sources on the subject.

I wonder how we would react or Native Americans even if the rest of the world decided to give a huge chunk of our land back to Native Americans, and then they were backed by the then most (since we probally wouldn't be anymore)powerful military country in the world. *rubs chin* hrm...

TechPro wrote:Of course, the Palestinians felt they had been dealt with unfairly and have never accepted Israel's right to exist.

Gee, I wonder why the hell they would feel that way? Why would any sane man feel the Palestinians have been treated unjustly? It escapes me. I do not know. Clearly the Palestinians deserve to suffer in squalor and starve to death at the mercy of the just and honorable Israeli government which can do no wrong.

Let's use an analogy. Tomorrow the United Nations decides that the land of the United States of America is the classical homeland of Native Americans. The armies of Europe (for the sake of this discussion let us assume that Europe can kick our butt six ways to Sunday) are ready to back them up on this. They declare that all American institutions of government are hereby null and void, and the Native Americans immediately set up shop and start relocating non-natives to reservations under the authority of the United Nations and Europe. How would that make you, as a citizen of the United States of America, feel?

....great minds think alike? lol

Nobody wanted that total hole in the ground that we call Israel today until the Jews made something out of it. It was worthless no-mans land desert and borderline uninhabitable, at the time the Palestinians couldn't have cared less about it.

Nobody wanted that total hole in the ground that we call America today until the Europeans made something out of it. It was worthless no-mans land wilderness and borderline uninhabitable, at the time the Native Americans couldn't have cared less about it.

Nobody wanted that total hole in the ground that we call Australia today until the Europeans made something out of it. It was worthless no-mans land outback and borderline uninhabitable, at the time the Aborigines couldn't have cared less about it.

Nobody wanted that total hole in the ground that we call South America today until the Europeans made something out of it. It was worthless no-mans land jungle and borderline uninhabitable, at the time the Inca, Maya, and Aztec couldn't have cared less about it.

Totally justifies it. Totally.

null0010 wrote:You can poll the Israelis all day everyday and depending on who is watching or how fed up the individual is who is answering you may get some encouraging results however the official answer representing Israel comes from Tel Aviv and the nutbags in Tel Aviv will be so happy to tell you that there will be no peace until Palestine is wiped out.

That has been the way it is for many decades and that is why Shimon Peres, when the Palestinians surprised him during the Clinton era with a fair deal that benefited all parties, lied to the world and said "yes," while planning the opposite. Basically the bluff was called and exposed, but no one cared. The Israelis are proxy warriors for the Americans who have the power in the Middle East.

That is why when Bush aimed his War on Terror at Iraq I was dismayed, thinking we would soon be running operations out of the proposed "Super Base" in northern Iraq where we would take it to the Iranians and Syrians, needlessly ending lives over an outdated commodity from a dying era. Instead we wimped out.

If you want peace in the middle east focus on Tel Aviv.

Nice try to be clever but full of holes. For example where is the Israeli leader who wanted to compromise that the U.S. has murdered?
Where is the U.S. equivalent of Hamas or the equivalent of Hezbollah both began or now run by the Ayatollah in Iran?
I suppose you'll try to tell me Rabin was killed by U.S. agents posing as radical jews so we could keep the conflict going...so we can ultimately put that outdated commodity in tankers and ship it home?!?? Of course we could have already done that after taking Iraq though couldn't we if that was our plan?
And of course the biggest flaw in your spin is the premise that the U.S. has the power in the middle east!?!! If that were true we wouldn't be their enemy would we?

null0010 wrote:..
Totally justifies it. Totally.

Who ever gave you the silly idea that there is justice between nations? There is always war and the winners get to write the treaties that the loser signs or else...
And it was the Europeans upon the end of WWII that said 'send the jews to the desert, give them a place of their own they are troublsom people we don't want them here'. The U.S. went along with what they expressed was a bad idea Now those same euroweenies scold us for our support for the jews. Ironic, they chastise us for their mess and are complaining about how the muslims are overrunning their cities now. I wonder if they'll expect us to support their next re-location of "troublesome people".

woodchip wrote:In the end Israel may have the only option of going into Palestine and taking it over.

or vice versa

Will Robinson wrote:

null0010 wrote:..
Totally justifies it. Totally.

Who ever gave you the silly idea that there is justice between nations? There is always war and the winners get to write the treaties that the loser signs or else...

Okay, that totally justifies it. Everyone's doing it, this is the way it's always been. If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you? (Here I want you to imagine your mother mad at you.)

Neo wrote:

woodchip wrote:In the end Israel may have the only option of going into Palestine and taking it over.

or vice versa

they may try, but they'll never succeed.

null0010 wrote:...
Okay, that totally justifies it. Everyone's doing it, this is the way it's always been. If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?
...

You are just trying to be obtuse I believe but in the odd chance that you really are just easily confused, here:
I didn't offer rationalization for the way things are I merely pointed out that your perceptions must be skewed in order for your comment to make sense. You tried to make a sarcastic point but it fails miserably because there is no inherent justice to world politics or border disputes etc. etc.

From the first time a Neanderthal bonked some other Gieco capable homosapien on the head to establish his territory right on up to today, it is the ability to back up ones diplomacy with force that makes anyone else pay any mind to it. Without the ability to deliver a punishing attack diplomacy is no different than the rantings of a drooling mental patient wearing his underwear on the outside of his pants living in a cardboard box on the sidewalk instructing passersby about proper etiquette to greet the coming of the Sumerians mothership. No one listens to a word he says! However, give the guy enough firepower and the will to use it and he can become the country's new de facto dictator.

That doesn't make it acceptable, right, justified, righteous, correct, or anything of that nature, and it doesn't mean that we should let it continue.

null0010 wrote:That doesn't make it acceptable, right, justified, righteous, correct, or anything of that nature, and it doesn't mean that we should let it continue.

Lol! I don't enjoy gravity when it bounces me off the turf either but I have realistic ways of dealing with that which I can not control. So what kind of diplomatic effort do you think would work?

All my solutions take for granted that people are not or at least try not to be self-obsessed morons, so I'll have to get back to you.

null0010 wrote:All my solutions take for granted that people are not or at least try not to be self-obsessed morons,

This is the part where I realized you didn’t understand the problem.

Spidey wrote:

null0010 wrote:All my solutions take for granted that people are not or at least try not to be self-obsessed morons,

This is the part where I realized you didn’t understand the problem.

Think of it this way for a minute.
If you have your own belief system, your values based on that, and hundreds of generations of holding to that custom. All your law and expectations of peoples responsibilities to it and/or your god come completely and soley from that foundation of beliefs and customs and then some outsider comes along and says you have to change what you're doing and accept their ways which contradict your beliefs to the very core...
And the reason given, if not spoken outright, certainly implied, that you should comply because unlike you they are not self obsessed morons...

Now pull back and get a view of the whole globe and realize there are numerous cultures/countries equally in complete belief they are right and you are wrong.

Standing in the light of that your confidence that you are not self obsessed or a moron seems to be an insignificant bit of hubris that comes off quite self obsessed! And any kind of diplomacy that depends on that confident position you have taken as its engine is going to change nothing with regards to how the worlds nations protect, feed and fuel themselves.

Smug is not carrying a big stick nor is it walking softly, it's more like that guy in the bar who invariably gets drunk, gets mean and then gets beat up and most of the people watching shrug 'WTF did he do that for?' and then go back about their happy time without giving him another thought.

CUDA wrote:

Neo wrote:

woodchip wrote:In the end Israel may have the only option of going into Palestine and taking it over.

or vice versa

they may try, but they'll never succeed.

If Iran gets involved they might ^_~

Bloody Israelis!!!

Flabby Chick wrote:Bloody Israelis!!!

Hi Flabby! Hows life on the farm?

When talking about modern Israel, I think you have to start in at least the 1880s. It's not like a bunch of Jews showed up in 1948 and were like \"OMG yoink\". There had been land purchases and intentional migrations going on for decades, as well as conflict over said purchases/migrations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_lan ... _Palestine

Yeah, they've definitely got their priorities straight... especially since they say they're spiritual x_x

I suspect Lex Luthor might have escaped from prison somehow >_>